I do...everyday.

Good for you I guess...since I have no idea what it is you actually do. As long as your not out imposing your religion on others or killing them for not wanting it imposed on them and calling them infidels...good for you.

You have no idea what you are speaking about.

Uh...yes I do. It was a statement...not a debate or a question. I'm speaking from personal experience and observation...no TV involved in any way, shape, or form, and I certainly DO NOT listen to anything my government has to say. I judge people by "their" actions...not by what other people say.

I watch "religious" people everyday help their fellow man. I see my local church help others in every possible way. Doing things many would never consider doing.

I never said people didn't help each other...and thats generally human nature...has nothing to do with religion. As far as churches helping people in "every possible way" I kinda doubt that. They will help in every way that will keep them tax exempt...which as far as I'm concerned is wrong. They should be paying taxes just like everyone else since they are constantly sticking their nose in politics and injecting the religion into it as well. And you will always have a select few that will go the extra mile in helping others...which again is human nature and has nothing to do with religion. I in no way subscribe to any religion, but I would give you the shirt off my back if it was going to help you...and I don't care what religion you subscribe to....unless of course you plan on selling my shirt to fund the killing of others for some wacky belief that you are some kind of chosen one or you condone the actions of terrorists in any way...which also includes remaining silent. Then we part ways.

Just because people with a microphone and a religious stance stand up and smear my faith or the faith of others doesn't negate the work my fellow "faithful" friends do everyday.

If I subscribed to a religion...and you stood up and claimed to be a part of my church or belief while killing people...trust me...I would come down on you hard...and make sure you changed religions...and I would vigorously denounce you as part of my religion. Unless the general belief within that religion turned out to be the same as yours...then I'd find another religion. I want nothing to do with anyone that has the nerve to assume their belief gives them the right to refer to others as infidels or kill them for believing in something other than you. That is just lunacy.

You've simply bought what the media sold you. Hate! Step out of the TV and look around. There are people of faith all around you that would help you. Even after you spit on them.

Not a chance in hell I would ever listen to anything the media has to say. These are people that consider Britney spears news....no thanks. I have always formed my own opinions and I am perfectly capable of thinking for myself without the media's biased reporting. TV is nothing more than entertainment...I don't take anything I see on the boob tube seriously. And I don't have a hateful bone in my body. If you are a muslim and you lived next door to me I would treat you no different than anyone else...if you needed help and asked for it I'd be there. As long as you kept your beliefs to yourself we'd get along just fine. But the minute I heard you commenting on how others are wrong for not believing in what you believe...your on your own. No spitting involved...you just no longer matter in the scheme of things.

I know...I'm one of them.

Them being what? Are you ashamed of what you believe that you can't actually say it?

Frankly, I think the Muslims (and pretty much every else) should stop taking themselves so damn seriously.

If you write off everyone that says you are wrong for not believing what they believe, well, I'm not sure how you get by in day to day life. I've had about 5 Muslims say that to me, in the course of a couple of discussions in college. The other million times weren't in any way related to Islam, up to and including the last couple of days.

Maybe you live in Utopia, but if I was 'done' with anyone that said I was wrong for not believing what they believe, I'd have to find a cave somewhere to live in.

There is a war coming. Western Civilization and Islamic Fundamentalism. I believe that firmly. I don't know when, or how, it will manifest itself, I don't know who all will actually be participating

the fact that the "moderate just folks" are pretty much letting the zealots co-opt and speak for their faith as a whole and aren't doing a whole lot to oppose that growing war chest. That's why I distrust.

I'm happy the Arabs are upset; it means they're nervous

The problem with your stand, Rightwinger is this: How is making the "Arabs", as you call them, nervous help us in the coming war that you describe? Those fanatics are not here, so assuming all the "Arabs" were expelled from this country (even though it is their country too)or jailed, is that going to help us or hurt us? your reaction to the belief that a "war is coming" is not very rational.

If you get shot at from a certain direction you don't just go blasting your machine gun in that direction, do you? you better see who is shooting first. if you don't, you may kill all the ones who didn't shoot and miss most of the actual shooters.

