Religion of peace update: May 2007

Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

Religion of peace update: May 2007

American Muslims less prone to mahem but it's all relative

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There's been a lot of debate this past week over the survey of American Muslims and their views.

The left has used the survey to paint American Muslims as being "mainstream" while the right has been using it to present American Muslims as being ready for Jihad?

What's the truth? I have linked to the actual 108 page survey below so you can read it for yourself. But here are the facts of the survey:

47% of American Muslims see themselves as Muslims first and Americans second.

35% of Muslims support the war in Afghanistan

8% support suicide bombing sometimes or often

40% believe Arabs were responsible for 9/11 attacks (60% either don't know or don't think so)

63% say they are Democrats

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

The Muslims stuff here at JU isn't like that. It's more like a redneck bar, "Religion of peace my ass!!"... followed by hoots of approval, and frankly that's beneath you Brad. I have to ask what real purpose is there in it, when you know the average Muslim that overhears you isn't going to be anything BUT peaceful. Some people here, sure, they wouldn't care, but you?

Oh please. If we were back in the 1930s and I said "People in the KKK are prone to lynching blacks" I am sure someone would say "Hey, there's plenty of KKK members that are completely peaceful! Just because a few bad apples get out there doesn't mean anything."

And the redneck bar analogy is, sorry Bakerstreet, idiotic. Unless the redneck bars you hang out at sit around discussing surveys done by the Pew research institute and discuss the statistical results I can't take your assertion seriously.

The reason I am motivated to bring this up is in response to what I feel is propaganda by the mainstream media that Islam is a "religion of peace" when I believe is nonsense. Just because most Muslims are peaceful (just like most Communists were peaceful or most Nazis were peaceful) doesn't mean much when one looks at what is done IN ITS NAME.

I also post this because when someone does a Google search on "Religion of Peace" I want to make sure the facts I present are able to be found.

My article isn't some ignorant "redneck" post spewing haterd of Islam. It is a series of facts listed from an extremely well respected research institution which in turn links TO THE SOURCE (and not some analysis article).

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

I'd be willing to bet that less than 20% would put country before God,

THIS statement I have to agree with, Baker. I do believe that for most people of faith their religious identity often precludes their national identity.

And I believe that is actually a GOOD thing. Serving the state is the essence of communism. Not a good thing, IMEABO.

This is a twisting of the survey's words.

It's not who they serve first, it's what they identify with first. Christians take their religion very seriously but they do not see themselves as citizens of the world who are Christians first and Americans second. The fucking survey is linked there at the bottom to read.

The context of the identification is that in the Islamic world, people do not have that strong a tie to a nation state as much as they do to their religion. The question isn't about patriotism, it has to do with identification.

If I ask a typical American what they are, they'll say "I'm an American" not "I'm a Christian".

If you think those people will claim that they are Americans before Christians, well, I don't think you really know enough about them to discuss them.

Don't mischaracterize what I wrote. And read the goddamn Pew study before you starting patronizing me. If you can't show minimum respect then fuck off. I've turned the other cheek to your high handed attitude on this issue for the last time. If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside to think that you are more enlightened than I am because you hold a more "tolerant" point of view than I do, then good for you. But keep it to yourself on my blog.

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Christians take their religion very seriously but they do not see themselves as citizens of the world who are Christians first and Americans second.

Depends on who you ask. I do know many Christians who DO consider themselves Christians first and Americans second. Maybe not to the numbers of Muslims who do, but they certainly are there.

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Consider me fucked off. I can't show respect for ideas that I have no respect for.

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Brad said:

"If you really think thta 47% of American Christians see themselves as Christians first and Americans second or that nearly 1 in 10 American Christians thinks it's okay to murder people in the name of their religion then I don't know what to say to you."

Um, the survey you posted actually said 42% of Christians put themselves as Christians first and Americans second, with the devout more likely than the weekenders. I actually posted this before (now LW do you see the pointlessness of research for JU?):

I should have read the report first, I admit that now, but this is made problematic in the report when it says that Christians do exactly the same thing - 42% of Christians think of themselves as Christians first, Americans second.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

Depends on who you ask. I do know many Christians who DO consider themselves Christians first and Americans second. Maybe not to the numbers of Muslims who do, but they certainly are there.

Certainly. But what % of Americans say they're Christians? 80% plus? Do you really think that even a double digit percentage of Americans who say they're Christians identify themselves as Christians first and Americans second?

I think most Christians think of their religion as a personal thing, not as a sovereignty thing.

Asked whether they think of themselves

first as an American or first as a Muslim, a

47% plurality of U.S. Muslims say they

consider themselves Muslims first; 28% say

they think of themselves first as Americans. In

May 2006, when U.S. Christians were asked a

parallel question, 42% said they think of

themselves as Christians first, while 48% said

they are Americans first.

I do stand corrected on the survey response part because my analysis is very differnet from the results. In the survey 47% of Muslims say they're Muslims first. But as Cacto points out, 42% of Christians say they're Christians first.

