For those dreaming of more gun control, check this

From AP: Rules Should Have Barred Weapon Purchase {by VA Tech shooter}

As a follow-up to this earlier article: Privacy vs. Security vs. gun ownership rights Liberal cries for Gun Control don't mesh with their concerns for privacy rights, you might really want to take some time to read this:

Rules Should Have Barred Weapon Purchase

... an article by the Associated Press (carried by IWon and others), which includes this little nugget:


A judge's ruling on Cho Seung-Hui's mental health should have barred him from purchasing the handguns he used in the Virginia Tech massacre, according to federal regulations. But it was unclear Thursday whether anybody had an obligation to inform federal authorities about Cho's mental status because of loopholes in the law that governs background checks.

Cho purchased two handguns in February and March, and was subject to federal and state background checks both times. The checks turned up no problems, despite a judge's ruling in December 2005 that Cho "presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness."

"On the face of it, he should have been blocked under federal law," said Denis Henigan, legal director of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.


... and more still:


The 23-year-old South Korean immigrant was evaluated by a psychiatric hospital after he was accused of stalking two women and photographing female students in class with his cell phone. His violence-filled writings were so disturbing that professors begged him to get counseling.

The language of the ruling by Special Justice Paul M. Barnett almost identically tracks federal regulations from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Those rules bar the sale of guns to individuals who have been "adjudicated mentally defective."

The definition outlined in the regulations is "a determination by a court ... or other lawful authority that a person as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness ... is a danger to himself or to others."

Virginia State Police send information on prohibited buyers to the federal government. They maintain that the sale was legal under state law and would have been barred only if the justice had committed Cho to a psychiatric hospital. Barnett ordered outpatient treatment instead.

The Virginia attorney general's office declined to discuss the application of gun laws to Cho's case. Barnett also declined to comment.

The state uses a slightly different standard than the federal government, barring sales to individuals who have been judged "mentally incapacitated."


... and even more as the article continues with this other important information:


George Burke, a spokesman for Democratic Rep. Carolyn McCarthy of New York, said millions of criminal and mental-health records are not accessible to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, mostly because state and local governments lack the money to submit the records.

McCarthy has sponsored legislation since 2002 that would close loopholes in the national background check system for gun purchases.

Initially states were required to provide all relevant information to federal authorities when the instant background checks were enacted, but a U.S. Supreme Court ruling relieved them of that obligation.


Whew! That's a lot of info, I realize, but there's still more in the original article and I wanted to make sure to keep things straight and not put words into anyone's mouth here.

Where am I headed with all of this? Back to where I mentioned previously, in the article about Privacy vs. Security vs. Gun Ownership. As evidenced here in this news article, these issues were all at play and because of that, a man bent on destruction was able to get a gun.

Now, lest you think I'm a rabid NRA nut job that thinks there should be no restrictions on gun ownership, nothing is farther from the truth.  I've said before, and I'll repeat here that I think reasonable gun control is fine.  Requiring gun safety training before allowing individuals to get a gun is fine.  Background checks are fine.  Waiting periods (reasonable durations of no more than a month) are fine.  And even closing these loopholes would be fine.

What isn't needed here are knee jerk reactionary laws that are intended to make people feel good and sound as if we are tightening up gun laws when in fact we do nothing but make it more difficult for law abiding citizens to purchase handguns for their own protection, for purposes of sport (target shooting, hunting, etc.) or other good reasons.

We don't need the likes of Teddy Kennedy and others running out saying that if George W. Bush hadn't let the assault weapons ban die (sorry for the bad pun) then perhaps some people would still be alive today that were killed during the rampage at Virginia Tech.  If these people haven't noticed, the killer in this particular case used weapons with fairly small clips, but was still able to kill far too many people. 

It does still leave me with questions in my mind about just how he was able to fatally wound that many people with small arms fire, knowing that he likely had to reload or must have somehow lined people up in some way that made it easier for him to kill more than one person with each shot he fired.  How so many fatal shots were fired without somebody, anybody, trying to behave in a heroic manner, trying to rush the shooter, and trying to take him out, or otherwise finding a way out of the situation (throwing a chair, book, cup of Starbucks coffee into the face of the shooter also comes to mind) is leaving me scratching me head a bit.

Especially considering that college students usually feel somewhat indestructible.  I'm sure that thoughts of self-preservation kicked in, but seeing a gunman firing shots all over and leaving yourself and others potentially exposed without being able to slow him down somehow just seems unimaginable.  It seems like something would have happened before the body count got so high.

