ThinkAloud

Join Date 04/2004

The Immigration Bill ..... and Low-skilled labor

Who Needs That !!!!!

All of a sudden, Bush supporters woke up and discovered that he is an idiot who is leading the country down a disastrous path. And what woke them up? the Immigration Bill !!!!!

It is as if during the past 6 years, nothing.... absolutely nothing that this fool did matters to his supporters.... except the Immigration Bill. And what is so disastrous about this Bill? Let me count the ways according to those former supporters of GWB:

1- It gives temporary Visas and work permits to people currently working in this country most of whom are low-skilled laborers.
2- Those low-skilled people usually resist assimilation in "America"
3- Those people usually hate this country and think the South really belongs to their country ... i.e. Mexico
4- Those people don’t pay much in taxes but enjoy the benefits of our safety net.

I am trying to understand the logic behind this sudden conversion of former GWB supporters.

First let me say this up front, entering this country illegally is a crime and should not be permitted.

Few other facts of life and of natural laws should be stated here:

a- Borders are not doors that can be closed shut. Every border in the world is being penetrated, illegally, on a regular basis and all that any country can do is to keep that to a minimum. If borders could be closed shut, we wouldn’t have drugs and arms smuggled allover the world all the time. Would we?
b- If there is a need for anything and there is a supply for it somewhere, the supply will find a way to where it is needed regardless of anyone's objection, control, desire, policy or whatever.
c-If there is an easy legal way to obtain anything, people usually get it that way. They don’t resort to illegal ways for the fun of it. Because it is not fun ... it is dangerous and many times it is fatal.
d- All societies need every level of labor skill from bed-pan cleaners to particle physics’ scientists. Much more of the former than of the latter.

There are more facts involved but the above are sufficient to make few points.

The fact that there are from 12 to 20 million illegal workers (including their families) here in the US proves that there are jobs available for these people, otherwise they would have returned back long time ago. why would they stay here? To be arrested?
And if this is the case, why are we opposed to allow needed labor to enter and work legally?

Are we supposed to believe that we don’t need low-skilled labor in this country and by allowing them we will lower the standards of our society?

who will pick up the vegetables and fruits that we eat? a high-tech geek?

if we have enough citizens who can do this low-skilled work, how come the farmers in the west and the south west have a labor shortage now after we made it a little more difficult to penetrate the borders? What would happen if we really somehow managed to make it very difficult which is not practical?

Another point that is being raised in opposition to this Bill is that it makes it easy for these people to get Visa while other high-skilled people are having difficult time and they are made to spend much more to get a Visa.

This of course is a very logical complaint and whoever obstructing the Visas for anyone who has a legitimate purpose of being here needs to be removed from office. but the Bill has nothing to do with that. unless of course you take the attitude that "if i don’t get it, they don’t get it either".

Bureaucratic red tape should not stand in the way when there is a legitimate need to be fulfilled. But this has nothing to do with the Immigration Bill. I am sure the people involved, if the Bill passes, will face the same red tape. It is an equal opportunity obstructer.

Other points raised against this Bill like assimilation and attitudes will be much alleviated if these people feel welcomed and their services are appreciated not made to feel as if they are sub-humans.

As for the low taxes they pay .... there is an easy solution. Pay them more......

Of all people, conservatives should know that there is no free lunch. If we need the services we have to pay for it one way or another. Either allow low-skilled labor to come legally and work in our farms, Or shut-down our farms (like Reagan did with our Factories) and import the farm-products we need, Or Automate the operation to make it easier for Americans to work in this area and pay for the cost to do that.

If we fail to do any of the above, they will come illegally whether we like it or not and it is not stoppable. Remember... the Border is not a door that can be closed shut.

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Since I am a first generation American, I feel that Immigration and immigrants are what has made this country great.. but LEGAL immigrants.. not some border jumpers that start off in America by breaking the law upon arrival. I have no problem with who they are, what color they are, if the come across with no permission they need to be deported.

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Anyone who really needs something you have is just going to kick it open, so not only should you leave it unlocked, you should leave it wide open

Not exactly. If you have said .... really "determined to take" something.... you would be correct. and it is true. doors dont prevent determined burglars .... it prevents random ones, they look for the easy way. the determined ones nothing will prevent them short of a permenent gurad at the door.

and this is exactly what we have in this issue. these people are "Determined" to look for work anywhere they can get it. and they find a market willing to hire them. they will get in no matter what.

beside, i fully support and wish that we strengthen our border security. there is no question about that. but it is a fact of life that no matter what we do they will get in. if we didnt need them it will be reasonable to make it a huge diplomatic issue with Mexico, but the problem is that we need them. then we really have to find a legal way to satisfy our Farming/Construction/Service labor needs and also our border security needs.