Ok ToeJo...before I begin let me clarify that I am presently of a calm demeanor...no hateful thoughts or feeling are present.

WebGizmos...I don't know what has ticked you off so bad about people of faith.You have spewed more anger about it than anyone I've run into in a long time.

Wow...sorry if I came off that way...wasn't intentional. See...thats one thing I hate about forums...you can't always really tell the mindset of the person who's text your reading.
ToeJo...Trust me when I say I am not in any way, shape, or form an angry person...If I was any more laid back I'd never get out of bed...lol So if I came off that way...sorry...didn't really mean to. I just have my definite opinions about religions...organized or otherwise.

My actions are not intent on proving you wrong or bad or misguided. I respect your decision not to subscribe to any faith.

No problem there! ; )

If I were to sit down with you and have a cold beer I would never try to get you to "convert."

Sounds fine to me!

As a Christian leader in my church and in my home, I know enough to not try to "convince" someone who has no interest in anything of faith. You can't force faith on anyone. You can force religion on them, but I am not someone who subscribes to "religion." Religion is rules.

Ok...here's where the confusion starts. You call yourself a "Christian" leader...but you don't subscribe to a religion? And you can't force anything on anyone...well...maybe some...but not most. And as far my interests in faiths or religions...I see way to many things wrong with the ones I have been exposed to for me to be even the lightest bit interested in. They need to do some serious house cleaning before that would ever happen.

And I don't live my life because a book tells me what I can and cannot do. I live my life based on relationship. Relationship with people like you, with my family, with my church family, with my friends and with Christ.

Again confusing...You don't live your life according to a book...the bible I'm assuming...but yet you have a "relationship" with some church & christ? From what I've read in the bible...(yes, I have read it)...I think he'd have a problem with that. I live my life based on a respect of life...all life...I guess you could call me a spiritual person...but nothing to do with any religion.

And that is the problem with extremists. Of any type of extremists. They do what they do without relationship. For if they had relationship, they would not be able to kill so easily.

This "relationship" thing you keep referring to...what exactly is it? I don't need a relationship with anyone to keep from killing anyone...I do that pretty much on my own. My heart and my conscious tells me its wrong. And as long as you don't attempt to impose your beliefs on me or entertain killing me or anyone in my family based on your beliefs for not believing...no problem...do what you want...but if you do...then we have a big problem.

You seem to think that all faith is bad. And yes...many of the people involved make it bad.

I can't honestly say that "all" faiths are bad because there are so many of them...which in turn branch off into other faiths and so on...and so on. People just can't seem to agree on what they want to believe. But of the ones I have been exposed to...I'd want nothing to do with them...and so far...religions are batting zero. And if you have bad people within your faith making it look bad...you need to clean house...to not do so makes you look as though you condone they're actions and are then labeled as one of them.

Or they make mistakes. (Being a man of faith does not mean I will not make mistakes...even big ones.) But the fact is, a lot of it is good. And I see it everyday. I wish you could as well.

Everyone makes mistakes...fact of life...but when I see so-called men of faith taking advantage of people putting their trust in that faith...those are not mistakes. Lets see...the catholic church comes to mind here. Right & left I see pedophile priests taking advantage of "children"...and what happens to them? In most cases nothing! In fact in most cases they try to hide it under the rug and make excuses for why these people did this or pay someone off. Sorry Tojoe...but in this example the bad far outweighs the good from where I stand. I have a Zero tolerance on taking advantage of children.

Forgive me for my assumption that you came to your conclusions from the media.

No problem.

I simply see the media as a place to smear anything to make a buck. When in actuality...good things, really good things happen every day. But the media doesn't show it because sex violence and hate sell advertising.

Couldn't agree more with you there...the media is all about money...truth is the last consideration if ever.

I assumed that was how you came to your conclusions.

No problem...I'll get over it. : )

I truly wish you the best.

Same here! No worries!

