Who Should Decide How Much You Make? Response from the Black

This will be my only response on this topic:

1) Your reading comprehension abilities are awful. I mean, holy cow they're just awful.  I didn't claim to run the world. I said people like me run the world. That is, a collective of people with attitudes similar to mine run the world while people like you and attitudes like yours do nothing but complain because you're powerless because you think people are powerless. I'll get to that more in a second.

2) I have no opinion whether your friend deserves more or less. But you seem to assume that your friend is powerless to do anything about his situation.  This is what I mean by why people like you have no power to do anything but complain loudly. Your friend could go somewhere else where the employers recognize good employees and reward them thus making that company more economically competitive. 

Where I work, we treat people very well. Our turn-over is extremely low. As a result, we are able to do things that take other companies vastly more people to do. Treating people well is good business.

3) I don't deny people anything. People deny themselves. People like you and your friend think they are powerless and thus become powerless. So you rail on the government to come save you. The dumbass working at minimum wage is too weak, lazy, unskilled, or stupid to find a higher paying job so he turns over his adult responsibility to the government which is always happy to have more power.

4) I believe in a free people. If our representative government chooses to raise taxes or raise the minimum wage I will abide by the law even if I disagree with it.  I am, like you, free to disagree with it.  But at the end of the day, the government has no power over me. I can choose not to produce.

I could, right now, easily retire and never make another thing and live off my investments (which are barely taxed incidentally -- unlike my labor income). But it's people like me, whether you find it arrogant or not, that are creating the jobs. Not the government. Not your friend.  The government has the power to make it unprofitable for people like me to create jobs and create wealth for society.

5) The powerless are always powerless no matter what. The people who think other people are just "lucky" or see themselves on the tides of fate can't be helped because ultimately, no one is going to advocate their lot better than themselves. 

You feel pity for your friend who doesn't get a raise despite being a good worker. Why does he deserve pity? Is he forced to work there? Is he a slave? I recall slavery being abolished.  But if you had your way, you'd just let the government assume the power rather than create incentives for people to empower themselves.

At the end of the day, I believe in power to the people where people are the individuals of the United States. The government is NOT the people.

I would not call burger flippers "hard working" deference. I have always been a hard worker, and, despite being a "hippie", I've always made well over minimum with the exception of an EXTREMELY short span of time. I resent my hard work being usurped by a bunch of lazy welfare bums who feel they're OWED a living.

Just a couple of days ago, I mentioned a young man who has never worked a real job more than two weeks of his life (he does work study, but the other work study student and I do all the work, this guy sits around and plays Second Life all day). He came in on the verge of tears because he didn't get the $1500 back that he thought he would get so that he could buy his second brand new laptop in six months time. He owns every gaming system ever made except for the PS3, and an extensive collectio of anime...yet if you ask them, they're dirt poor. Their house is on the verge of falling down because nobody in that house works a real job, NOT because of "the man" keeping them down. I absolutely resent the implication that they are OWED a standard of living equal to mine when I'm putting in 80 hour weeks.

"Federal Reserve notes are a receipt for bartering goods and services, printed by the Federal Reserve, a private company, for the United States government. Every bit of American currency is property owned by the United States. One might think of currency in one's possession as 'theirs' but it can be taken away at any time by the entity that actually own it - the U.S. . I don't make the rules nor do I support them, I'm just stating the obvious as you seem to have forgotten."

So, essentially, you believe that all of our income belongs to the government. They loan us money to live in exchange for being good citizens. Nice. This one will be great reference material, I appreciate that. You shouldn't really blog angry.

'Not a socialist, an American who thinks his hardworking pal deserves a bit more then what is offered."

You're either a socialist or a vindictive liar. You say above that the product of our labor does not belong to us, it is just granted us by society. You can hang that on the currency thing, but in reality the government has laws referencing when they can and can't take your money away. Laws that we make.

That's the problem with socialists. They often forget that WE, the people being screwed, are the government. So when WE, the people being screwed, decide that the government can't do something, we can see to that. People like Deference would like to believe that the government is like some grandfatherly overseer.

shovel, gimme some of that popcorn, dammit

(eyes suspiciously) Or...are you saving it to feed the SQUIRRELS?!?

NO!   

One might think of currency in one's possession as 'theirs' but it can be taken away at any time by the entity that actually own it - the U.S. .

They could take away our notes, but then they'd have to give us back our gold nuggets.

