An analogy even a socialist could understand

"But $25 a week is cheap, either you are hiring illegals or you have a doggon small yard!"

hiring illegals, street kids?

"The government is not answerable enough."

$10 billion MISSING IN IRAQ! You are making lots of sense here Brad.

"This is because cheap food is the worst food for you, back years ago poor were skinny because poor people were eating the same food as everyone else - just much much less of it. People of advantage these days, tend to eat much healthier, organic, and no saturated fats."

That is such stereo-typical crap. It's not like healthy food is hundreds of dollars a lb. The obesity crisis is about portion size, 24/7 mass marketing in every medium, and pop cultures / societies acceptance of fast food as acceptable weekly consumption. In addition to this myth, that everybody must be on-the-go, or live the on-the-go lifestyle. Soups in a cup, cupholders in every automobile, laws against eating while driving. There are plenty of factors contributing to obesity, and people's changing eating habits, not the price of food.

"You can eat well and eat cheaply, despite the claims of others"

Yes you can. Unless you let society/media/and word on the street give out your facts.

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Look a vast majority of cheap food is;

1) Overprocessed.
2) High in saturated fats.
3) High Calories

You don't see poor people eating raw foods, sushi, or organic meats and fruit. You see them eating the same old garbage over and over again, a box of macaroni and cheese with some hotdogs and a soda or whatever. I've seen how poor people eat first hand, I have read the stories, and I see the nutritional reports.This is the reason for obesity among the poor, NOT because they have a lot of welfare money and are being overfed by the system.

Foodstamps should only work at farmer markets and whole food, or other organic stores. Then in 10-15 years you won't see nearly as many obese poor people. Seriously, 50 years ago poor people had virtually identical diets to everyone else - they just ate less and were skinnier because of that. Today they have diets that don't even come close to resembling the rest of us - NOT EVEN CLOSE - and they eat far far more of it because it is cheap.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

This is because cheap food is the worst food for you, back years ago poor were skinny because poor people were eating the same food as everyone else - just much much less of it. People of advantage these days, tend to eat much healthier, organic, and no saturated fats. Ever go into Whole Foods? You'll find nothing but extremely healthy looking people that shop there. Ever go into Walmart? A bunch of obese poor people pushing around 5 kids playing in a shopping cart.

The cheapest foods aren't actually the ones that are bad for you. The cheapest instant-meals and cheapest restraunt foods are.

I would suggest that the issue is that most (key word is most as in most not all) people who are poor are poor because they are lazy or unmotivated. And it's a lot easier to pick up bags of chips and eat at McDonalds than pay cents on the dollar for healthy foods that can be cooked.

My wife chooses to cook healthy foods that are largely from scratch. We don't stock up on Hot Pockets or whatever.

As for moving the company, that's not a practical thing to do at this point even if I could get my wife to go along with it.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

1) Overprocessed.
2) High in saturated fats.
3) High Calories

You don't see poor people eating raw foods, sushi, or organic meats and fruit. You see them eating the same old garbage over and over again, a box of macaroni and cheese with some hotdogs and a soda or whatever. I've seen how poor people eat first hand, I have read the stories, and I see the nutritional reports.This is the reason for obesity among the poor, NOT because they have a lot of welfare money and are being overfed by the system.

We agree but the question is - why are they eating pre-made macaroni and cheese with pre-made hot dogs and soda?

My kids aren't allowed to drink soda. They usually choose water or lemonade -- both which are cheaper.

Most poor people, and I know people don't like admitting this but it's true, are losers. Not all. But most. They are unmotivated and lazy. And when it comes time to eat, they just do whatever is easiest for them.

Even if they had more money, they would still be obese because they'd still just gobble down whatever was easiest to cram down their throats. And potato ships and hot pockets and soda are a lot easier to stuff into ones mouth than picking up a chicken and roasting it for hours or buying a roast and cooking that and then turning the left overs into stew. The obese poor don't do that. For the same reason they can't be bothered to work or live responsibility, they don't eat responsibly.

And why should they be responsible when daddy government is going to take care of them anyway? And even as they take their free money from the government, they would spit on and curse the very producers who are paying for them and call them greedy and uncompassionate because we live in an age where compassion is now based on accepting an absence of personal standards in others.

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Kinda negative in that last one knocking poor people, fat people, and people who rely on the government. LOL.

