MarcusCardiff MarcusCardiff

How can we all be athiests

How can we all be athiests

In a world where "sin" means all.

Where do other religions lie,

I hope that this world can understand all possible religions,

I am an athiest, I believe in no religion, but I respect every single belief.

This is hard to make simple, but Everyone has the right to think what they may

Thats what it means to me,

Why is this argument so compilcated, Why are all "other" religions so "hated"


I cant even explain it too myself,


Marcus,
344,270 views 471 replies
Reply #301 Top
Ah, I see what you mean. The theory basis itself on the assumption that all life ultimately derives from a single common ancestor, which is not necessarily true (gets into the various theories of arbiogenesis though, and I'm no expert there) .


Well, that's what's being taught in schools. Pretty much everybody who graduates from High School or College will be taught that they come from a single ancestor.

Yeah, yet the biology of pretty much any organism shows a distinct history of advancement.


Yes, we age over our lifespans, and have different capabilities at different ages. This is largely preprogrammed into our DNA.

To be honest, it's not the use of mutation I was challenging, but the idea that it's completely random. You can't for example expect a human to be born with a trunk or tentacles, there's a limit to precisely how far DNA can bend between generations.


DNA does not "bend" at all between generations. It selects from a gene pool.

Of course we don't have trunks: That information is not in our DNA.

And since that information is not in our DNA, we must somehow produce that information. Most scientists point to mutations as a source of new information, as normal variation only selects existing information and does not create new information.

That's the point. The day appears to go missing sometime between the early Greek translations and the official adoption of the religion by Rome


Which I care about - why? Yes, human translations are often imperfect.

In modern communication it isn't, but in the bible it's not as common.


I take it you haven't read Ecclesiastes, or the psalms or proverbs . . .

Describing the same thing in different ways is very much common in the Bible.

but to be honest the writing tends to veer wildly from the over detailed to what could best be described as 'hastily scrawled'.


Seriously, that's opinion. I'm not going to take your word for it.

The problem being the original myths predate the biblical account by around two thousand years, and the later accounts would have the flood occuring a few thousand years after Noah built the Ark.


If our dating methods are accurate.

If they were recording the same event, we would expect to find more agreement, even if just a narrower possible range, for the time of the flood.


The other problem is that, while flood stories can be found throughout the world, not everyone mentions a huge flood (which would be strange if it was worldwide), nor is there any agreement on the time it occurred


As you've said yourself, humans can often distort things - especially after the Tower of Babel incident. So are humans reliable or not?! Make up your mind.

Geez, after all that time trying to convince me that humans are UNreliable, all the sudden they become reliable when talking about flood accounts?! What gives?

nor in fact enough water present on Earth to manage it.


How about on & in?

You'd likely be better off with some of the books dealing specifically with the historic and archeological record of the bible.


It's not like the conservatives haven't studied and written about the historic and archaeological records. This looks like it's going to turn out to quickly be a matter of interpretation.

The final problem is that there is no geologic evidence of a worldwide flood


Ever hear of "geological record"? You know, the layers of rock with fossils in them?

It goes kinda like this:

Old Earth believers: History of the Earth

Young Earth believers: Record of the Flood

This boils down to interpretation as well.

Anything which is possible (no matter how unlikely) must eventually occur if the universe is infinite, since it has infinite time to do it in.


Which I call "convenient."

In addition, this smells of the gambler's fallacy.

The problem is it's a rather compelling argument.


. . . except that it's not. AFAIK most theories about the age of the Earth/Universe center around a finite amount of time, even if it's a long period of time.

And it still sounds very convenient.

Even if you don't accept macro-evolution, micro-evolution would eventually lead to a species which is completely different from it's forebears over a sufficiently long timescale.


"macro" and "micro" evolution are very poor terms. It is well known that there are severe limits to how far you can push a species if you do not include mutations. You can only select information that is in the existing gene pool - you cannot create new information without mutations.

The bible never mentions the age of Earth, those who posit a young Earth theory base it on the geneaologies in the bible (i.e. they assume that Earth cannot be more than a week older than Adam).


Not an unreasonable assumption from a straightforward reading of the account.

The thing is, these people often also argue that people lived much longer back then due to a more pure genetic code. Kind of screws up the whole theory if Adam happened to be a couple of millenia old before he had kids


Okay, if we have a week long creation, how did we suddenly get a millennia??
Reply #302 Top
if u had friends, ud know wut i was talking about


more insults? some friend you must be. when i'm with my friends, i try to show them respect by giving them my undivided attention and not dumbing myself down (and afront to their intelligence).