~Zoo

It never comes to that, because "they" equals "us". As much as the government seems to be its own entity, once every few years they have to answer for their actions. They can only do what we allow them to do. That's why instead of the authoritarian stuff pushed by Socialists they have to take a dishonest, backhanded tack when they want to strip us of our goods and resources.

Deference, to be honest this is one of the least informed and thought through articles I've read in a while. Perhaps you should re-read what you've written here.

Draginol answers:



As a businessman/game developper, I consider Draginol to be an effective genius. He works hard, and the results are there. I am proud of buying what he sells, and if I have the opportunity of doing business with him one day, I would be proud doing so.

As a political critics, I think he is an utterly moron, and I could not stand being in the same manifestation he would be. I would be 100% sure there is something fishy about my presence there.

I know he think the same of me (about the 2nd point. I haven't had the luck of proving myself on the 1st), but I don't really hate him for it. The only place I would insult him is on this forum, and ABOUT this forum.

So if someone has to make criticism against Mr Frogboy, leave his gaming business out of it!

Since I'm not emperor, I just look at politics as something to debate and evoke thought.  Just becaue I disagree with your point of view or Deferences and may even be mean about it, it doesn' tmean for a second that I dislike you.

A lot of my friends have political views that are totally the opposite of mine and when we debate, we sometimes play pretty rough. The problem with written communication is that expressions are lost. 

The most I would say is that if you were running for public office I wouldn't vote for you or Defence. But it doesn't mean I wouldn't hang out with you if we knew each other in real life. 

I think if you look into it, whip, you'll find that the government prints money, and the government owns the gold that backs up the money. The federal reserve is a Semi-private agent that manages the amount of money we print and serves as a manager and depository. It isn't theirs, they were just created BY the government to have a banking system that was reliable.

It's the SEMI part that actually defeats Deferences claims, because as a moderately independent entity it keeps the government free from Chavez-like supremacy, and keeps the markets as free as we can. At least that is my understanding of the system.

Ah, I can once again actually access JU. I don't think I'll continue posting here as the reply I tried to post last night at almost 2:00 a.m. seems stale. Here it is, however, unchanged. I'm going to continue Agenda and Malice someplace less wonky who doesn't have a highly verbal owner at it's helm. Though I'll keep an eye on JU whenever it actually shows up in my browser - I won't be posting here. Enjoy! And look for the new blog site Even More Agenda and Malice.

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Original reply:

Please don't limit your responsivity when you are providing honest, thoughtful and reasoned material. I honestly thought I would simply be kicked from JU the moment you read my rebuttal, which may still happen, but as you know, I would have simply blogged elsewhere - out of reach, still attacking whatever JU article that agitated me.

"If you strike me down now Vader, I will become more powerful then you can imagine."

Whatt'a sportsman - no sarcasm implied. Either I've struck a chord or you just feel the need to set the record straight, maybe the truth is neither the former or the latter. Fine. I'll set the Deference flippancy meter to 'nihl'.

I don't assume that most people are powerless. It has been my experience that people do have varying degrees of power available to them that empower them in specific sociopolitical and / or economic environments. There are some, however that are without power. The severely mentally handicapped, the hopeless drug addict, the Schiavo vegetable, the jailed, even, those serving in our various military branches (I was there). I find it very difficult to envision a realit wherein these individuals can somehow summon the strength to shape the world around them and make a niche to better themselves. To compare yourself, Brad, to someone like John - a guy who didn't win the gene lottery and who had no available innovation to write his own ticket is not just or appropriate. Something about apples and oranges.

John is an example of what is occuring in America, that no matter how much good attitude (read: work ethic) one brings to the table, his altitude will never be found soaring. His aptitude and thus, his lack of credentiels, is his failing. The standard of living in Jefferson City, Missouri is nearly smack dab at $7.00 (seven dollars) hourly, the housing market here has remained very stable and emmigration to the area has not spiked to such a point that local business have adopted and acquired to the stagnation of wages - though the expectation of standards of living has risen. Public bussing is available but it is still required that one own a car for reason of employment availability, cellular phones have become a hiring requisite for reason of immediate work availibility, owning a computer with internet access has become a standard for employees to receive work-related notices, personal insurance is a huge must simply to be present at most places of employment today (specifically the non-outsourced manufacturing jobs within J.C). When one adds these additional costs to housing and food, it becomes abundantly clear that blue-collar (and now many white collar jobs due to outsourcing via 'free trade' agreements such as NAFTA) will only find themselves with no recourse but debt - and that is another penalty against gainful employment today. John could not be a 'lead cashier' and 'customer service representative' if he had a credit score below the national average of 650. At seven bucks an hour, he must be very savvy. John could be stupid, but he has lived in Jefferson City all his life, he has an eight year old daughter and bills that prohibit him from moving or taking the chance for a higher paying job that doesn't exist in Jefferson City - he's forty and at the Autumn of his life, it would be highly implausible that he suddenly acquire a new skill set (via schooling) or 'find a new job' that paid him as more money - particularly considering how much he's invested in the current system he's ground in.