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When I am feeling ambitious in the kitchen, which occurs about 3 times a week, I create wonderfully delicious gormet meals from scratch. They consist of decadently flavorful sauces of cheese, wine, or truffles. Sometimes a rich curry is my fancy with mounds of raisan filled cous-cous. Heaping helpings of my self-prepared penne, spaghetti, fettucine and linquine with rich red sauces infused with lots of red wine are often my choice. And my homemade desserts....mmmm, don't get me started; custards, puddings, pastries, etc.

When I'm feeling too lazy to cook I just toss a Lean Cuisine into the microwave.

I can't, for the life of me, figure out why I'm overweight?

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Foodstamps should only work at farmer markets and whole food, or other organic stores.

I disagree. I don't know if you're aware of this, but ALL "organic" is is a label. There is plenty of food on the market that is just as nutritious that does not bear the "organic" label. Even the food out of your garden cannot be labelled "organic" unless it meets a strict certification process.

Foodstamps as we know it should be completely eliminated, actually. If we're going to encourage people to eat healthy, it should be replaced with a voucher system. But barring one of those two choices, we need to cut food stamp expenditures.

I honestly am offended at Noumenon's suggestion that because my family saves money I am neglecting my children's nutrition. Know what kind of bread my kids eat? Whole grain, all the time. But the same bread YOU pay $3.99 a loaf for I buy for 85 cents because you're too snooty to buy at thrift stores. As for fresh produce, we buy on sale and in season. If it's not in season at a fair price, we buy something else. I shop for FAR cheaper than most people in America, and, while we don't always eat the best foods, we eat better foods than many people who spend 2-3 times as much.

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I don't know if you're aware of this, but ALL "organic" is is a label.

"Organic" also is what they think the Spinach E-Coli came from - trying to be organic and instead poisoning half a nation.

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"If my taxes are 35%, then I am literally enslaved to the government for over 4 months just to the federal government."

You could choose to not pay taxes, or to make less then your tax bracket, or setup shop in a country that doesn't have an income tax. You were telling us that because of your affluence you are able to decide to do things, that the rest of us fat losers, I mean people can't, so have you looked into flying to another nation and becoming a citizen in perhaps the tropics?

Certainly you can find a climate better then Michigan to live in.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

"If my taxes are 35%, then I am literally enslaved to the government for over 4 months just to the federal government."

You could choose to not pay taxes, or to make less then your tax bracket, or setup shop in a country that doesn't have an income tax. You were telling us that because of your affluence you are able to decide to do things, that the rest of us fat losers, I mean people can't, so have you looked into flying to another nation and becoming a citizen in perhaps the tropics?

Certainly you can find a climate better then Michigan to live in.

It must be nice to be able to pretend the world is a different place than what it actually is in order to feel smuggly morally superior.

The obesity rate amongst the poor is higher than any other segment. This is a fact. It's not opinion.

And if you don't see the moral issue of men with guns (the government) confiscating the property (income) that someone makes in order to hand it over to someone who has done nothing at all to earn it then perhaps it is you that should go to some banana republic.

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"The obesity rate amongst the poor is higher than any other segment."

Agree.

"the moral issue of men with guns (the government) confiscating the property (income) that someone makes"

Again, are there no countries on Earth, where this government with guns comes to take your money away?

Maybe I don't see an issue with a government, which is really just a rules organization, keeping order or attempting to do so, within the confines of it's jurisdiction. See "Iraq" for a situation where it government doesn't happen.

How do you suggest the government do that, asking for donations? I have agreed with you in every respect when you have been talking about being more capitalistic then socialist. I have never sided with the socialists wholly, nor would I, See U.S.S.R for that explanation. What we have here in the United States is not economic slavery, we have a balanced system that takes care of the bottom segments better then it should but at the benefit of all, including you, no major rioting/civil strife, a growing economy, excellent confidence in the system, and investment opportunities all over the place.

In exchange, those of you at the top or near the top of the economic tax bracket, can walk into any bank with a proven record of ability to generate wealth and get a loan rate lower then I, or anyone without that. You can also choose much more so your daily destiny. As your own boss you can take a day off whenever you want, throw a party at the office whenever you want. Order 25 different kind of pizza's and have a half slice of each kind. LOL. I think you might overlook the perks of being able to make free-er financial decisions.

As for how the government operates, yes it is inefficient, it is slower the the private sector, it is a huge operation that can't count, it is a great and a terrible customer to the private sector, and it is what it is. But it is also keeper of the place of the most potential, and most opportunity worldwide and that is something you have to respect.