...........and no matr how many big "intemellectual" (as u so lovely put it) words u sugarcoat a sentence with, the simple meaning can mor easily be explained with a few words..............


this isn't a time saving tactic. if that were the case, why would you bother with enough periods for 4 ellipses at both ends of your sentence? both sets were superfluous in the first place. and if it were only about temporal economy, why is your writing also rife with grammatical errors (while 'lovely' can serve as an adverb, you're not using it correctly as such here).

also, if you're that unfond of big words, maybe you should be reading Nancy Drew instead of the bible. of course, i've only read English versions. if you don't mind my asking, do you read the bible in a language other than English? if so, what language?

this really isnt related to the topic but its realy heartfelt, and if ur not touched by this then u realy need to rethink ur priorities in life.......


thanks for sharing; that was a touching story, and i agree with you that anyone unmoved by it should rethink his or her priorities. but just because most people will be moved, doesn't mean mean they'll be moved to christianity. i say "god bless" to people on the streets pretty often: not because i believe in god, but because i want to comfort them. anyone who wouldn't want to give that to a child if possible is a wretched person. but wait, let me check... nope, i still don't believe in god.

Maybe we could smash open people's heads to see what's inside, but unfortunately, anyone stupid enough to resort to such desperate tactics wouldn't be capable of understanding what they found anyway; or else they wouldn't resort to violence in the first place. Monkey-magic does not work.


thankfully, now we've invented MRIs, and so far they don't even cause tumors! i remember a quote from a neurologist who was studying mollusk neurons. when asked why, he explained something to the effect that if our brains were simpler and easier to understand, we wouldn't be smart enough to understand them in the first place.
Reply #303 Top
Maybe we could smash open people's heads to see what's inside, but unfortunately, anyone stupid enough to resort to such desperate tactics wouldn't be capable of understanding what they found anyway; or else they wouldn't resort to violence in the first place. Monkey-magic does not work.


thankfully, now we've invented MRIs, and so far they don't even cause tumors! i remember a quote from a neurologist who was studying mollusk neurons. when asked why, he explained something to the effect that if our brains were simpler and easier to understand, we wouldn't be smart enough to understand them in the first place.


What a pleasant conundrum!

Ever listen to Jefferson Starship, dystopic? Very soothing at times, for me anyway.
Reply #304 Top
Ever listen to Jefferson Starship, dystopic? Very soothing at times, for me anyway.


no i haven't; i get bored with music fairly quickly so i'm always appriciative of recommendations (especially since i don't watch TV and the only radio i listen to is the occasional NPR - i love Wait Wait Don't Tell Me). i'll check some out of the music library next week; any particular albums you'd suggest?

oh yeah, i forgot a minor detail about that neurologist, that mollusk neurons are considerably bigger than those of mammals and easier to study... only a minor detail for the point i was making, though.

ever heard about boiling frogs? that's another fun allegory taken from real life.
Reply #305 Top
any particular albums you'd suggest?
I lumped all related works under the title of "Jefferson Starship" as a convenient general label. My personal preference is "The WORST of Jefferson Airplane" - There may be one or two worthwhile tracks on the other albums, but I have yet to be motivated enuff to sort through them diligently. I find that, allowing for all the many various extraneous influences on this group during their career, perhaps most of their music was not nearly as inspired as the tracks on the WORST album.

I'll check out the boiling frogs. (ewwww  )

"In loyalty to their kind, they cannot tolerate our minds...
In loyalty to our kind, we cannot tolerate their obstruction!"
- "Crown of Creation" [Worst of Jefferson Airplane]
Reply #306 Top

There was a study that was done that people that were prayed for, fared better in an illness.
I would like to see that proven, because in all the Scientific magazines and Books i have read quoting similar tests, all the tests gave results which showed that the prayed for actually got worse and had more complications. The test group was split up into three : known to be Prayed For; Bein prayed for but not knowing, and not prayed for and not knowing. The the group who weren't prayed for got better faster than th eother two groups. So I'd just like to see how benovelent this God fellow is.


Horse patties! Where is this study?


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2002901053_pray31.html

Reply #307 Top
I love how many of us assume that when we die it is game over. We can't see atoms, but science has recently shown that atoms exist. We can't know what it is like to die until it happens, with our current technology, just like we had no idea atoms existed until the development of certain technologies. Does that mean that nothing happens for us when we die? We don't have a "soul" that exists in some higher dimension?