You making it sound as if they are stealing something. They are not LW. they looking for work that exist in our society.

let's be honest, not many americans are willing to do these jobs at the current wages. somehow, americans find better ways. That in itself is a blessing our country has. but we still have this work that must be done. so how else do you propose that farmers, construction comapanies and cleaning services get the labor they need. i really would like to hear your answer.

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if the come across with no permission they need to be deported

They are being deported. There is no arguement about that. The problem is that no matter what we do, millions cross undetected over the years. how do we deal with that? that is the issue.

I never heard anyone opposing more border security, applying the law ... etc. these are issues that we all agree on. but the above issue still remains. ignoring it will not make it go away.

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and this is exactly what we have in this issue. these people are "Determined" to look for work anywhere they can get it. and they find a market willing to hire them. they will get in no matter what.

And the drug runners are "determined" to get the drugs across the border at Nuevo Laredo. We may as well just let it go through, since someone who is determined enough can't be stopped and obviously shouldn't be.

There are several myths at play here. The first is the myth that illegals do the job Americans won't. I'd like you to tell that to all the construction workers, roofers, and landscapers who have been put out of work because Mexican work crews will do it cheaper. Or to the meat packers shut out of packing plants because those plants hire only illegals at wages well above averages for the area (The Tyson plant in Cactus Texas started illegals at $11.90/hr and local landlords provided housing rent free until the first paycheck came in. This in an area where the median income is $23,000/yr. I can tell you for a fact as a gringo who came here less than three years ago looking for work, this job was NOT offered to me, even though it is not far from here).

The second myth is that all of these illegals come here looking to become citizens. Many have no intention of ever becoming so. This is why their paychecks go back across the borders. They intend to make their money and head for home as soon as they have enough to live the good life.

Another myth is that we offer no legal means for these immigrants to cross. This has been refuted so many times as to be laughable.

The truth is, legal immigrants should want these people picked up and deported as much as those of us who've been here for many generations. The disproportionate crime (google the numbers of illegals in federal prisons and with outstanding felony warrants vs. the number of illegals in residence), the leeching off of the welfare system (illegals don't get food stamps or TANF, but any kids born on this side of the border do) and the educational system, and the wage depression of certain occupations, are all direct results of the actions of these "noble poor". While this problem wasn't dealt with by previous administrations, to their shame (and was even dealt with in a COMPLETELY irresponsible manner by Reagan), it needs to be dealt with now. I am not suggesting mass deportations, but I AM suggesting better enforcement, stiffer penalties against employers of illegals, and immediate deportation of any illegal who is detained and discovered, with a 6 month ban on legal re-entry.

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All of a sudden, Bush supporters woke up and discovered that he is an idiot who is leading the country down a disastrous path. And what woke them up? the Immigration Bill !!!!!

Uh no. Bush supporters supported him because of his policies (I am one). We disagree - some vehemently - on this bill. We did not wake up. We have never supported this amnesty. But we are not going to throw the baby out with the bath water (i.e. not support anything else he has done because of this stupidity).

If that is the way you are, more power to you! It is a free country where anyone can be as shallow as they want. But before I buy your "told you so", I will want to see where you are chucking Obama, Clinton, and Edwards over the side when they go against something you believe in.

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The first is the myth that illegals do the job Americans won't.

The Tyson plant in Cactus Texas started illegals at $11.90/hr and local landlords provided housing rent free until the first paycheck came in. This in an area where the median income is $23,000/yr. I can tell you for a fact as a gringo who came here less than three years ago looking for work, this job was NOT offered to me, even though it is not far from here

They intend to make their money and head for home as soon as they have enough to live the good life.

Another myth is that we offer no legal means for these immigrants to cross. This has been refuted so many times as to be laughable.

