Was there a matching survey on Christian views? Somehow (apart of course from the most scurrilous finding, that Muslims are predominately -gasp- Democrats) I can't see that being much different there save for the suicide bombing conclusion.

But I guess we've been over this already. Unless you know of something neither of us has any evidence to suggest these muslim results are in any way unusual for people in general.

My only other question is what possible purpose are you serving in bringing them up again?

Why is that relevent? We're talking about Americans here; I don't think any Americans have successfully committed an act of terrorism in the name of anyone since 9/11, have they? There've been suspects and convictions for planning, but I don't think there's been any successful attacks by US citizens.



There was a zogby poll in 2006 that found 42% of Americans in general believed the US government was covering up something about 9/11. It's not quite the same question, but let's remember that only 28% of that Muslim 60% believed non-Arabs were actually involved in the attack.



Not on all questions and not on what I would consider were the key questions - those on terrorism and on conspiracy theories about Israeli/US gov involvement.

Oh, and one interesting thing - 43% of Muslims think new Muslims in America should adopt American customs, with another 16% saying they should adopt US customs and keep their own. I'm not sure if that's unusual for an American immigrant group but it would be for an Australian one (from my recollection a survey of the Serbian community in Oz returned around a 30% adopt local rate on a similar question).



I should have read the report first, I admit that now, but this is made problematic in the report when it says that Christians do exactly the same thing - 42% of Christians think of themselves as Christians first, Americans second. When 54% of Muslims think gov policies on terrorism are an attempt to single out the Muslim population I think that's actually a surprisingly high pro-America figure.

Why is that relevent? We're talking about Americans here; I don't think any Americans have successfully committed an act of terrorism in the name of anyone since 9/11, have they? There've been suspects and convictions for planning, but I don't think there's been any successful attacks by US citizens.

Then "why", was it relevant enough for YOU to bring it up in the first place? I refer you to reply #1.

#1 by cactoblasta Fri, May 25, 2007 11:59 PM Was there a matching survey on Christian views? Somehow (apart of course from the most scurrilous finding, that Muslims are predominately -gasp- Democrats) I can't see that being much different there save for the suicide bombing conclusion. But I guess we've been over this already. Unless you know of something neither of us has any evidence to suggest these muslim results are in any way unusual for people in general. My only other question is what possible purpose are you serving in bringing them up again?

I defy anyone here to tell me that if Christians were polled that there wouldn't be AT LEAST as many who said they were Christians first and Americans second. Country before God? What planet do you live on? Christians, especially evangelicals, have a martyr syndrome. Go read the "Left Behind" crap.

They believe that their governments will turn against them and they'll all have to oppose the government and refuse the mark of the beast, etc. The "black UN helicopter" militia crowd in the US is crammed full of Christians ready to fight the evil antichrist government ATF agents in the "end times". Can you really sit there and pretend that Christians intend to sit quietly, accept their little tattoo and do what the supposed antichrist says in their "end times" myth?

I grew up around NRA, pentacostal and evangelical Christians always murmuring about the ATF and how they were going to come for your guns and make you give up your bibles and make your daughters have abortions. I've lived near the communities, in the chruches, in the same part of the country as Eric Rudolph, and I've heard people openly support such acts, over and over. I've heard the sniper that killed abortion doctors praised FROM THE PULPIT.

Now, do we go out and do it? Hell no. We're fat and happy. So are Muslim Americans. They're fat and happy, too, and they don't blow people up, either. If the ones in the Middle East were fat an happy they wouldn't care, either. Instead, they are brainwashed by POLITICAL propaganda, scapegoating Israel and the US for their problems, the problems in their societies, and more often than not sitting around with nothing to do except believe in evil Zionist plots.

The next time you hear the old recording of Charlton Heston giving the "cold dead fingers" speech, ask yourself what he is saying. Ever go to gun shows? Heh, sometimes I think Nascar and beer are the only thing that keeps a good portion of the US from becoming militant. The material, the expertise, and the opportunity are there for Muslim Americans to wreak havoc here, and they don't. Do they get any credit for it? Nope.