Here is the thing..... somehow, someway, I have gotten into this life just like everyone else has gotten into theirs, somehow. Where did we come from? How did we get here into each of our lives? We transcended some previous state, even if that state was nothingness in order to be born into our present life. Why assume that the number of times we exist = 1 (i.e. this life is all we have)???? What real evidence is there to say that number of lives we have = 1? Why not number of lives = n where n is unknown?????? What is the evidence to say it = 1?? If you look at near death experiences that is testimonial evidence that number of lives does not equal 1. It is not good evidence, I know, but personally, I think it is better than the evidence provided in the Bible. But again, where did "I" (whether I am an electrical field and nothing more, a "soul" or whatever) come from??? For some darn reason, I live in this body. When the molecules, carbohydrates, lipids, DNA, etc. formed this body, somehow, someway I gained control of it or am in control of it or whatever. If someone wants to say I am not actually in control of my body, then why I am the only one who can raise my arm???


I am sure that if I eplained "atoms" to all of you 200 years ago, if you happened to live back then, that all of you would say that atoms don't exist. We can't see them, hear them, etc., so they don't exist. Many people assume there is no God because we can't see or use any other sense to directly observe God. We can't "prove" there is a God anymore than we could "prove" that atoms were real 200 years ago. But certainly there is a chance? I don't know, all of the arguments for there being no higher power I believe are realtively weak that don't answer any important questions.
Reply #308 Top
if u had friends, ud know wut i was talking about


more insults? some friend you must be. when i'm with my friends, i try to show them respect by giving them my undivided attention and not dumbing myself down (and afront to their intelligence).


I agree, this is stupid. Petty insults are uncalled for. Dystopic is providing argument just like I am. I respect him (I assume you are a guy?) for providing argument and not just calling me a stupid mother f#$$#$#. Hopefully I am respected as well for attempting to add to the discussion through argument. Petty insults like this mean you are resorting to very childish behavior. Form an argument and respond. Attack the theory and the argument and not the person.
Reply #309 Top
Petty insults are uncalled for. Dystopic is providing argument just like I am. I respect him (I assume you are a guy?) for providing argument and not just calling me a stupid mother f#$$#$#. Hopefully I am respected as well for attempting to add to the discussion through argument.


Voltaire said, "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers." Yes, i do certainly respect you; in fact, i even respect Sushistrip; otherwise i wouldn't bother pointing out his behavior to him in hopes he'd decide to modify some of it. people have been asking some of the questions we've been discussing in this forum thread for as long back as we can determine with any reasonable degree of certainty. i believe arriving at answers is far less important than looking for them. the search strengthens people and also tempers them: the difference between iron ore and Toledo steel.

and yes, i'm a guy.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2002901053_pray31.html


very interesting. especially:
Previous studies had examined the power of prayer for medical patients, with mixed results. Most did not have the statistical power to reliably detect the effects of prayer, if it had an effect.


even statistical certitude in this case isn't a huge thing. even if the study had established that prayer helps the sick, it doesn't establish causality. prayer could just as easily have a mundane psychological effect as a divine one, when it does have an effect.

here's a similar, though less discouraging, article: Buddhists 'really are happier'
Reply #310 Top
If someone wants to say I am not actually in control of my body, then why I am the only one who can raise my arm???


I'm pretty sure that if someone were to muck about in your brain and hit the right spots, they could raise your arm.

Reply #311 Top
I love how many of us assume that when we die it is game over.


well, i can't speak for everyone, but i wouldn't call this an assumption in my respect. assumptions are used to explore other propositions; i've arrived at the idea of no life after death as a scenario i consider very likley. honestly, i'd have to do a some reexamination to be able to articulate what assumptions that's based on. one i can think of is that i trust science. i don't trust every particular piece of scientific knowledge, but i trust the scientific process to gradually arrive at better understandings of the universe.

but, and this is a big but (and i cannot lie), to me there seems to be the largest body of evidence in support of something that lasts after death. after my uncle died when my mom was a teenager (long before i was born), she had a vision of him while singing in church (even though now she's a naturalistic agnostic). after my father passed away, i definately felt signs that his presence remained, at least for a while. i can't prove that these experiences are cuased by spirits or ghosts any more than i can prove that they're caused by human perception and the mind. as i've said repeatedly, i think proof and certainty and 'facts' are overrated...

even if you could 'prove' the existence of souls or god, how many people's beliefs would that change? we have this assumption that if we find the perfect words and rational reasons, we can convince anyone of anything and find that ellusive Truth with-a-capital-T.

