Americans don't want Low Skilled Jobs?

I don't think that "there are jobs that Americans won't do" is reason enough to sign an Amnesty bill, but that's not the point here:

It is my belief that Americans won't do those jobs because Americans believe that they have a right to certain things, like health insurance, sick days, etc. Americans, largely because of Unionized Labor, have become accustomed to priveledges that are not part of what a tomato farmer can pay his workers. Not all Americans refuse to do these jobs, but a majority do because they believe that they deserve these accomadations.

If a farmer can pay a Mexican worker, who will do the job, and do it well, for minimum wage without benefits, and he's the only one who is willing to do it, then he gets the job. It's a supply and demand market, nothing more. There is a low supply of American workers willing to pick tomatos, so instead, the farmer hires Mexicans, who are in high supply. Simple economics.

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Also, this may be more of a technical curiousity, but I find it hard to believe that people are still picking onions. I believe that some form of a potato/onion harvester has been in production since the early 70s.

If a farmer can pay a Mexican worker, who will do the job, and do it well, for minimum wage without benefits, and he's the only one who is willing to do it, then he gets the job. It's a supply and demand market, nothing more. There is a low supply of American workers willing to pick tomatos, so instead, the farmer hires Mexicans, who are in high supply. Simple economics.

And that is the crux of the problem.  Many americans would do those jobs if the pay was there.  But Higher pay (benefits are figured into the pay in this example) means higher prices.  So with the "slap on the wrist" fines that are imposed for hiring illegals, the growers see more incentive to keep prices low (they are in a very competitive market) and hire the illegals.

But that is not really the issue of all of this any way.  A guest worker program (part of the current and past bills) would accomplish the goal of keeping prices low, and not hiring illegals.  And I dont see a lot of opposition to that part of the bill.  The opposition is to the part that confers citizenship status on the guest workers with the only qualification (of significance) that they were here on a certain date - regardless of the laws broken to get to that qualification.

I liken that mentality to the bank robber who uses his ill gotten gains to pay for a top notch defense attorney.  Sure, now he can afford it since he stole the money.  But we do have laws against that, and a bank robber (or a corporate exec who embezzles money) cannot use their illegal gains to do that.  The current bill allows that.

Just an FYI for Peeble:  I dont know about onions, but there are machines that have eliminated many jobs picking potatoes and Tomatoes since the 70s (when the last big round up and deportation of illegals was done).  So yes, sometimes there is short term pain (no workers to pick produce), that forces other solutions - mechanization.

Beeble and Doc,

Yes there are machines that can harvest the produce but the come with a one time harvesting. That would be a solution for a crop like onions because they are a one time harvest. I imagine that these are out there but I know in the area I grew up they are still doing this manually. Secondly there are numerous crops out there that are multiple harvests, such as tomatoes, cucumbers, green beans, sweet peas, peppers, cantaloupe, watermelons, etc that would not be in the farmer's best interest to use a harvester for one time harvest. Many farmers in the area I grew up still hire laborers to pick the tomatoes by hand and then for the final harvest they use a harvester as it kills the plant.



I don't know Doc. I used to think that but I think this is an excuse not a reason.



But is this a realistic belief?



I agree Doc.

Ever wondered why store tomatoes have no taste these days? They were bred (in many areas) to be harvested by machines. Those ugly tomatoes you see are the hand picked ones (and have the flavor). It is not only the tomatoes that were changed genetically (through cross breeding and such - not through GM), but the whole growing process itself.

Look at the multitude of articles bemoaning the fact that teenagers cannot find work because they are competing with adults in the job market (one example: WWW Link), then tell me illegals are taking jobs Americans don't want (here's a hint for the clueless: many teens don't count in unemployment numbers because they don't have the time in to claim unemployment). The truth is, many of the jobs illegals take are jobs Americans don't only want; they NEED.

Side note: How'd we get from being the land of opportunity to being the land of the free lunch?

Gid, can you clarify this statement please?



Out of sheer ignorance and a dab of arrogance

I thought I did. I even provided a linked article.

Teenagers right now in many areas CANNOT GET jobs, because they're competing with adults. What jobs would teens be competing with adults to get? Minimum wage jobs, the kind we allegedly "don't want", or, in the case of some industries (construction, landscaping, anyone?) must take because illegals own a monopoly on the industry.

