The Death Of The American Dream

Uncle Sam Unmasked

from JoeUser Forums
The death of the American dream may sound extreme, but it can no longer be denied that the US has lost a lot of prestige in the world over this revelation that America tortures civilians. To be fair to myself, I must say I've told people this and was laughed at, I explained and provided evidence of what I said only to be laughed at. The common American now can see what their nation has done to another nation, remorselessly. Even I, Mikimouse, the bane of your existence, was disgusted and in fact surprised when I saw the depraved graphic sadistic nature of the offending images. What kind of animals is the US producing to make and allow such things to happen? Keep in mind that there were sometimes over a dozen pairs of boots in those pictures. It's obvious the US isn't interested in what's good for the Iraqi people, and that's a shame. More will die needlessly, and many will be American. Teaching this to my boys is difficult, but necessary. They need to know what the US is doing to innocent people. They can't be brought up with their heads in the sand. It's your duty to teach what's true. Anything less is treason as a parent.
politics
13,382 views 27 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
The average US soldier doesn't do terrible things like those in the photos. And those are not civilians, they are enemy combatants. It doesn't make it right, but they are NOT civilians.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
one who smokes crack could think that, while those that don't read things like http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=506202§ion=news
Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top

they are enemy combatants.


Which means they are protected by the Geneva Convention.  There is no doubt that it was wrong.  The question that remains is: "how are we going to fix it?"


I don't think that it is the death of the American dream; rather, it's a dent in our moral pedestal--it will take some hard work and effort to regain our "moral high ground."

Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
shades you're speaking of here and there. Not in the Arab world = where it counts most.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Mikimouse you must be immensely sheltered if you think that the worse case of abuse, is the small amount of soldiers that abused those Iraqi's. There are much worse atrocities that have occured in the past and present that other nations have done in the midst of battle and for other reasons. We largely have come to other people's aid because of those same atrocities. Most Americans in the U.S. will unanimously agree that what happened was wrong and unacceptable, many nations would not consider it as deeply as we do, partly because we are held to a higher standard. Those soldiers might have been acting with their emotions. Soldiers in Iraq have to see some of their fellow soldiers get murdered by Iraqi insurgents and would only be impaired by their anger. You shouldn't let what a small minority of people do dictate how you feel about people as a whole. What you're saying is basically like saying because of Hitler you hate all Germans which would be an obtuse way of thinking. The sad part is many people think in this way which is why negative publicity like this is so detrimental towards the image of the average American citizen. Why aren't you calling the Iraqi's animals (even though I don't consider them animals but for the sake of fairness on your part) considering the incident in Fallujah? Your feelings against Americans are blatant and makes your reasoning biased.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yes, there are worse atrocities committed: Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin etc.

So what?

It doesn't make it right.

Comparing it to worse cases doesn't get you any moral points. What anyone else does is irrelevant. Trying to understand why they did it is not relevant.

This is still wrong.

Anyone who is defending this abominable practise better make his or hers points clear, because this is may be one of the incidents that marks the downfall of the US.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
It doesn't make it right

You're right It doesn't make it right. I am not arguing that which I blatantly stated in the reply. What I am saying by that is put it into it's context, which means you shouldn't base your opinion on all Americans on what a small minority did. I also stated that most Americans agree with you about it being wrong. Are you reading the same reply I am?

Anyone who is defending this abominable practise better make his or hers points clear, because this is may one of the incidents that marks the downfall of the US.

I am not defending this "practise" or I'm sure you meant practice. I am sure you are just one of many who have said "this marks the downfall of the U.S." only to have been wrong in the end. As far as I can see in this post no one is defending these practices so who are you replying to?
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
Everybody's overreacting. That said, what they did was bad and an example should be made out of them, but this is hardly new or hardly exclusive to the US. Of course, I understand that anti-Americanism will cause people to make too much out of the situation to make America look as bad as they can. Also, what's funny is that those who are against America are blaming the entire nation for these soldiers' actions, and not those who are really responsible: the soldiers and those who covered it up. Of course, you can't really take these people seriously.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Those soldiers might have been acting with their emotions"
excuse me but I saw the pics of that ugly witch giving the thumbs up. So emotional....a huge grin on her face! Lmao. Youse a drone to say that crap.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Those soldiers might have been acting with their emotions"
excuse me but I saw the pics of that ugly witch giving the thumbs up. So emotional....a huge grin on her face! Lmao. Youse a drone to say that crap.