Stanley, are you familiar with any forms of existentialism? i think you might like some of the ideas. i think they bear striking (but more anthropocentric) resemblance to the buddhist doctrine of shunyata.

one thing i thought i'd point out, not to anyone in particular, but just to emphasize: all philosophies needn't be mutually exclusive. buddhism, for example, often 'blends' with other religions and beliefs. i've met self-proclaimed Buddhist Christians and Muslims, Taoists, Hindus and atheists. "Jew-Boos" (Jewish Buddhists) seem esepcially easy to find, to such a point that it's forming a sort of sub-culture. here's an absolutely hilarious list of "Jewish Buddhist aphorisms" (i sincerely hope no one finds this offensive).
Reply #312 Top
I love how many of us assume that when we die it is game over.


I love how people demand evidence, facts, verified events etc to vertually everything except their Religion. In the latter case, almost uniquely the burdon of proof has to be on proving that a supreme Diety doesnt exist. Its a dual standard of the most classic - and wholely illogical - kind. People who greatly fear death tend to grasp at any explanation that mitigates the facts they are well aware of, but rarely admit to in public. If that gives them a form of inner peace, fine, I am the last to stop them. I cannot however subscribe to what is an arrogent turning of hopes into facts in order to avoid reality.

Somewhere out there amongst the Trillions of Galaxys, there will be Races of a form and existence so different from ours, that when we eventually come across them in the centuries to come, it will be mind blowing. Whats the betting they also have a form of belief/religion ?? I'd say very high chance. So who's Supreme Being will be the correct one ...... glad I'm not going to be around when an Inter Galactic War starts over Religious cultures, and it will, chances are any intelligent Race will be just as pocessive and arrogant about their beliefs as the Human Race is, and it will be the Middle Ages all over again. Only this time it will be Planets going poof in the name of the True Religion, not just villages/cities.

If individuals spent more time focusing on how they are supposed to live according to their religious beliefs, and less time beating the living daylights (verbal or physical) out of those who disagree with them, the Past would have been a hell of a lot more peaceful, and the future far less fraught than it will be.

But that I guess is the core nature of the so called "civilised" Race we like to pretend we are.

Regards
Zy
Reply #313 Top
buddhist doctrine of shunyata.


"Parable of the Raft (Alagaddupama Sutra), the means of crossing a river are of no more use when the goal of the other shore has been reached." [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunyata]

I hope I'll see you all, and Jimi (Hendrix), and a whole lot of other folks on the other side. It'll be great! I'll bring the ... well, I'll think of something. Who wants to bring the 'tater salad?
Reply #314 Top
refering back to my "The Fireman" story (which someone else wrote but there was no name from were i got it from =/).........if u were standing in front of a six year-old boy who was about to die and u had to say one thing to him............would u tell him that god doesnt exist and that when he dies he becomes nothing?..........or would u rather tell him that hes going to heaven, to spend and eternity with the angels and a loving, caring god???.....................

just a thought........
Reply #315 Top
There aren't just two answers there and besides, what you might or might not want to tell a dying boy doesn't make anything true. Stories like these, usually false, are fine when preaching to the converted but come off as silly and fumbling if you're not already in their court.

Part of the reason we've held onto religion is that it gives comfort against the fears of death. We don't know what happens after and an answer, any answer, can be comforting in a frightening time.
Reply #316 Top
thats the point.......when it comes right down to ur own life and ur own existence, wouldnt u like to hav some confort in that ur going somewhere when u die.......and that ur life wasnt meaningless.........and that there was a purpose to it???
Reply #317 Top
First, I'm not an athiest, I'm a pagan and have my own beliefs as far as that goes.
Second, I don't find any comfort in your concept of a god or afterlife.
Third, I don't need gods to find meaning or purpose in my life.
Finally--false comfort is just that. I'd rather have the truth.
Reply #318 Top

If someone wants to say I am not actually in control of my body, then why I am the only one who can raise my arm???


I'm pretty sure that if someone were to muck about in your brain and hit the right spots, they could raise your arm.