As for you though, you surely have the economic resources to make a move, seriously, are there no places in the tropics outside the income-tax jurisdiction where you could base from, the Caribbean, Jamaican, Bahamas, someplace like that? Michigan, on the other hand, until it succeeds from the union will have to pay federal income taxes indefinetly. If the weather is anything like in Wisconsin, maybe a day later, it sucks.

"smuggly morally superior"

Really?

It isn't like they don't confiscate a particularly painful part of my paycheck each week either Brad. Each individual dollar they take of mine is more valuable proportionally then each of yours.

It is you and others who categorize me that way, not I. I apologize for making you feel that I am smuggly morally superior.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

"the moral issue of men with guns (the government) confiscating the property (income) that someone makes"

Again, are there no countries on Earth, where this government with guns comes to take your money away?

Maybe I don't see an issue with a government, which is really just a rules organization, keeping order or attempting to do so, within the confines of it's jurisdiction. See "Iraq" for a situation where it government doesn't happen.

Don't selectively quote. It's dishonest debating at its lowest.

Add the rest back: The issue is taking money from one individual to hand to another individual.

Do you grasp the difference? We aren't talking about money being used for roads or other "public" good but literally given to another individual in exchange for nothing.

If you don't know how to debate, don't participate. Your attempt to misrepresent what I wrote to being that I'm against taxation is disgusting and contemptible.

I wrote:

And if you don't see the moral issue of men with guns (the government) confiscating the property (income) that someone makes in order to hand it over to someone who has done nothing at all to earn it then perhaps it is you that should go to some banana republic.

and then you address:

"the moral issue of men with guns (the government) confiscating the property (income) that someone makes"

Completely changes what was being said.

It isn't like they don't confiscate a particularly painful part of my paycheck each week either Brad. Each individual dollar they take of mine is more valuable proportionally then each of yours.

It is you and others who categorize me that way, not I. I apologize for making you feel that I am smuggly morally superior.

Spoken as a true class warfare artist. Your property is not more valuable than my property or vice versa. We both earned it.

As for your final comment, no need to apologize. You are simply unworthy to participate on my blog.

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I disagree. I don't know if you're aware of this, but ALL "organic" is is a label. There is plenty of food on the market that is just as nutritious that does not bear the "organic" label. Even the food out of your garden cannot be labelled "organic" unless it meets a strict certification process.

You do realize that you just completely contradicted yourself, right? If it is only a "Label", then obviously food out of my garden could be "Labeled" Organic right? But wait, you mention the certification process.. Ahhh, now we are on to something. See the problem is, I often find the poor toss up their arms and say "Blah! Organic is for loosers, food is food." because frankly, they just can't afford to buy Organic. People that do buy it will tell you without hesitation that it tastes far far better than non-organic and this isn't a placebo effect. Go ahead, buy some organic milk and compare it to the same % fat mass produced milk. I dare you.

Now to clarify, there are several "Grades" of Organic;

100% Organic - the most strict.
Organic - Strict, but with some exceptions.
Natural - Loose regulations, win some lose some with natural labeled stuff.

Speaking for my family, we eat 90% Organic when possible. Nobody in this household has had so much as a sniffle in the last 5 years and I attribute much of that to the type of food we eat and our diets. Even our beef is 100% Organic, Grass Fed, and purchased by the "Side" in bulk. Are we hippies? No, but I love cooking, and I don't appreciate toxins, poisons, hormones and pesticides in my food!

The problem we have now is when we are forced to eat non-organic (dinners out, dinner at friends, etc), we find the food tastes pretty revolting. Hamburgers on the grill at a friends taste like little patties of chemicals. Frankly, we're spoiled by eating the way people are supposed to eat, and everyone else is overly conditioned to tasting toxins apparently. It is pretty amazing to see how much of the "Life" is sapped out of most of the commercial food people are eating. Here is a nice chart showing how nutrious Grass-Fed Pasture Grazed Beef is compared to the feedlot trash you'll find in normal stores;

http://www.texasgrassfedbeef.com/index.htm
(scroll down a bit)

To the core point, Draginol has contempt for the poor, and admittedly, I do as well. I am sick and tired of watching the poor wallow in self pity waiting for a "Magical" cure for their problems. It is like the lotto, you see a poor bastard spending $50 a week on the lotto waiting for his dream ticket. What he doesn't realize is that even if he did win, he'd be too damn stupid to manage the money and would be back on skid-row within a few years or less. You CANNOT fix the poor by dumping a truck of cash onto their problems, they need to get off their arses and fix their own problems.