---

Re: a 108 page survey. The first thing that sprang to mind was the psycological makeup of anyone who would sit for a 108 page survey. How did we react to the poll a couple of years ago that said like 70% of Americans believed that Hussein was responsible for 9/11? Or...



Here's one that says Scientific Poll: 84% of Americans Reject Official 9/11 Story. After all, where is the real spearhead of the 9/11 conspiracy quacks located, Qatar? Nope. "Prison Planet" ain't an Arab site.

Celebrities?



Actually, according to this poll, a smaller percent of Muslims believe 9/11 was a government conspiracy. If you can believe any of these polls. Imagine people speaking with candor to a stranger about this stuff. It isn't going to happen. Christians ain't going to tell you that they support abortion bombings.

We need to get beyond this and just look at reality. American Muslims have the means, material, opportunity, and excuses to commit attacks here. They don't, counter to all the outrage and reason they might have. That is pretty odd, really, in terms of cold statistics. Given the American love of rampage shooting, serial killing, etc., you'd think that eventually we'd find even a half-hearted Muslim looking for an excuse to get his name on the bigtime infamy list.

Like we dealt with the Chinese, Irish, 50's socialists, etc., we're willing to overlook the good and dwell upon the POSSIBILITY of bad. That would be bad enough if this environment of bias and anger didn't PROVOKE Muslims to start behaving in a more anti-social, paranoid way. This will be a self-fulfilling prophesy, if we aren't careful.

For those who did not actually look at the data presented (especially if you chose to comment anyway) you really missed a comprehensive source of information. First, the summary and analysis presented by Pew was 108 pages, not the actual poll. (That is in response to BakerStreet's comment above.) There is a ton of detail on how the data was collected, the multiple languages that the poll was conducted in, the experts on the board that wrote the questions, etc. More information about the poll itself than anyone can easily assimilate in one sitting. It is clear that Pew took significant effort to gather impartial and comprehensive data.

The findings are very interesting. Three quarters of the respondents say that they have never personally experienced discrimination in the US as a result of being Muslim, while almost one third say that someone has expressed support for them. (The likelihood of having been discriminated against goes up if you were born elsewhere and down if you were born here, I am just citing the summary.) The American experience for Muslim's has been much more positive than otherwise.

There are comparisons between Muslims here and abroad that are interesting. There are some interesting comments on society in general. (For example, almost 60% of American Muslims think that the government should do more to protect morality in society.)

To reject a wealth of data like this because you don't like some of the findings or, even worse, because you think that someone might draw conclusions that you don't like from the findings is sad. Poll data is DATA and dismissing any type of fact because we don't like it hurts us in the end.

There is also a Pew Survey on religious tolerance at Link According to that survey 55% of Americans viewed Muslims favorably, which is very close to how they viewed Evangelical Christians. So the sense that Muslims are singled out in American society is probably a misperception, too. Ironically (and really surprising to me) is that Jews are the religious group most favorably viewed in the US. 77%!!!! We're number 1, we're number 1!

Sorry...I was having a moment there.

I like Brad, you know that, but you can't be blind to the TITLE of the article, or, again, the line:



To me, this is like sitting in a quiet restaurant, talking about "Muslims" with no regard to anyone else in the place. Brad wouldn't do that, but this is reaches a wider audience, search-engine enabled. I mean, what are we really arguing here?

Are we arguing that American Muslims are a threat? Anyone willing to say that based upon decades of SURPRISING lack of threat as compared to other places in the world, and how hated we are in some of them? Are we arguing that American Muslims are somehow less peaceful? How does that play statistics-wise?

I challenged others here to tell me what the HELL kind of use this stuff is. No one replied, though I think in private they probably have a lot of suggestions. How should this way of thinking about Islam effect us? Should we be more distrustful of Muslims? Shadowwar suggested he was gonna start packing heat to the mall, lol.

Brad isn't like that, but somehow he's played into it. Never mind that his life is far more negatively effected by ignorant Christians than "political" Muslims. I just want to know that if all this "Religion of Peace" stuff doesn't translate to a threat, or a functional warning that can be used in some way or another, what is the purpose? Why are we openly ragging on the religion of people who are almost always good neighbors and coworkers?