I hear what you saying loud and clear Gid. however, if you look at what you just said you will recognize the problem. It is the unchecked Free Market that all of you say it checks itself. I agree 100% that the government should enforce the border security but at the same time the Government must also deal with those who hire them and give them facilities as you described.

these people are not looking for immigration Visa, they want to work and go back. work permits is what should be offered not immigartion green card. in the meantime, force the employers to use one consistent pay scale without regard to who is applying for the job. the government has a lot of work to do here, but make it easy to get work permits. not green cards.

just keep in mind most businesses will oppose that .... it is Free Market and Get-the-Government-off-our-back thing ..... remember that?

of course we should all realize that if we enforce these rules, things will be much more expensive. I for one have no problem with that at all. but most of the republicans and conservatives oppose forcing the employers to act in the way i described above i.e. One pay and benefits scale, work permits to satisfy the employers needs.

If these two items are enforced, the flow will stop. there will be no jobs for them. and they will stay home naturally.

You cant solve this problem by just securing the border, this is the main point. offer work permits for the jobs available and enforce labor laws. If americans really want these jobs they will get it and foreign workers will only be needed to make up any shortages. If that is done, no one will come here, except the criminals of course and border security will be able to concentrate on them. right now, border security people are overwhelmed, they cant cope with the huge flow that is going on right now.

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I will want to see where you are chucking Obama, Clinton, and Edwards over the side when they go against something you believe in.

done that for a loong time already. i never support anyone blindly and regardless of the consequences of his/her policies. I voted for clinton twice but opposed him on many issues. i learned long time ago that no one, no one, qualifies for that because no one is perfect. What was and still sad is the fact that the policies of this fool was obviously wrong from the start. but he still got the support to elect him TWICE.

the problem i have with the people who are up in arms against him because of this Bill is the fact that this is the least of his foolish policies. i listed few of the major disasters that he started, can you tell me how can anyone support that? but you guys did.

when he ran in 2000, he clearly said that he will have nothing to do with the world's problem and just concentrate on our domestic issues. how in the world do we elect what you guys call "Free World Leader" someone who clearly and openly says that he will ignore the world. and ignore it he did. ..... now look where we are.

Same goes for all other issues. programs with nobel-sounding names and very malicious content. policies based on false information, secret dealings with his business buddies .... etc. all this was obvious from the start and now you are upset only about this Bill? That is the least of it. at least this issue is repairable. the others are very hard to repair the damage they caused.

btw, i never respond to insults, but it is very obvious who is what.

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I voted for clinton twice but opposed him on many issues.

And therein lies your hypocrasy. You want all the Bush supporters to do as you tell them, not as you did with Clinton. So that does prove you are not that shallow politically, just a hypocrite.

And if you think calling you shallow is a an insult, then you are shallow as well. Saying a skunk is smelly is not insulting a skunk, but describing him.

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You want all the Bush supporters to do as you tell them, not as you did with Clinton. So that does prove you are not that shallow politically,

Interesting double standard that you point out Doc.

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What makes you think that just because we support Prs. Bush, that means we have to support him on EVERYTHING? I can think of a lot of things I have disagreed with him on over the years, but that doesn't mean I can't support him as president.

There were things I agreed with that Prs. Clinton and Carter did, but that doesn't mean I supported them.

It's called, the ability to think for myself. You should try it sometime. It is really fun.

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It's called, the ability to think for myself. You should try it sometime. It is really fun.

But Ted, Capitalism is the DEVIL *waterboy*!!!!

Only mama loves us enough to tell us what we should think! That's why we ain't gots no friends, except our mama.

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One pay and benefits scale, work permits to satisfy the employers needs.Communist.

same pay for the same job regardless of who is applying is communist? isnt that what the law says now?

and giving needed foreign workers work permits is communist?

so let me get this staright : allow employers to hire and offer lower pay to illegal foreigners and dont give these workers permits,

and who is asking for price controls or government pay? where did you get that from?are you guys hyper or what?

so you want to keep them illegal? but still allow their hiring and pay them less than what you normally pay? in other words you want the whole thing to be illegal on more than one level. illegal entry, illegal hiring and illegal pay. ....

ooh i see. use them cheaply then arest them. is that it? that solves the issue?

if big slogans and labels are your only answer, then the shallowness is so obvious and clear.

You want all the Bush supporters to do as you tell them, not as you did with Clinton So that does prove you are not that shallow politically, just a hypocrite.

i wish you think before you write. Did i ever say it is not right for them to criticize this fool? i was only surprised that this is the issue that got you all upset with him. he has done so much damage that this is the least of it. i said that many times. in fact i am somewhat glad that they finally woke up. That doesnt mean i think you guys are going to change. no way.... it takes more foresight than what i see here. it just means that you are not brain dead

This only shows that you guys are only "agenda oriented". you are not looking to find solution to problems. you are only interested in single issues and even then, your way of fixing those issues are sooo narrow minded it is disgusting.

no wonder republicans/conservatives cant really govern. all you guys have is certain things to do regardless of their consequences.

that is exactly what this current fool did with your support. Governing is something else than an agenda.

