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Domestic Intelligence

Are the DHS and FBI enough?

June 12, 2007 9:58:32 AM from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
The existing law enforcement is there: along with the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), many government agencies work long hours to keep Americans safe. The Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), US Customs, and the Coast Guard have been rolled into the nascent Department of Homeland Security (DHS). Though not intended to be a domestic intelligence service as such, the inclusion of the organizations mentioned have made intelligence part of DHS' daily operations.

Ironically, the effectiveness of these organizations have actually been reduced since they were brought under the umbrella of the DHS. After the embarrassing debacle of Katrina response, DHS internal auditors took a look at the Department's best practices and found them wanting. According to a report from the DHS Inspector General, the DHS has been hamstrung by its own vast mandate:

After the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, DHS’ prevention and preparedness for terrorism have overshadowed that for natural hazards, both in perception and in application. Although an “all-hazards” approach can address preparedness needs common to both man-made and natural events, DHS must ensure that all four phases of emergency management – preparedness, response, recovery, and mitigation – are managed throughout the department on an all-hazards basis. (Skinner 2006)

Because there are so many facets of Homeland Security, it is very improbable that one agency, however large and well-funded, can address all needs adequately.

These law enforcement agencies are backed up by internationally-focused intelligence services, like the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the National Security Agency (NSA). However, these agencies work almost exclusively abroad, with the FBI handling the vast bulk of domestic intelligence collection. When international terror threats are on their way back to the US, information is shared on a timely basis with domestic law enforcement; the FBI then picks up the trail.

Other nations have domestic intelligence services in order to fight terrorism. Germany has "parallel federal and state intelligence and law enforcement organizations, and both are under their respective ministries of the interior" (GAO 2000). Israel's Mossad is a prime example of an aggressive governmental intelligence arm. Israel is evidence of a nation who had "developed policies to combat terrorism through their experience with various terrorist groups" (Ibid.). I am not advocating that the FBI suddenly ratchets up its aggressiveness to match the ferocity and efficiency of Mossad, but if one wants to isolate an effective anti-terrorist organization, look no further.

There would be a great outcry of "Big Brother" if a domestic intelligence service was formed. Such paranoia police would complain about infringed civil liberties and restricted personal freedoms. Even now, the news is filled with complaints about airline security restrictions and government programs to thwart terrorists. However, the idea and political will are there. Since 9/11, there has been such a groundswell of interest and urgency regarding the formation of a domestic intelligence service.

What do you feel are the advantages and disadvantages of creating a national domestic intelligence service?

Sources:
General Accounting Office, "Combating Terrorism: How Five Foreign Countries Are Organized to Combat Terrorism", April 2000.
Skinner, Richard L. "A Performance Review of FEMA’s Disaster Management Activities in Response to Hurricane Katrina." Department of Homeland Security Office of Inspector General, Mar 2006. Internet: Link, accessed 12 Jun 2007.
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singrdave
singrdave
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Reply #1 June 12, 2007 10:00:28 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
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singrdave
Dr Guy
Join Date 09/2004
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Reply #2 June 12, 2007 10:54:32 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Scientist tell us that one of the facets that separate man from beast is the ability to handle the concept of time.  As in planning for a future and living for it. 

Sadly, the lessons we have learned in the last 6 years is that although most people understand the concept of time, few can see beyond a few days or weeks.  Such is the real lesson of 9-11.

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singrdave
greywar
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Reply #3 June 12, 2007 11:29:02 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Sadly, the lessons we have learned in the last 6 years is that although most people understand the concept of time, few can see beyond a few days or weeks. Such is the real lesson of 9-11.

 

True enough, but there is a real concern even among intel folks about the viability of a domestic intelligence service. Gathering intel over nearly 300 million citizens is a dauntng task that would produce very little intel in relation to amounts of cash necessary. This lack of immediate (or even long-term) results could well end up in a  push for the intelligence apparatus to also prosecute normal crimes. Once you cross that line (from defending against terror to using a nation-wide surveillance apparatus against normal crime) it becomes a very tricky issue and a slippery slope indeed.

 

Think politics are awful now? Wait until a nation-wide surveillance system is in a large percentage of your private life. Trust me, you don't want me or mine listening and looking at you without an exceptionally good reason. The power is far too easy to abuse and with a large bureaocracy to cover abuse it is a nightmare scenario to me (and I'm a fascist, imagine how it looks to liberals).   

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singrdave
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Reply #4 June 12, 2007 11:40:38 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Grey:
the viability of a domestic intelligence service

The power is far too easy to abuse and with a large bureaucracy to cover abuse

Whatever is created (if at all) should never fall under the smothering blanket of the DHS. This needs to be independent of existing agencies and departments but with oversight from somewhere. And there is always the danger of abuse: a 24/7 Big Brother-esque surveillance would be both unpalatable to civil liberties activists and constitutional scholars alike.

I'm an ideas man with aspirations to "Grand Strategist". I'll let others hammer out the details.
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singrdave
Dr Guy
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Reply #5 June 12, 2007 11:42:52 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Think politics are awful now? Wait until a nation-wide surveillance system is in a large percentage of your private life. Trust me, you don't want me or mine listening and looking at you without an exceptionally good reason. The power is far too easy to abuse and with a large bureaocracy to cover abuse it is a nightmare scenario to me (and I'm a fascist, imagine how it looks to liberals).