However, in my opinion, and unfortunately I don't have any concrete evidence to point to support this (so take it for what it's worth) Christians tend to take their religion as a personal belief where as Muslims are more inclined to see themselves as part of a supra-national group. So the respondants to that survey question took the question differently.

That said, only 28% of Muslims said they saw themselves as Americans first compared to 48% of Christians. THAT is a significant difference and there's no way around that.

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To me, I think the evidence is pretty clear that Islam is different from other religions. It is not just a form of faith but a recipe for government and civil life along with policies towards the rest of the world.

Draginol, there is no need for any evidence regarding this point. Islam declares it loud and clear. It is a way of life including the nation as a whole and the world at large. You write as if saying "Islam is an Ideology" is some sort of a discovery on your part or an accusation to Islam.

The problem is that you consider it a threat. and you also write as if Islam is the only one of the three religions that is saying that. How do you think a group of slaves became a great nation for a very long time under the command of many prophets from Moses to David and Solomon?

Jesus did not change any of the principles regarding this point, he only changed some rules regarding other issues. And Mohammad did as Jesus did. No changes regarding this point but only changes regarding other day-to-day life issues.

And if you really serious and not biased in your research and analysis, you would recognize that the only difference in the behavior of today's adherents to each religion is that Muslims take their religion very seriously. This, i am sorry to say, is not the case for "Western" Jews and Christians. Still "Western" Jews are much closer to Muslims in that regard but not as strict in applying the rules. However, "Western" Christians are very liberal in their interpretation and application of the rules. Notice that i said "Western" Jews and Christians. If you see what Middle-Eastern Jews and Christians say about their "Western" counterparts you would be amazed .... and insulted i might add. this is really the problem. The Middle-East world-view, as you put it is very much different than the western one. not just Islam's world-view.

One thing you should keep in mind is this: If you think, or you wish, that these middle-eastern people, Jews, Christians AND Muslims will stay low and just take the abuse that the West heaps on them, then you are totally mistaken. They wont take it while their three religions tell them:An eye for an eye, Defend your land and resources, Fight for your rights, Defend your religion .... etc. If you think, or wish, that they are not entitled to that. then that is another issue.

Did you ever think about this: If Islam is really a "threat" to civilization as you think it is why they are not attacking China, Japan, Russia (except Chishneya .... and why Chishneya??), India (other than Kashmir ... and why Kashmir???), Korea and Vietnam. These countries are non-believers who, in the eyes of the three religions, are supposed to be their sworn enemies and their first duty is to fight them while the "West" is populated by the "People of the Book" who are supposed to be treated with respect and left alone?

What do these non-western countries have in common regarding the Middle-East? ..... it is very obvious .... isnt it?
None of them occupied, slaved, divided or siphoned the resources of the Middle-East. What proves this point is to look at Kashmirand Chisneya. The two are the only points-of-conflict between Muslims and ALL of these countries. The violence in these two areas is very limited and doesnt much differ from any other border-conflict in the rest of the world

Middle-Eastern Muslims dont even dream of World-Dominance as you might like to believe. they will be just happy not to be the "West's Slaves". They feel they are now being treated by the west that way.

American Muslims have little stake in what i outlined above. They are here and not there. but believe it or not they will do the same to their abuser, as would American Jews and American Christians if their land (i.e. America), religion or resources were subjected to any foreign abuse, threat or danger.

look again and research again Draginol. you still have a lot to know.

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only 28% of Muslims said they saw themselves as Americans first compared to 48% of Christians. THAT is a significant difference and there's no way around that. ..... Draginol

The reason as i mentioned in the above comment is that most of the American Muslims were not born here and they still take their religion seriously. I have no proof but i suspect that those 28% are the ones who were born here, i.e. second generation Muslims.

This , i am sure will have no effect on your views ..... but i just wanted to clarify the point for the record.

Relax Draginol ..... Muslims are not that clever to take-over-the-world. They cant even take-back their own land.

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Little Whip: I see where you are coming from, and frankly I don't think you and I could really get into much of an argument about it. I'm not trying to say that Islam is a religion of peace, because I don't think any of the three are religions of peace. they are all founded on the blood of untold numbers of people.

I don't, though, believe that the average adherent of any of the three is really a threat to me. I don't pick threats via ideology, I don't need to. I can turn on the news and in an unbiased way see what my threats are. When an atheist or even the flu is statistically more apt to kill me than a Muslim, I just don't see the need in the grave discussion.

Now, granted, if there were "Arab supremacists" making conversation, or if a Muslim were here making points that overlooked obvious material that refutes them, I'd have no qualms answering it. But, I'd be talking to him. I'd be addressing his points. I dunno what really is thought to be helped by alienating random Muslims, though.

Genius, there already ARE muslims games "like that".

They even have a Mickey Mouse Jihadi, telling LITTLE kids to kill jews and Americans.

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