This brings up a problem I have with today's social darwinism. I always attack those that wear religion on their sleeve, but I adhere to many Christian principles - one of the vague fuzzy ones being that one should enable and support those that struggle. We'll never eliminate 'faith babies' from our midst - ever. And sometimes people are borne with limitations that do not aide them in contemporary society. That does not mean we should caste them aside for the hope that we will eventually eliminate them from our job market and eventual personal gain. It is partly the responsibility of those of us who are more able to support the less able - which is a puritannical by-product passed down from those that founded this country and nurtured it through it's infancy. Those that purposely shirk their duty should not be rewarded, but people such as John, should be enabled via such tools as new minimum wage legislation. Yes these people are a drag on our economy, but they are our people, it is our sacrosanct right and privilege to care for those in our community who our family members and selves will come into contact with on daily occassion. It is a good and righteous thing to see these people as happy and as well adjusted as possible.

John doesnt know, but soon, the District Manager will enact orders from higher up - they will be cutting most cashiers from the Eastland Gerbes store in favor of more self-service touch-screen checkout stations. John's job will soon be monitoring these stations and providing 'customer service'. What he may not realize, if he knew, is that the 17 year old girl not yet graduated from High School is as equally able to perform that job, and could be his replacement - because he simply earns 'too much' already in the eyes of management. Why? Increased revenues. So he may someday become an unemployed 50 year old with no dignity, no income, and dependency upon - you guessed it - the state. Which means he is owned by the tyrranical government, the men with guns whom you claim are not consistant of 'the people', and their whim.

I had brunch with Fey, the VP of operations of the three Scholastic Inc. facilities located in Jefferson City a few weekends ago. Fey recalled an instance where, at a birthday meeting with employees a gentleman stood up and ranted about pay and the revolving door of employement that is de rigeur at Scholastic. The gentleman wanted to know if pay would be ever be increased, and if Scholastic would consider stopping hiring so many virtual scabs that were constantly hired and fired - keeping the payout of benefits to a minimum and senior employees on their guard. Fey lamented the fact that employees seemingly point this out every month at the 'birthday meetings', but was quick to remind me that there simply wasn't any money within the budget but to continue the practice. I asked her if the distributor had seen a loss, she replied, "No", but to keep profit margins at projection, there was no other choice; with 'corporate' breathing down her neck from New York.

Brad, apparently you understand the value of making certain your employees are well - kept. Congratulations. I take your word at it, I will not research Stardock and it's operations or address you on the subject because, despite my sometimes unseeming conduct here at JU, I understand that it is not appropriate. My Father was a very successful commercial General Contractor, and to add comment on his way of conducting business or treatment of his employees (which I certainly took issue with), he took such word as a violation of his very personal relationship with a business he created out of thin air. Perhaps Stardock is a smart contrast to today's stark business practices, but the truth is that such places as Scholastic, Gerbes, and even our nearby local Pizza Hut chain regularly abuse it's employees for the sake of profitability. Profit that grows leaps and bounds each fiscal year - yet the employees simply suffer more and more. How does it hurt Bob if Jim has a private jet? Maybe that private jet came at the expense of Bob. Working longer harder, and at greater risk, but not seeing any of the added return. Do you understand what I'm driving at?

I'm not a tax and spend guy, I'm not a socialist, I'm not a Democrat, I simply feel like we're sliding down this slope to maltreatement of the lowest class - to the highest degree - of the majority of people around us. I don't think that where we're headed is going to be profitable or enjoyable in the end. I must disagree with your stance on the issue of minimum wage, and John will be happy to bag your groceries if you should ever make it down to the Eastland Jefferson City Gerbes, then you might realize how much he and others like him deserve a quarter more for performance and maintenence of duty - even if it comes at the wishful gun of the people working within our government - at the petition of the people that should govern the reigns of America.