I've also detailed the meat packing plant less than an hour from here that hired ONLY illegals. As a result, I was throwing papers for two years because I couldn't find an unskilled labor position that could equal my pay as a news carrier. The pay at the packing plant? $11.90 an hour, not the minimum wage that people pretend to be the only jobs illegals take.

Thanks for clearing that up, Gid.



I don't know about which plant you are talking about but I have a shirt-tailed relative that works in one and tells me the immigration inspections are a joke. All visitations are announced and done on non-peak periods.

This one was raided a few months ago in the TX Panhandle.

But you're right, immigration inspections ARE a joke.

Ain't nothing like the movie, "Born in East LA."

I spent one day detassling corn as a teenager. Let me tell you I am not a wuss. Okay I am a wuss. It is hard, hot, sweaty and buggy work. Unless you are lucky enough to work at a organic farm you are also breathing in and touching herbacides, pesticides and fertilizers. Most harvesting, agriculture type jobs pay piece meal not by the hour example from forty cents for 32 pounds of tomatoes. That is a lot of hard work for not very much money. So you could work all day and make very little and admittedly if you are very prolific you could make considerably more than minimum wage. There is a reason that the whole family is out there working. If just dad went to work there is no way they could make it.

My dad picked tomatoes. I know things have changed significantly because this was probably over 40 years ago but the farmers would offer them cold sodas and overcharge extravagantly and take this from their pay. After the first payday my dad and the other workers learned to bring a thermos of water etc. Of course, farming is no different than any other industry some farmers treat their workers well and others don't.

Side note: How'd we get from being the land of opportunity to being the land of the free lunch?

How is it a free lunch if they are working their butts off to make any money?

As far as the lack of jobs for teenagers, that may be true in Boston but where I live there are help wanted signs all over the place.

If I needed to feed my family there is nothing I would turn my nose up at. Including picking strawberries {which I did one summer up by Mount Hood, Oregon, I also thinned apples and pears, all hard sweaty work with little pay, but little pay was better than no money at all.

Hey I got featured? YAY!

I feel cool now



yep, I've done some tough jobs too. MM, would you also agree that by doing some of those jobs you appreciate the better jobs with benies? I know I do!



Back in 1994 when I was still in High school we had a farm. This one Mexican wanted to be paid by the sack of onions he topped. My dad offered 60 cents for a 60 pound sack (two 5 gallon buckets full). That guy was so efficient that he actually made about $13.00/hr. This was shortly before minimum wage went up.



Loca, can you describe the area you live with regards to demographics?

You work long hours 8-10 hrs a day, 6 days a week.You don't get paid sick days.You don't get paid or work on rainy days.You don't get health insurance.You don't get paid vacations.You work under the HOT summer sun.You pick such things like onions where your hands smell like onions for days afterwards or tomatoes where your hands are green for a few days after.There isn't much future in working up the corporate ladder.Some on the job training (need to make sure they pick items when they are ripe).It is a seasonal job.And you don't make much more than minimum wage.

This doesn't sound like the kind of job most people dream of these days. But there was a time when people killed for jobs like these. But here's a little something that some may not know. Puerto Rico has a large produce industry. I have seen everything from tomatoes, to green peppers, plantains and even watermelons. Most of the system is done with machines, the preparing or the land, the watering and the pesticides. But the sticks that hold the tomato vines, the seeds and the picking are done manually. People line up for these, what today is considered, insane jobs under the tropical burning sun. As far as I know most of the workers are Puertoricans, I'm sure that in some occacions some are illegal immigrants from Dominican Republic, Haiti and even Cuba. But it's a job mostly done by locals. Puerto Rico is not exactly New York or Miami. At least half of the country still lives in the past, the closest thing to a Metro city is San Juan and even there you can find areas you would only think to find in the poorest of areas.