But I'm done with this topic...no offense...I'm not angry or anything...but religious topics just give me a headache. Keep the faith!

See...thats one thing I hate about forums...you can't always really tell the mindset of the person who's text your reading.

I totally agree.

Ok...here's where the confusion starts. You call yourself a "Christian" leader...but you don't subscribe to a religion?

The religion I subsrcibe to is simply Christianity. Denominations are dividers. I have no interest in them. They are details that are used to divide people.

Again confusing...You don't live your life according to a book...the bible I'm assuming...but yet you have a "relationship" with some church & christ? From what I've read in the bible...(yes, I have read it)...I think he'd have a problem with that.

The bible doesn't say, follow these rules because they are written in this book. Rather, the bible say, God has given these rules, follow them. And they are written so you don't forget them. I'm not going to start quoting scripture here because that would be counter-productive, but again...it's not the book that I have faith in...it is Christ.

This "relationship" thing you keep referring to...what exactly is it?

It's the foundation of my faith. I know this sounds crazy to you...but I ask God everything. And He answers. He answers in many different ways. I have a relationship with Him as I would with a friend. And that is the basis of true Christianinty. Relationship with a living God...Christ. And that is why so many people fail....because they follow rules rather than seeking the truth. If you have truly read the bible then you should know...that is what the whole new testament is about. That is why Christ came and did what He did.

I don't need a relationship with anyone to keep from killing anyone...I do that pretty much on my own.

I wasn't refering to you...I was refering to extremists. It's simple...if you know someone personally, if you have taken the time to truly get to know them. Helped them through tough times. Allowed the to help you through tough times...then when some leader tells you to kill them, it's not quite as simple a decision.

Lets see...the catholic church comes to mind here. Right & left I see pedophile priests taking advantage of "children"...and what happens to them? In most cases nothing! In fact in most cases they try to hide it under the rug and make excuses for why these people did this or pay someone off. Sorry Tojoe...but in this example the bad far outweighs the good from where I stand. I have a Zero tolerance on taking advantage of children.

I totally agree. And I have no tolerence for them either. They should be locked up until judgement day. However, this doesn't negate the work that my friends of faith do. The work that I do. If you were to tell me that, then why bother going to Africa and provide medical attention to the people I did? Why bother putting in an irrigation system in a village in Africa that has been so hit by HIV it may be extinct in 5 years time? Why try to feed the hungry in Haiti? Why help my friend deal with his messed up marriage? Why try to pay rent for a person who I have never met, but simply calls the church phone asking for help so he isn't thrown out in the cold? I do these things because of my faith. Others do these things because of thier faith. Yet all you see is the bad that comes from people I have never met doing things I would never do.

I wasn't refering to you...I was refering to extremists. It's simple...if you know someone personally, if you have taken the time to truly get to know them. Helped them through tough times. Allowed the to help you through tough times...then when some leader tells you to kill them, it's not quite as simple a decision.

I figured that much...but still...your heart and conscious should tell you its wrong...period. To say anyone needs some relationship with anything other they're own heart and conscious...in my opinion means they need psychological help. There is no one on this or any other planet that could say anything to me that would allow me to kill anyone...period. I guess the thing is....I'm not a follower...I'm the captain of my own ship...I have no need for a leader.

Then why bother going to Africa and provide medical attention to the people I did? Why bother putting in an irrigation system in a village in Africa that has been so hit by HIV it may be extinct in 5 years time? Why try to feed the hungry in Haiti? Why help my friend deal with his messed up marriage? Why try to pay rent for a person who I have never met, but simply calls the church phone asking for help so he isn't thrown out in the cold? I do these things because of my faith.

Because...if you can...its the right thing to do...you don't need religion or any other relationship to know the right thing to do...but I guess some people do...I just don't happen to be one of them. Hell...If I had the means to help people as much as I would like I'd never have time for anything else until it was done.

Yet all you see is the bad that comes from people I have never met doing things I would never do.

Trust me ToeJo...I never spend one second actually looking for this stuff. And I only see it when it is shown to me.