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Did I hear somebody say... Pizza?   

Oh, my GOD! I'm 36...apparently the "autumn of my life" is fast approaching. According to this statement right here, I should abandon schooling, quit my job as a support technician, give up and go to work for WalMart. How stupid am I for not realizing this?

Ok, THERE is a statement where you and I agree, Deference. But I DON'T agree John is hopeless. I know MANY people who have retrained past age forty, and I happen to know there's a boatload of money available to pay for it.

In your summation of this story, though, you brought up a very interesting point, one that has gotten me for a long time. It is highly possible from the story you told that John COULD be helped if he could be relocated to an area where a job matching his skill set and paying more for the area could be found. But there is no money to relocate John and his family. I'm hoping that charities to the poor begin to realize this and work towards helping provide relocation expenses, because simply by helping this man move, it's possible his standard of living could be increased substantially.

As for the "cell phone, car, internet" requirements, you're right about many areas (can't say for sure for Jefferson City) on all three, but a cell phone can be had for twenty bucks plus minutes, and Internet access can be obtained at the library (the car's a little trickier, I'll grant you). Even if he needed access at home, I can tell you for certain that you can find used systems for under $100 that are still adequate for basic emailing/websurfing purposes, and dialup, while not preferable, is certainly cheap.

In my opinion, a better approach to our "broad net" treatment of poverty would be to evaluate situations like John's and decide how best to help him help himself.

...and hafta wear that ridiculous blue smock all the time too. That's a deal breaker right there for sure.

That was me but it was a couple of days ago and a couple blogs over.

So I wake up one fine day and find myself working on a farm/ranch, twenty-seven years old, the father of a two year old, and the bearer of only a high school diploma and incredibly stinking POOR.
Gotta get outta this.
So I start going to night school. Tedious! Slooooow going! Work all day (farm and ranch work –try it sometime if ya think it’s easy) school at night. I finally finally finally graduate with a lowly Associate’s Degree. Eventually after lots of false starts and setbacks (and the birth of another kid) get me a city job (I'm 33 now) working in a jail while my poor friends who still work on farms dis me for "bailing out."

I work midnight shifts, fight drunks, get various and sundry bodily fluids thrown on me, cursed, assaulted, and…and… I hang in there. I study what’s going on and listen to wise council.
I rise through the ranks.
Today I'm the administrator. I make forty thousand dollars a year (real good money for my neck of the woods, education, smarts, etc.) get three weeks of vacation, medical/dental insurance, I have zero debts. I’m also VERY frugal -I have a paid for home and two paid for cars and a Harley, a son in college (who is paying his OWN way thanks to HIS working all through high school sacking groceries and saving/investing EVERY penny). And my poor friends remain on the farm and are still whining and waiting for the government to solve all their problems.

So it can be done. If a man of my limited intelligence can succeed (at least it feels like I’ve succeeded compared to from where I’ve come from) than anyone can. The trick is to never give up and keep going. It’s those small steps that’ll get you there.

This article is shameful, so I'm gonna start my post with Draginol instead of the author.



Couldn't have put it better myself. Even I noticed you said "And this is why people like me run the world" which did not mean you, only you and no one else but you. Everyone has the power to change their lifestyle. The only people incapable of doing so are those who don't believe they can. Using handicap people as an excuse of not being able to do anything is wrong cause there are many handicap people out there who have done things most people thought they could not do. Freedom is still there if we all look hard enough. People have forgotten that the Gov't does not control us, it is we who control the Gov't.

I agree with not liking the idea of having to work to pay the way for those who work less than I do because in their minds they can't do more. I have been struggling for many years now, but I don't give up the hope that I will eventually get out of the hole and enjoy the finer things in life. Because I believe I can do more that what I am doing now, my only problem is that I could use some guidance. But I go on everyday, working 14 hours a day for $10 and $11 an hour. But I will not stop there. Soon I will find my chance to move up and earn more while showing how good I am at what I do.






If they actually worked hard I would actually get my food fast (hence the name fast food) and I would get much better service than I do in 85% of the fast food places I eat. I should know, I worked in a KFC for 2 years. I was the best cook the place had ever had, I was the only Supervisor that cooked on Fridays and/or Saturdays cause no one could handle those days like I could. With hardly any left overs at the end of the day and no waiting by the customers for food that ran out.





Share the wealth buddy. Most of us here have that same expression plus this one:

True. People don't appreciate hard work when they see it. That's why I often end up with bad service wherever I go