I digress though, and it gets away from my original point that the something that should have happened long before the incident occured could potentially have happened if we didn't have so many rules and restrictions on the use of vitally important -- but most definitely personal, and typically very private and confidential -- information.  If there weren't so many protections built into the laws covering the privacy of the shooter, then perhaps some more sharing of information may have happened and perhaps his mental health issues and mental stability would have been duly noted well enough to have actually prevented him from getting the weaponry he got.  It may not have stopped his efforts, it may have led him to use other means of destructions, but it would certainly have kept him from using guns to do the deed with.

2,906 views 4 replies
Reply #1 Top

I should also add again that of course none of this Monday morning (or whatever day it is) quarterbacking will get the victims back again or make things right for the people involved.  The person that commited these horrible acts was determined to do something horrible and he did.  Taking every reasonable precaution to prevent it was the right idea, and based on the news we've seen it seems that many people tried just that, but were prevented along the way because of safeguards and protections we have built into our laws to help keep innocent people out of the hands of the state.

You could imagine the yells and screams that might have erupted if the shooter had been tossed into a mental institution against his will.  I'm sure that the likes of the ACLU would have been all over getting him released, claiming that he'd done nothing wrong, and that locking up a person based on their thoughts or writings was just plain wrong.

I hate to be extremely cynical, but I actually wish that the shooter had been locked away, had gotten out with help from such groups, and had all of that happen before he went on his rampage.  Perhaps it would have reminded us all the more that being too concerned with the rights of one individual, especially one with questionable mental health, could and did lead to it all mushrooming into a chain of horrible events.

Reply #2 Top
How so many fatal shots were fired without somebody, anybody, trying to behave in a heroic manner, trying to rush the shooter, and trying to take him out, or otherwise finding a way out of the situation (throwing a chair, book, cup of Starbucks coffee into the face of the shooter also comes to mind) is leaving me scratching me head a bit.


That has me wondering a bit as well. If that happened here, I would certainly look for an opening to rush the guy. I certainly wouldn't sit around and wait for death...I'd have to try something.

~Zoo
Reply #3 Top
That has me wondering a bit as well. If that happened here, I would certainly look for an opening to rush the guy. I certainly wouldn't sit around and wait for death...I'd have to try something.


Really? Are you certain? That would be a very unusual reaction. The whole reason these crimes can happen is because humans, like bees, aren't good at reacting to attacks that occur within 'the hive'. Outside and obvious aggressors? We're fine. But people who attack us in our homes or workplaces? We run around like chickens with our heads cut off, not knowing what to do or when.

I have only contempt for people who claim they wouldn't be victims but themselves have never been heroes in that kind of situation before. You don't know and, if you're lucky, you won't know.

There's no shame in being a coward when you're surprised, frightened, unarmed and your last name isn't McGyver.
Reply #4 Top

Cho purchased two handguns in February and March, and was subject to federal and state background checks both times. The checks turned up no problems, despite a judge's ruling in December 2005 that Cho "presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness."

"On the face of it, he should have been blocked under federal law," said Denis Henigan, legal director of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.


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... and more still:


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The 23-year-old South Korean immigrant was evaluated by a psychiatric hospital after he was accused of stalking two women and photographing female students in class with his cell phone. His violence-filled writings were so disturbing that professors begged him to get counseling.


Then he outright lied on his background checks! The questions about were you ever evaluated for a mental condition are very specifically asked on all the forms! Although someone, somewhere along the line dropped the ball. His evals are supposed to be put in the system and obviously weren't.

IE:


3) Persons who have been adjudicated as a mental defective or have been committed to a mental institution

Criteria for Entry

The Department of Veteran Affairs, the Department of Defense, and state law enforcement have the authority to enter and update records on persons who have been adjudicated as mental defectives or have been committed to mental institutions.


From the FBI page:


There are six categories for entry into the NICS, two of which are related to individuals determined to be "mental defectives." These files are the Mental Defective File and the Denied Persons File. Currently, 22 states1 submit mental health information to the NICS Index through these two files.

In accordance with regulations set forth by the Brady Law, specific information must be provided to the NICS Index, including supporting documentation to prove an individual was adjudicated as a mental defective or involuntarily committed for treatment. If state legislation or privacy laws prohibit the sharing of mental health information, states can provide information for inclusion in the Denied Persons File of NICS with no specifics on the mental health issue. The Denied Persons File also includes convictions not in the NCIC or III, indictments and informations, warrants, misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence and protection orders
As of April 1, 2007, the Commonwealth of Virginia has entered over 80,000 mental health records into the NICS index, along with over 104,000 into the Denied Persons File. In addition, Virginia is the leading state in reporting mental defective entries for the NICS index.