Can the average American survive without all these illegal immigrants doing the jobs that are claimed not to be wanted by them? I believe we can. MY proof? Simple, when I was a teenager fast food places was the place to be. It was a hang out, away from parents. In most cases the only adults around were the managers of the stores and some customers. These jobs were usually done by kinds looking for extra money for school, college, wanting the latest fashion and/or looking for a nice car to buy and fix up with a stereo and a nice engine. I worked in a fast food once, a KFC. Worked for 2 years and eventually became a supervisor. I was 18 when I started, fresh out of high school. Almost all of the people who worked with me were teens, the same as most other fast food I went to. Try going to a fast food place these days. Hell I can barely find people who's first language is English anymore. Teens? Customers maube half the time. Employees? Hardly. I myself had a part time at UPS just a few months ago, I let it go once my wife started working. I figured her full-time check would make up for my part time one and it gave me more time with my family. Boy was I ever wrong, I am now in the process of looking for another part time. I could try the old job but I quite for several reasons, for 1 it was too stressful, it was pretty far and was killing me with gas, it didn't pay much since I would only do 3.5 hours a day and I had to wait almost 2 hours after my morning job before I started the part time. Imagine having to sit in your car for almost 2 hours under the hot Florida sun till you had to start work only to work 3.5 hours, get home late, barely get to see you kids all this for just $150 a week, no benefits since I was only a temp. It just plain sucked.

My point is that while jobs like tomato picking is not a job most Americans would die for, I still think that it's more about the farmers (and any company who hires illegal immigrants) looking to save and make more money with cheaper labor who doesn't care about benefits. Think about it, you're not gonna tell me that the average farmer makes just enough money to pay bills, pay the mortgage, pay for supplies and just a few bucks left for entertainment. I seriously doubt that. I'm sure they make great profits, profits that would probably allow them to pay a little more and maybe even help offer some kind of benefit. But what do we do? Nothing, we just take it.

Side note: How'd we get from being the land of opportunity to being the land of the free lunch? How is it a free lunch if they are working their butts off to make any money?

You missed his inferrance.  He was not talking about illegal aliens, but Americans who supposedly want Benefits so will not work for hourly wages only.

I live 20 miles west of Fort Worth. It is a growing community. New homes, new businesses, new restaurants, new stores etc. There definately isn't a shortage of jobs. These jobs don't pay the big bucks but there are jobs here.

There are plenty of jobs here as well, Loca, so I won't dispute your statement. But apparently that isn't universally true across the US.

The market itself is the ultimate arbiter of these things, but the playing field is no longer level because due to an overwhelming supply of cheap, illegal labor, the business owner can have his cake and eat it too, keeping huge profits for himself by denying a decent enough wage to attract a citizen worker.

The real fence should be workplace enforcement. Of course, when INS finally would raid the workplaces there would be a huge outcry from the businesses. Money talks. The illegal immigrants don't have that power to shut down INS raids but the businesses do.

The black unemployment figures are incredibly high. I really don't know how much of it can attributed to illegal immigrants. There is still discrimination in hiring. This study showed that employers were as likely to hire a white worker with a criminal record as a black worker without a criminal record. Link

I don't think so LW. I understand where you are coming from but I was refutting against Bush, and others who were saying that they do the jobs Americans don't 'WANT.'

As for your point, you are correct. There are already guest worker programs. There are already laws on the books for protecting and securing our borders. There are already laws on the books for employers hiring illegals. There are already laws on the books for bringing in labor from outside of the country by having to show to they are jobs Americans "can't do" (areas of specialization). Most of these were address in 1986. The bottom line is we just need to get an Administration to ENFORCE THEM!!!



If we have a surplus of labor in the boston area and a deficit of labor in the Ft Worth. The question is, why don't those in the surplus get off their sedentary butts and go where there are jobs are?

I can field this one, A-D, because I've been there.

Does it escape your attention that it takes MONEY to relocate? Even in an are with a low cost of living, it almost takes a MINIMUM of $1500, which is almost two monthsl salary for a minimum wage worker (this estimate was calculated figuring $500/month rent with an equal amount for deposit, $200 in utility deposits, $300 for truck rental/gas, additional expenses. This number is probably LOW).

But Gid as LW indirectly mentioned. If you need work to produce (ie construction, etc) as an employer you may have to add moving incentives if you can't find local labor.

Loca, such laws exist but aren't being enforced. This is why many of us were so very much opposed to this Immigration bill. We don't need immigration reform just ENFORCING the EXISTING LAWS. Both Ike and Reagan addressed this issues we just have slacked.

Well coming from a teenager in need of employment, I am having a very hard time finding a summer job. Everywhere I've applied doesn't take just summer employment. Now I already have a job and I'm looking for evenings and weekends, so a farming job wouldn't really work for my particular case, unless it was only on weekends. But it is really hard to find any just summer jobs, or at least it is for me.

Amanda thanks for your insight. Can you give us more regarding to your perspective of what you see? Do you find/feel that you are competing against the retired age? Do you find/feel that you are competing against the illegals? Let us know.