You may not understand or it may be too complex, but it is a definite factor. She could very well be angry overall not just at the moment, you know people can do that. It still does not condone her actions and she should be punished accordingly, but like I said you have to try to understand the cause not only the effect something which seems beyond your capabilites, Mikimouse. I am sure wherever it is you live the overall sentiment is to dislike Americans, whether in the media or from the people that reside there which is what influences you into feeling the way you do. If you are going to talk about drones you may want to look into the mirror. You should do yourself a favor and not teach your kids how to hate so early but as they say to each his own. I wouldn't go as far as calling Iraqis animals yet you call Americans animals just because of a small minority, that shows characterisitics of discrimination. You probably are very biased as a person.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
You can see how a country is civilized by how they treats POWs. USA, in general, is pretty good on that. That is very bad exceptions. There is exceptions to everything. Does it excuse those solders. Hell no. I hope the goverment punishes those bastards.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
The government needs to do more than punish them. It needs to punish itself and it's policies that allowed those soldiers to systematically commit torture.

It now turns out that the red cross told the US government over a year ago about the torture. 1 year of doing nothing! How can any civilised country accept that it knowingly allowed torture to go on for 1 year without doing anything. That is what needs to be dealt with. That is what must be punished and changed. There will always be sick invididuals, it's the system that must stop them, not encourage them.

Paul.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Psychx: Yes, my response was a little harsh, I was tired and angry. It wasn't directed at you as much, but yours was the last post I saw... I'm not blaming all americans for this, but I've seen a lot of people trivializing, defending and apologizing this incident. My post was a sort of summary of my feelings on this. I'm just sick of the whole thing.

Thanks for pointing out the spelling error, though. English isn't my first language...Guess I'll have to "practise" it a little more

Solitair: I completely agree.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
Corio: I am glad that you acknowledge that it was harsh and I can understand that you are sick of it. I apologize for making an issue of your spelling. I know you weren't saying all Americans are at fault and I agree with the fact that everyone that was involved in this situation should be punished accordingly. As Americans we cannot let something like this happen, we should be an example for the rest of the world and incidents like this are unacceptable. I know that what you said was harsh but it wasn't completely wrong either, I was really referring to Mikimouse's apparent ignorance when I said that he shouldn't categorize all Americans because of what a small minority did. Anyone that discriminates against all people of a certain nation just because of the acts of a handful of its citizens is just plain ignorant that is the best word to describe it. I will use an analogy; Do I think all Iraqi's are evil just because a handful dragged the burnt bodies of 4 Americans, no of course not, I would not let what a small minority of people do dictate how I feel towards all their people that would be foolish and a very uneducated way of thinking. I am sure we can all agree that being prejudiced is ignorant and that is simply what it boils down to. I usually don't reply with such fervor but this struck a nerve. Peace
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
psych where I live everyone at the least likes the US as I do as well. Most aspects. But listen you sillyhead fool: all I do is tell the fucking truth about what YOUR country did. Here's how it works. Your country sexually humiliates innocent Iraqi civilians and I point out how bad that is and then you say "mikimouse hates America". Fuck you for that. If your country would refrain from commiting war crimes I wouldn't point it out for your tired eyes to read. If they didn't shoot babies in Vietnam I wouldn't say it's bad how they shot babies. So fuck you. Ask your leaders to stop killing innocents and I'll shut the fuck up. Of get Dragman to ban me like he does when he hates what others say constantly. BOO!
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
psych where I live everyone at the least likes the US as I do as well. Most aspects. But listen you sillyhead fool: all I do is tell the fucking truth about what YOUR country did. Here's how it works. Your country sexually humiliates innocent Iraqi civilians and I point out how bad that is and then you say "mikimouse hates America". Fuck you for that. If your country would refrain from commiting war crimes I wouldn't point it out for your tired eyes to read. If they didn't shoot babies in Vietnam I wouldn't say it's bad how they shot babies. So fuck you. Ask your leaders to stop killing innocents and I'll shut the fuck up. Of get Dragman to ban me like he does when he hates what others say constantly. BOO!