I have yet to meet a really poor person that didn't make a sucession of TERRIBLE decisions their entire life. Then they continue to make some of the most terrible decisions ever, regardless of any changes to their circumstances. So Draginol gives Joe-Poor a job making 50K a year, cool! Joe-Poor now has the money to smoke and drink twice as much and buy a brand new gas hog SUV to drive 2 hours to work! Joe-Poor is still Joe-Poor with a job! There is no change, he is still poor, now if he gets laid off because Draginol suddenly has to pay more taxes, then Joe-Poor just became Joe-Homeless because Joe didn't save a penny of his money.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

To the core point, Draginol has contempt for the poor, and admittedly, I do as well. I am sick and tired of watching the poor wallow in self pity waiting for a "Magical" cure for their problems. It is like the lotto, you see a poor bastard spending $50 a week on the lotto waiting for his dream ticket. What he doesn't realize is that even if he did win, he'd be too damn stupid to manage the money and would be back on skid-row within a few years or less. You CANNOT fix the poor by dumping a truck of cash onto their problems, they need to get off their arses and fix their own problems.

I have yet to meet a really poor person that didn't make a sucession of TERRIBLE decisions their entire life. Then they continue to make some of the most terrible decisions ever, regardless of any changes to their circumstances. So Draginol gives Joe-Poor a job making 50K a year, cool! Joe-Poor now has the money to smoke and drink twice as much and buy a brand new gas hog SUV to drive 2 hours to work! Joe-Poor is still Joe-Poor with a job! There is no change, he is still poor, now if he gets laid off because Draginol suddenly has to pay more taxes, then Joe-Poor just became Joe-Homeless because Joe didn't save a penny of his money.

Indeed. And it's not that I have contempt for the poor but rather I'm not sympathetic for the poor (in general). There are people who have really had some hard breaks or health issues (or mental illness) who legitimately need help.

But since the "Great Society" programs got started, there's been so much research into what makes someone poor that we have a pretty good idea. People who are poor overwhelmingly don't work -- as in, basically never get jobs. It's a very small % of the population but they make up a huge percentage of the "poor".

The overwhelming reasons those people don't work are due to either repeatedly making bad decisions (having multiple children out of wedlock with no way to support them, becoming a drug user, or not finishing high school for other reasons) or simply don't want to work because they're too unmotivated.

That is what makes those people fat too. They could pick up chicken to roast or beef to roast or beans and soups and broth and eat reasonably healthily for a couple bucks per day (I should know, I had to live very lean for years). Or they can go and pay the same amount for a bag of potato chips or hot pockets or something else that's just terrible for them. Junk food, fast food, soda are terrible for people health-wise and they're not cheap. Anyone who thinks McDonalds is "cheap" has clearly never shopped for real food that they prepare themselves.

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But wait, you mention the certification process.. Ahhh, now we are on to something.

No, the point is you have to PAY for certification. The food out of your garden could be completely organic, but unless you pay the racketeers you can't use the label. It's a racket, any way you slice it.

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The problem we have now is when we are forced to eat non-organic (dinners out, dinner at friends, etc), we find the food tastes pretty revolting. Hamburgers on the grill at a friends taste like little patties of chemicals. Frankly, we're spoiled by eating the way people are supposed to eat, and everyone else is overly conditioned to tasting toxins apparently. It is pretty amazing to see how much of the "Life" is sapped out of most of the commercial food people are eating. Here is a nice chart showing how nutrious Grass-Fed Pasture Grazed Beef is compared to the feedlot trash you'll find in normal stores. Sorry Yarby, but I ain't buying it.

And the price difference? Ground meat from "your" source is 4.38 @ pound. Ground meat from my store is $1.66 @ pound. "That" in itself is why most people do not eat organic foods. Organic bananas at the store are $1.50 per pound, regular bananas are .49 cents a pound. You can go on and on about this, but the price differences are just too steep. And out of the reach of "most" peoples wallet.

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I'm sorry for breaking all the rules of debating lol.

I was asking about whether or not there are countries you can live as a citizen and not pay income taxes. Not really debating it because I don't know. I'm sure there is someplace you can go, that has no income tax.

As for the point about your dollars vs mine. Though it may not be fair to compare, it is true if someone takes $500 from me, I'm broke for the week, if someone takes $500 from you are you broke for about an hour. Anything the government takes is a tax. Why does it become stealing because they take more from you?

You seem to think that if there were no government, that things would just run themselves, and this great country of ours would be able to just work without it. Thats the viewpoint I gather from what you write.

"As for your final comment, no need to apologize. You are simply unworthy to participate on my blog."

Ok.