Yeah, now I'm going back and forth. Never mind, break time.

Baker - I resent the implication that I'm somehow a "bigot" because I view Islam as an ideology as well as religion.

To me, I think the evidence is pretty clear that Islam is different from other religions.  It is not just a form of faith but a recipe for government and civil life along with policies towards the rest of the world.

There is, in my opinion, more than enough evidence to show that adherents of Islam are much more prone to behavior that we consider deplorable than that of other religions. 

I've said this in the past and I think it's apt still - there were plenty of friendly, kind, generous and peaceful Nazis in Europe.  I would even go as far as to say that the average Nazi was probably a decent human being.  But that doesn't mean that Nazism wasn't a scourge that needed to be eradicated as a movement.

If you really think thta 47% of American Christians see themselves as Christians first and Americans second or that nearly 1 in 10 American Christians thinks it's okay to murder people in the name of their religion then I don't know what to say to you.

Baker, you act like you are so certain you are right and others are merely a bunch of narrow minded bigoted xenophobes that you let it taint your actual impressions of JU.   I don't go around arguing that you're a naive apologist or whatever I would expect the same respect in return. 

You can't possibly deny that I'm educated on history as well as have researched this issue pretty thoroughly at this point.  I feel my conclusions are based thorough research and analysis.  I don't have any pre-existing prejudices against Muslims (no more than against any other religion).  I simply call it like I see it. 

From Wikipedia on "Left Behind: Eternal Forces"



Ask yourself how bloggers would react to a RTS Muslim game like that. I can't find the numbers of sales, but they are brisk enough to warrant expansion packs and an upcoming sequel. The books the game is based on have sold 63 MILLION copies.

If you don't think the evangelical has an undertone of paranoia and even militance, you're not looking. Look at what they expect to happen during the "end times". Look at how they respond to it.

If you think those people will claim that they are Americans before Christians, well, I don't think you really know enough about them to discuss them.

THIS statement I have to agree with, Baker. I do believe that for most people of faith their religious identity often precludes their national identity.

And I believe that is actually a GOOD thing. Serving the state is the essence of communism. Not a good thing, IMEABO.



I disagree strongly that the majority of Christians would, Baker. I went to some VERY fundamentalist churches in the day, and I know of very few who openly praised abortion clinic bombings and they were on the fringe within the churches. There are groups, of course, like Missionaries to the Preborn who I would consider prone to approve such violence, but I don't find them in large numbers in many churches.

The ideology of violent Muslims goes all the way back to Mohammed. It is pure spin to call Mohammed a man of peace, and you know it. While the "end times" theology is taught in many churches, most of those churches don't even believe we'll BE HERE for the "Left Behind" era, hence the title phrase.

I believe the reason you don't see more Muslim violence in America is not because of poverty, but because of opportunity. Muslims in America are still a minority and if they started acting out in the numbers that they do in the Middle East, there would be a violent backlash that would pretty much ensure their extinction. It is important for the extremist Muslims to gain political power BEFORE enacting violence. All you need to do is look to Europe, where they ARE gaining numbers and see the escalating violence there.

But then you don't even recognize the Inquisition as a (admittedly extremist, but understandable in light of the situation) backlash to the actions of the Moors in Spain, so I wouldn't expect you to see that.

I cry when I see a post like this.

Gideon, I hate to say it, but you obviously know NOTHING of the Inquisition. I do. I am from Barcelona. There is nothing understandable in that travesty of humanity. It was no backlash; it was bitter, virulent hatred against the only rulers that in the history of the world had brought Jew, Muslim and Christian together in the same community under a common rule and without horrible fighting.

And once the Muslims were gone in early 1492, they lashed out against the Jews (Sephardi Jews) with such rottenness that there is no excuse or understanding left.

Please, rethink your statement.

Can you imagine what the response would be if a Muslim here called Palestinian terrorism an "understandable backlash"? Yet somehow we can lower ourselves to the point we can call the Inquisition that? Hells bells...

I'll skip the viagra, I don't need it. But I'll take the other two, thank ya.