Lest we forget that it is human nature to judge a group by the actions of it's minority. One bad apple spoils a bunch. It would be really nice to see some people arguing points and facts that weren't broadcast every night over network news.

Bx, try a different angle in this discussion. Pointing out the various conflicts that the United States (and allies) have been involved in doesnt really do much to persuade anyone. It's yet more propoganda. Anyone with a knowledge of middle eastern history can name off an equal number of attrocities visited upon it's own lands and others by the residents of that region throughout history. What's worse; genocide, or genocide? (rhetorical, and redundant)

I have yet to see any really compelling arguments in this post. Shame...

When you step that far beyond Bush, O'Reilly, Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, who do you find yourself standing out there with? Rightwinger!

And me.

An interesting, On-Topic, article. I wonder how many such articles, such organizations, slip past rightwinger while he is wondering if they are building bombs. A shame we address American Muslims, that are far more apt to write articles like that than build bombs, by insulting them over and over as if they are somehow not one of us. It's shameful.

Dr. Guy, WRONGO Osama has ordered and is therefore responsible for < 10,000 innocent civilians killed. Still a horror, but nowhere near as many as the 50,000-100,000+ GW has blown to bits in their beds. More still, it has taken Osama decades to kill a fraction of the people Bush has butchered in four years. Stop spewing the stupid inane talking points of your whacko leaders. IN a couple of words. PROVE IT. You cannot, because it is and always was a lie.

Depends on where you go to find it.

Here, Link">Link , it's estimated between 55,221 to 60,907 Iraqi casualties.

[link="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Iraq+war+casualties"]Link2

The thing is, we'll never know for sure how many were killed, it'll always be an estimation.

Peace, ~L

I wonder how many such articles, such organizations, slip past rightwinger while he is wondering if they are building bombs. A shame we address American Muslims, that are far more apt to write articles like that than build bombs, by insulting them over and over as if they are somehow not one of us. It's shameful.

---Baker

Thanks for bringing that to my attention, Baker....I agree with every word he said.

Now, if I had actually SAID that ALL Muslims were evil, this may have had more impact on my views.
I've never said that. YOU, Baker have said I said that...despite my repeated stating of the opposite. You ignore it because you, for some whacko reason, want to read hate and bigotry into it and paint me as a clueless nut and an anti- Muslim zealot.
Go back and re-read all of my responses, including those on the other thread you dissed. But this time, try REALLY READING THEM. Understand what I'm trying to say without injecting your own multiculturalist, PC crap.
Yes, I have said---many, many times---that I find the moderate, everyday 90% of Islam suspect because it does virtually nothing to oppose the 10% of the nutjobs. Strange how you ignore my stating of that fact, but when this guy says it, and how he understands why I'm suspicious, it's a huge deal. I say the same things, overall, but I'm a hater. He's a Muslim, though, so he can say it and get an attaboy from you. Geez.
Is it like the difference between a black guy saying "nigger" and a white guy saying it? Is that what it is? Multiculturalism......Diversity.

You're a lot farther out there than I'd thought, Baker.

And yes, I admit that much does "slip past" me....because I have a job. I work eight hours a day. Not much seems to get past you, though, does it?

I heard a great line today....I was telling a friend at work about the server error, and he asked what I was doing. I told him, and he said that "arguing on the internet is like the Special Olympics....nobody ever really wins, and everyone who does it is retarded." Priceless.

Such as:

"I won't backpeddle from my earlier position; I do think islam is a cancer....granted, my understanding of the faith itself is somewhat narrow, but Islam has brought chaos and death to pretty much all points of the compass, wherever it has cropped up. That's enough for me."

How many attacks in the US in the last 100 years that we've had mainstream, enabled Islam? How many of those were American Muslims without it being a coordinated attack by al Qaeda or someone else? How many?

So, frankly, the idea that Islam brings chaos and death "wherever it has cropped up" is ignorant and hateful, and I don't think for a moment that what you and Mr. Jasser are saying is the same thing. Not by a longshot.