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And the price difference? Ground meat from "your" source is 4.38 @ pound. Ground meat from my store is $1.66 @ pound. "That" in itself is why most people do not eat organic foods. Organic bananas at the store are $1.50 per pound, regular bananas are .49 cents a pound. You can go on and on about this, but the price differences are just too steep. And out of the reach of "most" peoples wallet.

Incorrect. My "Source" for Organic Grass Fed Beef is $2.49 a Pound, I purchase it by a full side of beef at a time and keep it in a chest freezer. Oh, and I haven't seen ground beef for $1.66 a pound for a decade, what are you buying Regurgitated ground beef? Secondly, no need to buy Organic Bananas, the thick skin on normal Bananas is enough to repell a vast majority of toxins. The biggest things to get organic are Meat, Chicken, Eggs, Milk, Cheese, Broccoli, Grapes, Raspberries, Peaches and a few others (google it). The rest you can pick and choose as desired.

Buying organic isn't always that much more costly for savy folks. You just have to know what to buy and where to buy it, and sometimes in the case of beef, buy in bulk.

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LOL.

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Incorrect. My "Source" for Organic Grass Fed Beef is $2.49 a Pound, I purchase it by a full side of beef at a time and keep it in a chest freezer. Oh, and I haven't seen ground beef for $1.66 a pound for a decade, what are you buying Regurgitated ground beef? Secondly, no need to buy Organic Bananas, the thick skin on normal Bananas is enough to repell a vast majority of toxins. The biggest things to get organic are Meat, Chicken, Eggs, Milk, Cheese, Broccoli, Grapes, Raspberries, Peaches and a few others (google it). The rest you can pick and choose as desired.

Buying organic isn't always that much more costly for savy folks. You just have to know what to buy and where to buy it, and sometimes in the case of beef, buy in bulk.

And just "who" do think has the money just lying around to buy half a beef"? Most sides of beef weigh about 500 to 700 pounds. By your figures that comes out at $1245 to $1745 per side. And as to your last...buying in bulk is nice. But then you have to have a way to preserve the excess. Not everyone has access to a freezer or the ability/knowledge/materials required to can their excess. So for the most part buying in "large" lots is out of the question for us common folk. I was just using bananas as an "example". There are plenty of others the same way. Here's one and the price "never" goes down. Organic tomatoes are 4.99 @ pound at "every" store in my area ( I have 4 different companies to choose from). Regular tomatoes run between 1.99 to 3.99 a pound, depending on the time of year and the type of tomato.

And your "when and where to buy" comment.....I've been doing the "entire" grocery shopping for the best part of 35 years (since I usually end up being the chef/cook & bottle washer). And I can tell you for a fact that buying "organic" is "always" more pricey and usually not worth the extra money required. I have had organic food prepared for me by some very fine chefs/cooks and have yet to find something that tastes so good that it tells me, to buy organic and not the regular brand. Personally, I'm happy for you that you can afford to spend all the extra money. Most of us can't.

Food snobs are as stupid as bottled water snobs.

Right on LW! I don't buy bottled water anymore except when I run low on the plastic bottles. I have found that "ordinary" tap water if frozen solid and left to thaw and then chilled, tastes just as good as any bottled water you can buy. I try to keep 24 bottles in my icebox. 8 have presweetened ice tea in them. The rest are just thawed water. Every once in a while a bottle goes bad either from splitting or getting really nasty from the tea. Then I buy another 6 pack and save the bottles.

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Has anyone ever told you, Miller, that your use of quotation marks for emphasis is one of the most annoying methods in the world to highlight your points?

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Has anyone ever told you, Miller, that your use of quotation marks for emphasis is one of the most annoying methods in the world to highlight your points?

You got a better way lets hear it. If not and you don't like it, then that's tough! Go away and don't bother reading my stuff.

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You could also distill your own water for pennies a gallon, and if that's not pure enough, you could charcoal filter it, also for pennies a gallon. (What do you think happens in those Brita pitchers? It's nothing but charcoal, babee, dirt cheap charcoal.)

I'm sure you know how to make a still....(grins)

But that would be against the law...because you and I "both" know that water would not be the only thing run through the still.

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You got a better way lets hear it. If not and you don't like it, then that's tough! Go away and don't bother reading my stuff.

Bold, italic, or CAPITALS are all more appealing and less noisy . . .

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Bold, italic, or CAPITALS are all more appealing and less noisy .

Just an fyi....Caps are considered shouting and rude. And the length of time you've been on JU, you should know that.

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An analogy even a socialist could understand

An analogy even a socialist could understand

The story of the garden