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wish you think before you write. Did i ever say it is not right for them to criticize this fool?

You stated that you did not like all of Clinton's decisions, yet no where did you say that because of those decisions (with the implication that you liked most of his decisions) you are an anti-clinton person. Indeed, the implication is just the opposite (but it is an implication on your part - not a statement).

So lets level the playing field and let you either explain yourself clearly - or dig your grave deeper.

After Clinton signed into law (or proposed or supported) some bills you DID NOT like, did you throw him out and have you now decided he was the worst president since the country was founded? A simple yes or no is sufficient.

To help you along, if you did not throw him out, then what you are telling the Bush supporters to do is hypocritical. Since you did not do it with Clinton.

If you did throw him out, then your support of CLinton was shallow and since he was more liberal than conservative, that indicates that you are as well. Not a given (you can explain further here).

Finally, for extra credit. IN those decisions/Policies that you did not like and did not support, did you have an epiphany that made you realize that "WOW! I should have dumped this fool long ago because he supported - insert policy here - !"

Now instead of descending into a sniping attack, and accusing you of engaging fingers before brains, I will allow you to explain how you are not either hypocritical or shallow in accusing Bush supporters for not hating the man and all his policies because they do not agree with his immigration policy.

Make your own bed. I will wait.

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Governing is something else than an agenda.

That is very telling. Thank you for the enlightenment. So governing - by your implication - should be done by the seat of the pants with no plans or ideals. That should be changed based upon what the polls say others think, not what you think. That we should completely ignore - no even more so - no candidate should ever make a statement of what they would do if elected (for that is an agenda - albeit rarely kept).

All candidates, and the one you support apparently, should merely promise to "do what the polls say I should - nothing more, nothing less."

By that logic, then, I can assume that you did support Bush back in 2001-2005 since the majority of Americans did as well. And since you say he is a fool, then you were supporting the fool just like us. But instead of disagreeing with a bad policy (immigration) that caused you to criticize him, it was the simple poll numbers that made you decide he was a fool. And that regardless of what he was doing (an agenda), he was a fool for having convictions.

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1- It gives temporary Visas and work permits to people currently working in this country most of whom are low-skilled laborers.
2- Those low-skilled people usually resist assimilation in "America"
3- Those people usually hate this country and think the South really belongs to their country ... i.e. Mexico
4- Those people don’t pay much in taxes but enjoy the benefits of our safety net.

these are the same agruments used in the 1800s

the illegal aliens were allowed into the country becouse farmers couldn't pay higher wages. now they can

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Be careful LW, the way things are going around here, agenda could be just another one of those "depends on your point of view what it means" kinda word.

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Kinda like, "That would depend on what your definition of 'is' is."

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Why is it that every time I point out TA's foolishness, TA takes a vacation?

Maybe she get's foolishness skymiles.

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same pay for the same job regardless of who is applying is communist? isnt that what the law says now?

that is what i said. does this contradict what you said? .... your answer was:

MANY people work the same job for varying amounts of pay. Reasons could include more experience, more seniority, better references, luck, and/or sharper negotiating skills.

really amazing. the qualification is a given, did i have to say that so you dont misunderstand?

what i said means same pay "if qualifications" are the same. sorry i didnt know that was not a given. and the laws forbid discrimination based on sex or race or ... or... etc. you didnt think i meant that too?

comon guys, you just nit picking here, arn't you? I think your left/right tunnel vision is clouding everything you see or read. that is a shame. I have no doubt that you understood what i meant, why you write as if you didnt ... i will never know or understand.

I will allow you to explain how you are not either hypocritical or shallow in accusing Bush supporters for not hating the man and all his policies because they do not agree with his immigration policy.

first i didnt accuse them of hating him, and honestly i dont hate him either. and again you completely missed my point. i clarified it for you before and it is there if you really want to know. no sense of repaeating it.

i think it is very obvious that you guys want things to stay the way they are. i just saw a commercial from the business groups in the west and south-west saying this " work permits is the way to go to fulfill labor shortages". this is business owners asking for what i proposed and this is not good for you guys? ... even describing it as "communism"?