I agree with what you say.  It is a fine line that is drawn, and must be maintained.  But it does no good to yell "wolf" when the programs are not spying on us domestically, but foreigners (who we may or may not be calling).  That is what they are yelling.  And in the same breath, yelling that "someone knew" about 9-11 and should have done something.  Regardless of whether anyone knew before 9-11, the way they are yelping now, means that we will have another one since we cannot even spy on our enemies without the MSM warning them of the fact.

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singrdave
greywar
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Reply #6 June 12, 2007 12:04:42 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

But it does no good to yell "wolf" when the programs are not spying on us domestically, but foreigners (who we may or may not be calling).

 

 

Yes, the problem actually lies in a US Code for Intel Oversight which defines foreigners who are in the US as "U.S. Person" which in terms of intelligence oversight and restrictions basically places them in the same category as U.S. Citizens (can't intentionally collect, can't keep, can't process). This needs to change and would be a huge boost for intel collection. The FBI and other services are hamstrung by the U.S. Persons definition. No need for a new agency, just take the cuffs off of our existing agencies.

 

 

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singrdave
CharlesCS
Join Date 08/2006
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Reply #7 June 12, 2007 2:21:48 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Has anyone noticed we are fighting a war in 2 fronts? And I don't mean Iraq and Afghanistan. I mean we have the same problem fighting the wars in the Middle East as we do at home. We are trying to defeat an enemy that using average citizens to hide in and we are so worried about not hurting a single innocent person that we fail to catch the enemy because he looks like the average citizen. Just like our soldiers won't just shot anyone in fear of killing an innocent person, our law enforcement agents can't just pick up any Joe from the street because there will also be an outcry of abuse of innocent.

How are we to stop or slow down crime or militants if we have to wait for them to shoot first?
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singrdave
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Reply #8 June 12, 2007 2:33:54 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
How are we to stop or slow down crime or militants if we have to wait for them to shoot first?

Great point, Charles. But the converse is also true: how are we to stop or slow down crime or militants beforehand without impinging on their civil liberties?

Besides, the American legal system is based on punishment for crime, not crime prevention. Deterrents are always couched in the "threat of punishment" factor -- get rid of that fear by making the perpetrator a fanatic who only cares about eternal reward, not what man can do.
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singrdave
CharlesCS
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Reply #9 June 13, 2007 11:56:56 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Great point, Charles. But the converse is also true: how are we to stop or slow down crime or militants beforehand without impinging on their civil liberties?


So true. Which is what makes this whole point point....less.

Besides, the American legal system is based on punishment for crime, not crime prevention. Deterrents are always couched in the "threat of punishment" factor -- get rid of that fear by making the perpetrator a fanatic who only cares about eternal reward, not what man can do.


Another contradiction onto itself of the US legal system. A system designed to defend the innocent and punish the guilty often punishes the innocent and defends the guilty. How we can be an "American legal system is based on punishment for crime, not crime prevention." while at the same time being a "innocent till proven guilty" is beyond me. We can't be innocent till proven guilty while a cop puts me under arrest because I fit the profile of a recent child rapist. I don't even know why they are called defese lawyers, they are not defending my innocence, they are trying to prove it. Defending means that it's seen, proving means they have to make everyone else see it.
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singrdave
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Reply #10 June 13, 2007 8:42:37 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Which is what makes this whole point point....less.

I thought that WAS the point of this. How can we prevent crime without impinging on civil liberties?
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singrdave
CharlesCS
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Reply #11 June 14, 2007 9:55:46 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I thought that WAS the point of this. How can we prevent crime without impinging on civil liberties?


I guess that would all depend on how bad people want crimes to be prevented. It's already a fact that there is no way to get 100% approval of anything. There will always be someone who doesn't like the idea. But we will have to accept, someday, the lose of certain freedom if we deem crime prevention to be very important. The real problem is most peoples obssesion with 100% privacy. This is literally impossible to accomplish yet it is always what makes crime prevention more dificult to do. We also have the problem of personal gain by any means. Taking away some privacy rights could lead to people abusing the idea for personal gain. And in turn we will end up trying to create a law that can protect people from those who look to gain something from this abuse, which would in turn take us back to square one.

One thing I have noticed here in the US is the constant contradiction on how people don't like the idea of personal lojacks (if you know what I mean) because they don't like the idea that the Gov't or anyone for that matter would know where they are 24/7 while at the same time crying because when a child or a person is lost or kidnapped they would probably wish they had the lojack type system to be able to find them.
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singrdave
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Reply #12 June 18, 2007 12:18:52 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
One thing I have noticed here in the US is the constant contradiction on how people don't like the idea of personal lojacks (if you know what I mean) because they don't like the idea that the Gov't or anyone for that matter would know where they are 24/7 while at the same time crying because when a child or a person is lost or kidnapped they would probably wish they had the lojack type system to be able to find them.

You're right... people want the government out of their lives until they need the government's help.
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singrdave
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Reply #13 June 29, 2007 6:32:11 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
But wait: there is no terrorism. It's all just made up to control us.
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