Perma-invincibility? Let's find out!

from Sins Forums
We have a claim in a different thread that Armistice can be made permanent with as few as three Akkans recycling the ability. Furthermore, the theory goes, doing this can effectively make you invincible.

However, right now that claim is theoretical. We have had only one attempt mentioned, and that failed.

Deadlyshoe has seen a potential problem with an in-game ability. Since we have access to that ability, we do not need to wait until the other races come out to look at it in detail.

It's up to us as beta-testers to try and attain invincibility through perma-armistice (or any other means). While this would be easier to test in multiplayer with a cooperative human opponent, for now tests against the AI will do.

So now I'd like to ask all interested beta testers (I'll be trying it myself) to do the following:

1. Devise your setup. Whether it be a bottleneck in concert with other units or just defending your home planet, decide how you are going to attain your invincible status through the use of Armistice.

2. Attain your setup. Work quickly to put your Akkans and any support units into play as fast as possible. The theory goes that permanent invincibility can be achieved with as few as three Akkans, but feel free to use more. While setting up, try and leave the opposing teams as strong as possible - the bigger the fleets and resources they can send at you, the better.

3. Let them come. Once your invincible setup is attained, put it to work by not building any more ships or structures. If you can hold out indefinitely against the AI, then you have done well.

4. Come post the results. Tell us about your setup and why it worked or failed, so other beta testers can try different methods and learn from our own mistakes.
9,490 views 30 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
i'll give it a whirl tonight
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
I'll definitely try it out after I'm done completing homework. It is on my list of things to try. This is a good step guys, if people have beefs and theories, we should be trying them out like this(ALL OF US) cause even if only one person can get it to work then it IS a viable strategy.

Although I'm in favour of keeping this strategy in, knowing its limit/strength is a good thing.
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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
Your in favour of keeping it in the game? Its clearly a design flaw if its possible.

What would the fun be if you couldnt wipe out your enemy just becouse he have 3 cruisers with a certain ability.

I think the idea behind its design was to allow fleets to escape and use it to retreat.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
I've said this many times before, wait and see what the other two races have before we start asking for abilities and ships to be nerfed.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
I agree with Lock_Eye, thats why I say leave it be, I'm sure they accounted for this already.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Lock eye does have a point.

Its only beta 1 you guys.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
The reason I say we should wait, is because you can't balance a race against itself. I am sure Armistice is in for a perfect reason. Thank you LodossKnight and TheGreatEmperor for agreeing.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
Alright, I'll try it tonight as well
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
for all we know, every race could have an ability to counter this
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
I've said this many times before, wait and see what the other two races have before we start asking for abilities and ships to be nerfed.

hellz, no.
for all we know, every race could have an ability to counter this

that still makes it unbalanced.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
Sentient, we are months until the multiplayer Beta, when you have a problem with the ability then. Then its appropriate to ask for it to be addressed. Beta 1 is about system compatibility. And until we have the other two races, and the rest of the TEC nerfing is a moot point. Just live with it. Or make a list of future potential problems. But don't drink the wine until you have the cheese!
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
Schem is stuborn, I suggest you leave him be.

If he sees some logic in what he is doing, it is a garuantee that he wont listen to anyone else.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
Balancing of any kind at this point in time will be useless. As Lock Eye said this is only the 1st beta, and it is only to test system compatibility, performance on a wide range of systems, and very basic game play. The purpose of Beta 1 is to make sure the game WORKS. There will be many more updates to come. TEC still has much content that is not enabled yet, and we have yet to see the Vasari, or Advent in action.

I do agree that Armistice is kind of annoying right now. Because 9 of 10 times i DONT want my ships to stop fighting. In later betas if it becomes a really big problem vs the Advent, and Vasari then lets talk about nerfing it. Untill then just turn the auto ability off.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
Beta 1 is about system compatibility

its never to early to correct a mistake.
especially a horrid, disgusting sick wierd CRAZY ASS one like this one.
If he sees some logic in what he is doing, it is a garuantee that he wont listen to anyone else.

I'm sorry that nobody else sees the travesty in this. shame, what a shame.
But don't drink the wine until you have the cheese!

so I should sit down and accept something so terribly wrong... just because... I should?
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
Again, let them try.

If they prove their point, then we would have something to go on when the other races are given to you guys.

I dont see how this could possibly be a step back. Yes, its beta 1, but that only means that for now the devs will ignore it, OR change the other race abilities to counter act it.

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
Again, let them try

I think the Devs realize the mistake. nobody (except you crazy folk) wants this in gameplay, its just insane.
Yes, its beta 1, but that only means that for now the devs will ignore it, OR change the other race abilities to counter act it.

1) ignoring it is generally a bad idea.
2) counteracting it with 1 or 2 other abilities is a worse idea. that would also rely on you having the luck to have forseen your enemy having pulled such a tactic, additionally what if your enemy pulls 15+ armistice ships out of his ass? what then?
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
lol Schem, lets not get too excited just yet. So far as I know, nobody has managed to actually pull it off yet. So for all we know there is already something built into the game to prevent it from happening.
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
Schem just trying to generate a bunch of hot air over nothing to fill in the empty spaces in his head
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
There are other 'features' of the game that would surely prevent this from ever happening. I can't give anything away
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
Thank you for the Reply Craig, that shoudl settle this for now guys.