I could always just hit you in the elbow with a hammer and I bet it would raise. Of course I would be running away so I might not know for sure.
Reply #319 Top
Ok, ok, I understand if you activate the right part of the brain my arm will raise. But when I consciously raise my arm, how do I really generate the intial electric pulse in my brain. Its just funny how moving your limbs works. You "just" do it! So weird.... Whats weirder is I can simply think about raising my arm, and yet not do it of course. Now, where exactly does that inital electric pulse come from when you decide to raise your arm...... When someone else electrically excites that part of my brain, then the source is obvious. But normal conscious thought???? The way we make choices.... is that simple hard wired into my DNA??? Don't I really make choices??
Are we really just mindless robots (hyper advanced robots, but robots notheless)??? Robots who are slaves to our DNA ultimately?
Reply #320 Top
I don't want to go to heaven. I don't really want to die but then again when I have grown old and my body has started to decline I don't want to live too much longer either. I personally prefer reincarnation. I want to keep coming back to this crazy blue rock and experience life over and over. In 200 years I want to be using my VR implant to chat in the cybercafe with people just like you over things just like this. Of course that is just my preference, I have no conclusive proof.
Reply #321 Top
Are we really just mindless robots (hyper advanced robots, but robots notheless)??? Robots who are slaves to our DNA ultimately?


Yes. We are, in effect, enormously complicated robots.

If you suffer brain damage, your personality can change. If you take the right drugs, your personality will change (anti-psychotic or anti-depression drugs, for example). It's a very complicated process, but if your internal makeup is altered sufficently, there are changes in behavior.

Reply #322 Top
dystopic, do you believe in some higher power, or are you aethest? I thought you were athesist but reading your last post....

I didn't mean to use such strong words. I realize now that I was sort of a hypocrit when I called out sushistrip, when I was also using fighting words of my own to a lesser degree.

It would be nice to know exactly how we come into the lives we are in. The answer to that question would really set alot of things straight. Still, the fact is I was born on January 10, 1981, for some darn reason. For some darn reason, I am now a 26 year old white male...... So I guess I came from nothingness??? I came from non-existence?? If I was seemingly created from nothing, a contradiction to the law of conservation of matter-energy seems to have happened. To me, aethesim would make all the sense in the world if humanity was one giant organsim. If humanity was not billions of seperate bodys but instead, one giant organism, it would then make sense to me. If I was born once, then why wouldn't I be born again? Maybe there is no afterlife like heaven of hell, but instead, strict reincarnation into this universe??

Give me some good arguments again as to how despite popping into existence and transcending some previous state (non-existence?), showing that somehow, someway we got into our lives, then what argument is there to say it won't happen again as in strict this-universe reincarnation?? I somehow got into this body, and control this body, for some reason. Now, why wouldn't I somehow control another body? If you die and go to non-existence, then who cares? Why does that mean you will never, ever exist again, when we all apparently came from non-existence?????

Again, who is to say that number of lives for your consciousness, electrical field, "soul", or whatever = 1??? To me, number of lives = 3 is just a good a number to argue.
Reply #323 Top
Wasn't there some anchient Greek Philosopher who worked on a "proof" for GOD?? Not to say his work was any sort of proof, as I do think a proof of God with our current technology is utterly impossible. Still, does anyone know who I am talking about? I dare say this bloke used math to attempt to prove God???
Reply #324 Top
I really really really don't understand why you think it's so amazing you're you and not me. You didn't magically happen. Your parents had sex, you were the result. If you weren't you, you'd be someone else who might be thinking the exact same thing.

If my father hadn't left the Military when he did, I can't imagine how different my life would be. I wouldn't be the same person at all. However, if he had stayed in, I wouldn't ever know who I could have been if he'd left. It's the way life goes--your choices, and the choices of others, builds up the experience that is your life.

You weren't fated to be the person you were. If you're at a concert and a light falls and kills someone, that person wasn't predestined to die. It's random, and it sucks, but it's just one of those things. If you happen to be standing next to it, it's very easy to start going crazy with 'what-ifs'.

People get hurt and killed all the time because they're in the wrong place. Doesn't mean it's a miracle that they're there---just the result of the way the world works.
Reply #325 Top
I really really really don't understand why you think it's so amazing you're you and not me. You didn't magically happen.



Traditionally, scientists and psychologists have studied identical twins who share the same genes to find out if differences in personality and behaviour can be put down to the environment. Scientists have discovered through DNA testing that around half of our personality traits are hard-wired into our genes. But some behaviour is more elusive – perhaps because scientists first have to work out what these genes are through DNA testing and then work out how they interact.