You know it was foolish of me to expect an actual intellectual response from someone of your intellect. So far you have gone to stricly cursing at me which shows your weak vocabulary and the fact that you cannot remain civilized in an argument. You are not only proving my statement of your ignorance, you are also not even worth my time. I am sorry for ever initially posting I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you could form some sort of informed response but I was absolutely wrong. I will not post on this blog anymore because I don't want to give it any more points than it deserves. What I feel for you is pity not anger. WIth that said good day sir.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
Whoo bad grammar from me.

Anyway, mikimouse you shouldn't resort to trying to "take down a peg". Don't ever lower yourself to anyone else's level, they will beat you with experience.

Same time, You seems to have plenty of experience.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top

shades you're speaking of here and there. Not in the Arab world = where it counts most


I was speaking of in the Arab world--that's where we need to "fix it."  The first step to fixing it is to take some responsibility for what happened, and I am surprised that Rumsfeld actually did.  To be honest, I was shocked that Rumsfeld said he is fully accountable and responsible.  Solitar (as usual) is correct in his assessment--why did it take so long?  Rumsfeld is now warning us that we haven't see the worst of it. 


Yes, we all know it was wrong.  Again, the question is: how do we "fix" it?  Any suggestions?

Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
mikimouse - calm down. This is your article. You could happily have deleted an offending reply instead of responding as such. I suggest you do delete your reply becuase of it's language.

psychx - you have a problem with people categorising all Americans because of what a small minority did. The real problem isn't what they did though. The problem is the system that allowed them to knowing continue doing it for 1 year. The system that felt it was acceptable to torture the prisoners to soften them up before interrogation. That is a problem for ALL Americans as it's their system. Do I lump all Americans into the same category as the few sick individuals who committed these crimes? No! But I do expect all americans to realise that they have a problem they need to fix and to stop pointing the finger of blame at the few and pretending the system is not at fault.

Paul.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
If you ask any one who has been in Iraq in the last couple weeks, this story is FAR, FAR bigger in the United States than Iraq.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
"To be honest, I was shocked that Rumsfeld said he is fully accountable and responsible"
ahhhh to live in a fake democracy....why would you possibly be surprised? Why? Because you know leaders here take no responsibility. You're odd.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
Of course it's a huge story in the US. The liberal media thinks they have what they need to help John F'n Kerry beat Bush. The people who are calling for Rummy to resign or be fired have hated him all along.

It's blown way out of proportion. A handful of people did bad things, and they should be held accountable. Don't condemn the entire US Armed Forces because of the actions of a few.

The video on the internet of Nick Berg being killed by TERRORISTS reminds you of what we're dealing with; cold blooded murderers. Make sure you teach your children about that too miki.


Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top

ahhhh to live in a fake democracy....why would you possibly be surprised? Why? Because you know leaders here take no responsibility. You're odd.


First of all, I am not odd, I just recognize reality.  Second of all, political leader's ability to take responsibility has nothing to do with democracy--the people hold them accountable by voting, that's where democracy comes into play.

Third, I was shocked by the way he said it.  He didn't skirt around the issue as politicians typically do.  He stated, "I failed."  It's jarring to hear anyone say that now-a-days.


Also, aren't you Canadian?  I'm confused by your use of the word "here" which implies that you are in the US.

Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
I live in Central Canada. We means the west generally, as it's folly to think the CDN politicians are any different.
"He stated, "I failed." It's jarring to hear anyone say that now-a-days." sadly that is totally true. sorry.
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
Enemy combatants Ed?
Get your information straight. By the Pentagon's own admission, in excess of 70% of the people in that prison aren't guilty of anything. They've already interviewed people in those photos who have since been released without charge.