Although I do agree, perhaps a "potential problems" thread should be created and stickied. Anyone up for it?(If so, never hurts to start one)
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
Hold on now - all these arguments are premature.

First, the comments regarding the beta phase: I realize that this beta is for system compatability, and I'm happy to report that everything runs smoothly and I've had no sound problems. If I encounter them during play, I'll be right here reporting it. In the meantime, I and other interested people can test other things, like this possible exploit.

A minor point - this isn't something everyone needs to be testing. This is one of many special abilities, and special abilities are one of many features of the whole game. Tests regarding the use of such an exploit are best left to those interested in finding out about it - I fully encourage other testers to look into other facets of the game... that trade money bug was a fine example.

And now, points for everyone on why these arguments are too early:

1. We haven't even confirmed that there's a problem at all. The notion of perma-invinciblity is, at this time, purely theoretical based on one person looking at special ability refresh rates. As of this post, we have ONE attempt at perma-invinciblity from a different thread, and that failed. We cannot proceed until someone can set up and maintain an invincible status, and then make the exact method for doing so known here on this thread so that others can repeat and confirm those results. Then - and only then, can we move to step 2:

2. If and when we confirm that you can attain perma-invincibility against the AI... we wait. The faction we're playing now is incomplete, and we're pitting ourselves aganst the AI - and AI is easy to fool with simple tricks. Anyone ever build sandbags in the original Command and Conquer? The AI wouldn't attack walls - you could sandbag your way into the enemy base and keep yourself completely safe. So if we attain perma-invincibility against the AI, then we wait for multiplayer and we try it against a human with at least one 'complete' faction. Then, and only then, can we speak up and proclaim it is definitely a problem of some sort. The actions taken in step 3 depend wholly on test results.

3. If we can become invincible against any human or AI opponent with any given faction, then we can say the ability is broken and needs to be changed. If we can beat the AI but not humans, then the AI needs to be improved. If we can't beat anyone but it still is somehow massively unbalancing for the cost of use, then we can examine it from that standpoint, and then all these lovely arguments can ensue.


Right now all we are in a position to do is test a theory against the AI. So let us test and see what results we get. If someone discovers perma-invincibility, that gives us a method we can take right into a multiplayer game when we have the opportunity. If nobody manages it, then the fear of the ability being broken should be somewhat lessened.


This thread reads like an odd mix of do's and dont's in beta testings. I don't claim to have all the answers, but here's my mindset:

1. The devs can't test everything, nor can they forsee the potential results of every special ability or combination thereof. With a massive force of players, exploits and ways to 'munchkinize' as system are often discovered and used. It is never too early for beta testers to discover and note such an exploit.

2. It is often premature for an early beta to call any given ability an exploit without a nearly complete version of the game to test it against - and other humans to help with the test.

Think of this thread as marking something to watch. If someone manages permanent invincibility against the AI, we can mark 'Armistice' as something that needs further examination and probing. We'll roll it out again when a faction is fully complete or the multiplayer beta begins. If it consistently allows permanent invinciblity in all cases, then we can figure out how to fix it.


I can see that the developers have made a good game, and I believe that Sins of a Solar Empire is going to be a blast to play. Each decision they have made regarding the game has had much more consideration than any of us are likely to give it. And yet the nails get bent here and there, and an unforseen use of an ability may be more powerful than the designer imagined. We should not have faith that the developers have 'planned for all contingencies', but we should trust that the developers will listen to us when we have discovered a real problem, and must be patient to be sure that we have indeed discovered a problem before we bring it to them.
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
Just tested it and it is possible to be invincible permanently. This can even be automated after about two minutes. While this can be a very effective defensive strategy, the fact that you can't attack either can be your undoing very easily. While I haven't tested this I'm sure someone can use an EMP to disable your cruisers as you need to wait for the ability of the previous cruiser to expire, then the next one can be activated. Since the AI doesn't use this strategy and I haven't seen them use EMPs that much it is a very hard theory to test. But in essence even though it makes you invincible it allows your opponent to gather his fleet in your system, since you can't harm them, then they can possible just unleash an EMP in the second between the expiration of the old instance of armistice and the initiation of the new version. This in turn will allow him to kill one or more of the cruisers putting a hamper on your ability to stay invincible unless you have massive amounts of cruisers. So, while this is a good defensive strategy against AI, it is expensive, as the range of the ability isn't anything special, and it could possibly be overcome quite easily in multiplayer gameplay.
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
This is all good stuff to know for the future, gang. However, as was stated, Beta 1 is mostly about compatibility and core gameplay.  This stuff is more along the lines of what we'll be looking to address in later betas, as there is a LOT of things missing in this build. Making assumptions on incomplete data doesn't help.   I suggest keeping these issues in mind and revisiting them later. At that point we'll be able to determine if there's an actual issue or not that needs to be fixed.
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
Thank you Botha - so as of now it's possible, and we have a suggested counter that sounds like it could work.

So now (as Yarlen says) we wait and try it in multiplayer and against the AI once the various factions are fleshed out. If it's a tactic that the AI can't or won't beat, we can examine ways that humans can beat it and get the AI to do the same.
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
The Sky is Falling!

Crap, I am a chicken little...

I suggest keeping these issues in mind and revisiting them later.


I'll try to keep my trap shut until Multiplayer beta when this stuff can really be tested as to its effectiveness.