Instead of jumping up and down, why not propose a soultion? is that going by what the polls say? or is it called problem solving? i guess that is not what you really looking for. it is just left/right rhetoric that you are interested in?

the illegal aliens were allowed into the country becouse farmers couldn't pay higher wages. now they can

Agreed. but when i said that every one jumps "communism", forced pay, price controls.... you see what i mean.

not paying illegals the same as legal workers is the problem. how do we solve that? any big brains who think they know how the world works have a solution? speak up ..... let's hear what you have all knowing people.

just in case your brains is not keeping track, saying tighten border security WILL NOT WORK. why? because the people who need labor will get them in one way or another. so use big brain power and tell us what is the solution?????

Do you even know the definition of agenda?

of course not. how would i know? thanks for the lesson.

come up with a list of stuff to do and then do it.

great, finally you found it . ok then. apply it. I am waiting.

Why is it that every time I point out TA's foolishness, TA takes a vacation?

not intentional LW, honest. but i have to work too. and thanks for the compliment. now show me your wisdom. some fools are willing to learn, .. you know.

Maybe she get's foolishness skymiles.

"SHE" ????? i am too ugly to confuse me with a woman you dumb-witted Charles

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

What made me turn against Bush permanently was when he nominated Hariet Meyers for the Supreme Court.

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To those who oppose the bill, the problem still exists. To simply oppose it saying that it legalizes illegal immigration is simply isn't looking at the bill. To get to the point of getting a valid green card the process takes years, involves a heavy fine and attempts to weed out the criminal element. Do those idiots really believe we can just deport 12 million people?
The other end of the coin is the Wall Street Journal who cite the economic benefits of immigration. Blindness in the form of science. They recently tried to pass this by their readers but conveniently forgot to point out they were considering all immigrants, not just illegals. Of course the journal loves illegals, because their business buddies can pay minimum wages to desperate people who don't care.
Illegals only take jobs nobody else wants. Ha! You tried to get a job in construction lately? I'm sure that before the illegals started crossing the border there was nobody that wanted to do lawn maintainance. Its all an excuse to pay illegals at criminally low wages.
Those who knowingly hire illegals should be heavily fined, as they are the enablers for illegal immigration. Since its not realistic to deport 12 million people a method must be found to account for those already here, and restrict further people from coming in illegally. I think the bill saw to those issues. To be against it because it tries to be pragmatic is idiocy.

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the original reason for the illegal alien status was to get cheap labor for farmers along the Mexican border

and now we need more workers than we have

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Its all an excuse to pay illegals at criminally low wages.

That is exactly my point. and to tell you the truth, from what i saw in that commercial, those business people (at least the hones ones ... and there are many of them )are trying to make it legal. But as you can read here, it is called communism by those who want to keep them illegal so they can use them while they are under the gun of illegality.

Some people are just too pig-ignorant to argue with.

That is a great escape hatch .... dont hold your wisdom from those poor pig-ignorant people. ..... they will listen and may be someday become less ignorant.

now we need more workers than we have

Let's assume that we have the workers but are not being hired because of the low wages that illegal workers accept. isnt legalizing those workers would at least solve this part of the problem? but for some people ..... noooooo. keep them illegal.

Really Really amazing. but like i said before governing is something other than slogans and Communist/Capitalist rhetoric. Those who still love that rhetoric dont realize that the debate on that is over .... hey guys ....... Capitalism WON. Now let it work, and stop the empty talk.

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What made me turn against Bush permanently was when he nominated Hariet Meyers for the Supreme Court.

That was really idiotic decision on his part. I wish it was the only one or even the first.

As a business man you should, and i am sure you do, understand that upending the effeciency and competency of the Federal Government (or whatever precious little it had of both) is really a disaster that we will be suffering from for a looong time. He did that by appointing his cronies in and at the top of different agencies and fired (or forced to resign) everyone who even slightly disagreed with his policies. Whitman, Powel, O'Neal and many Military and CIA professionals come to mind. for God's sake even look at what happened at the World Bank

So he really ruined the Fed Gov not only the GOP.

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Let's assume that we have the workers but are not being hired because of the low wages that illegal workers accept. isn't legalizing those workers would at least solve this part of the problem?

only problem is unemployment is below 5% which means that everyone who wants to be working is of those who aren't some are looking for higher paying jobs.

when unemployment drops below 3% that means everyone who wants to work is period. the ones not working are on vacation. last i heard which has been awhile we were down around 3%

so no illegals are not taking jobs that Americans want

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