Pleased to be making with the levity in the midst of gravitas.

Actually Draginol, that's still not true, I'm not sure how old you were during the Vietnam war, but I can remember people in my hometown being VERY upset over the draft, and that was before deferments for college students was lifted.

Jeb, please re-read what I said. I said that college students didn't start getting ticked off until THEY got drafted.  Obviously people in your home town would be getting ticked if they were getting drafted.  That's the whole idea - those getting drafted and their families have a vested interest in not liking it. I wouldn't like to get drafted either.

But the college campus mass protests didn't begin until THEY started to get drafted. That's what I was getting at.

BTW, Kingbee, we have different thresholds I suspect on what we consider "mass protests". ONe could argue that there are big protests against this current war. But the huge, anti-war movement that ultimately brought an end to the US's involvement in the Vietnam war didn't begin UNTIL after college deferments went away. There are *always* some people who protest any given thing obviously.

It certainly would *not* be healthy for a great many of us. Lets take the thugs off the street and just *give* them military grade weapons and explosives! Thank but no thanks from this NCO.

You know, I think it would be healthy IF everyone served two years for their country in some fashion, however...

I agree with this, but not in the way I think you mean it. You see, the guy who picks up your trash, he's servicing his country. The guy who sells you food, he's servicing his country. I believe everyone should, in their own rational self-interest, provide services or products of value to the country for which they receive value. This DOES NOT involve any forced participation on the part of the government, unless the country is demonstrably in danger of being attacked or taken over by a foreign power. There will always be people who will choose to defend this country, or serve in some form of government, so long as this country remains something worth fighting for, something that they get value from. And the more this country has to offer it's people in terms of freedom, the more people will be willing to fight to retain that which is in their interest.

I believe many people are actually deterred from being productive (and thus serving others in the country) because of the "safety net" culture that we have created.

VES

But the huge, anti-war movement that ultimately brought an end to the US's involvement in the Vietnam war didn't begin UNTIL after college deferments went away

the antiwar movement is an entirely different thing than the public events it organized. there were large (10,000-250,000) participants in various places between 1966 and 1969. the sss lotteries which replaced the student deferment went into effect in lat 1969 (november as i remember). protest gatherings began a quick decline following the murder of students by national guard troops at kent state in may 1970. for the record, the port huron statement around which the antiwar movement coalesced was authored and published in 1962.

the great majority of student antiwar activists was motivated by what was going on in vietnam rather than concern about the draft. one of the key issues (and this isnt an opinion or a recap of someones historical research..its anecdotal but firsthand) was class disparity that protected white middleclass kids who were able to afford college and put those who didnt have the same advantages in jeopardy. two days after receiving notification i'd scored high enough to justify my student deferment, i wrote my draft board and very clearly stated my opposition to the war and to the gross unfairness of the selective service process. since i was living in a rural part of indiana when i registered, that resulted in an invitation to meet with the draft board there after which my deferment was rescinded. it was a private act in which i still take a measure of pride because it wasnt about me...it was about trying to prevent senseless death and destruction of my generation.

id be much more proud if i could say it succeeded but everyone who lived in the terrible shadow of that war was damaged to some extent.

It certainly would *not* be healthy for a great many of us. Lets take the thugs off the street and just *give* them military grade weapons and explosives! Thank but no thanks from this NCO.

Agreed.  We have enough losers in the military as it is (read about Abu Ghraib if you need clarification)...we sure as hell don't need any more.  Grey and my husband have to deal with their fair share of JEEPs as it is without forcing kids to enlist.

At this point I tend to ignore anything issuing forth from Rangel.

Dharma -- I take it JEEP is an acronym. Mind expanding that for us military-challenged?

The only JEEP I know about is the car and it got it's name as a corruption of GP, General Purpose.

Greywar, one could argue, and people have, that the Thugs in today's society tend to enlist anyway, it gives them an outlet for their aggression, besides, military discipline is supposed to cure them of the desire to go off and shoot everything in sight.

Cheers

I think it's "Just Enough Education to Perform"

Thanks for the article and the link! It is definitely worthwhile letting our represetatives know that we do not support this in any way, if we don't. Our government has a funny way right now of slipping things in very quietly. And I can't see the logic in thinking this is a scare tactic. There are plenty of protests going on, plenty of arguments against the war. The more people say it's dead and not to worry, the more I tend to check it out.

As many of you concur the bill has a snowball's chance in hell. But isn't it wonderful that we are now a superpower without any truly tough wars to take on, and we can therefore be smug about a draft since there's an abundance of the poor to "volunteer" thinking, after all, there won't be any uncontrollable conflict and can pick up a few bucks and matching ones for further education?

Where did all the ballistic flag wavers go? Or do these "patriots" offer to hold one's coat while he fights?

stevendadalus: I'm sorry, who is smug? Oddly, I'm not aware of the fact that military service slacked off after 9/11, when it was obvious that there was gonna be conflict. Was Pat Tillman poor and ignorant? The characterization that our military is full of the ignorant "poor" is a testament to how some of the liberal elitists in this country define "poor" and "ignorant".

Liberals take advantage of the fact that no one at 18 or 20 years old is gonna figure in the upper end of the economic scale. They also take advantage of the fact that the military offers resources and education for those that wouldn't often be able to afford them. So when Hispanics or African Americans take advantage of the system they call such incentive "bait", and when middle-upper class 18 year olds join they are statistically "poor" because they haven't had any time to accumulate wealth.

Of the millions who have passed through the US military in the last 100 years, how many have been killed? It is a very, very small slice of a percent. The assumption that people go to the military to die, or are recruited to die is ignorant. If you take that attitude you have more reason to think that you go to your car to die. You have a much better chance of being killed because you are in your car as you have being killed because you are a member of the military. That doesn't mean car companies sell you a car to kill you, nor is the government's expectation that members of the military will be killed.

To sum up, Steve's attitude just degrades the people that join because they don't figure into a high tax bracket, and degrades racial minorities as "low class". I love how liberals in all their attempts to show the pain of the world just end up degrading those they are trying to help. Goes to show how coldly statistical and ignorant political "caring" can be.

Where did all the ballistic flag wavers go? Or do these "patriots" offer to hold one's coat while he fights?

Who on here was calling for a draft before that has now changed their position? You are implying some contradiction in character so you must have some evidence of this.

VES

jeez i was mistaken again. i was under the ludicrous misaprehension that stevendedalus was sincerely reproaching the ultranationationalists, sunshine patriot actors and wannabe imperialists who put everyone in this country in harms way by advancing an ill-conceived regime-change agenda requiring others to take up arms while they sit back and grow wealthy.. i'm appalled by how easily theyre able to successfully delude the unwary with concepts that directly contradict longstanding respected conservative principles.. goes to show how cynical and self-serving the so-called "compassionate" can be.

Kingbee,

If that was a response to my inquiry, the inquiry still stands.

Since Steven said this on this forum, it must be that he's reproaching people on this forum ( as opposed to the general public who neither know of his reproach nor can defend against it). That being the case, I think his "reproach" could easily be evidenced if it is accurate.

VES

rationalcop...i was responding to bakerstreet's take on stevendedalus' statement.

easy to get confused at this point.. youre completely correct (in my opinion) as to determining basis for and validity of steven's post.

Kingbee... thanks for the clarification.

VES

JEEP = Junior Enlisted Expendable Personnel.

Just Enough Education to Perform...never heard that one before...but I still like the AF's version better.