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Pointing Out Threats = Fearmongering?

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Pointing Out Threats = Fearmongering?

Don't point to that danger! You are fearmongering!

from JoeUser Forums

     I wonder if sheepherders in Anatolia ever had to deal with being accused of fearmongering against wolves?

          Grey the Shepherd "Hey Bobby! That Wolf is getting real close to your sheep! Looks mighty hungry too!"

          Bobby the P.C. Shepherd : "Shut up Grey, you're just rascist against Wolves! Most Wolves don't kill sheep, they just live peacfully in the forest in harmony with nature! I've had enough of your fearmongering ways. Its not enough for you that Moderate Wolves live in peace, you wan them to condemn being a Wolf!"

          Grey : "Heck I'd just like to see the Wolves say that killing sheep is wrong and that the Wolves who do should be condemned."

          Bobby : "Racism! Fearmonger!"

          Grey : "Sigh..."

     I suppose linking to this article from The People.uk is also rascist fearmongering but here it is anyways (emphasis mine):

"A FRESH wave of British-born extremist Muslim clerics is whipping up hatred against their own country on the internet.

These men - who dream of seeing the black flag of Islam flying over 10 Downing Street - were filmed spouting vile messages of fanaticism and violence in sermons in mosques and community centres in Britain.

...

The anti-British or pro-terrorist rants are often mixed in with talks about legitimate Islamic topics.

...

A young cleric called ABU MUWAHID, who appears frequently in clips, lavishes praise on the 9/11 attackers in a talk about prayer.

He says the "fantastic, fabulous, magnificent - whatever word you prefer, whatever word suits you, but any word of praise - soldiers destroyed the two idols of today." (I prefer the words "dead" and "terrorist"- GW)

...

He brands Muslims who are not prepared to fight as hypocrites who will go to hell. "They have no intention to conquer...or to bring the black flag over 10 Downing Street," says Muwahid. (I told you Moderates that you are next on their list - GW)

...

"We do not like non-Muslims. We are required not to like them because they reject Allah and his messengers."

...

To cheers from his audience, he promises: "One day the black flag of Islam is going to be over 10 Downing Street, whether Tony Blair likes it or not."

 

     It is terrible of me to point things like this out put since the organization who spoke out for the Flying Imams (CAIR) can't seem to actually condemn terror organizations I don't feel too bad about it.

     Moderate Muslims : You don't have to denounce Islam, but denouncing terror and killing (even if the people killed are Jews) is a pretty basic requirement if you want anyone but the ACLU to take you seriously. Even Barbara Boxer gets that part.

    Additionally it seems that I am not supposed to point out stories regarding Muslims unless I am pointing out stories about people of other religions committing acts of terror as well. Please post any links you have of current news involving people of other religions: decrying the need to "raise the flag" of their religion over nations, establishing "states with a state", flying planes into buildings, bombing subways, or strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up buses and cafes.

     I already know the KKK does the first two and I condemn them roundly, wholeheartedly, and think them revolting criminals. Ditto for morons who blow up abortion clinics and shoot at physicians. Follow up with others and I will discuss them even though they have already been thoroughly ostracized from their respective community support networks in a very satisfying Hobbesian/Lockean action.

     Please refrain from anything more than a few years old. I must be missing the current string of terror attacks from Buddists, Confucians, Shintoists, Wiccans, and Christians (yes I have heard of the Crusades, keep it in the current century at least if not the last decade).

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23,041 views 54 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top
Better reread the rules.

how bout including the entire thought in the quote...i questioned his "poo-pooing" in advance of any mention of them. he doesn't want to discuss them because they deflate his argument.

and i also believe he said the last century or at least the past decade. clinics were bombed in 97 and 98, clearly in the past decade.
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top
ETA and the TT are ruthless terror gangs that rank right beside Al-Qaeda but have much less scope. The Mexico City bombings are also to be condemned even though as yet they don't know who exactly did it.

If I went back weeks and took time I'm sure I could find lots and lots of attacks around the world that weren't purpetrated by Muslims



So your case is that there islamic terror attacks are no more numerous than non-muslim ones? Really? Do you think that would bear any scrutiny?


Stupid rules, frankly


Nonetheless they are the rules. It is my blog too while we are at it.
Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top
I "pooh-poohed" clinic bombings? How about reading the article?

I already know the KKK does the first two and I condemn them roundly, wholeheartedly, and think them revolting criminals. Ditto for morons who blow up abortion clinics and shoot at physicians.


I guess that is "pooh-poohing" if you disagree with me then?

Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Do you think that would bear any scrutiny?"

I found three in a span of two weeks. You realize you could fill encyclopedias with the things the American news doesn't bother to report, right? I know people right now that aren't even aware that almost a million people died in Rwanda. You that confident in your to-the-minute knowledge of what goes on around the world?

You hear what you hear because, frankly, people like you are a focus group. Scared people watch the news, and the news feeds on scared people. You won't hear about the rest because they don't inspire you to tune in. Fearful biases have great commercial value. Just look at Bill O'Reilly's success.

Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top
19 guys with box cutters. And... they were all foreign nationals. Don't you find it odd that something that was so easily done NEEDED foreigners

excellent point. factis that we don't breed terrorists. while the occasional loon is bound to pop up every once in awhile, even the "haters" aren't buying the paradise & 72 virgin argument.

on the london and madrid bombings,,,notice they didn't blow themselves up. just the guys from the mid east are willin to do that. i think the people who orchestrated and carried out those attacks were looking fro clout, power and recognition amongst their terrorist buddies, and had no interest in meetin allah.
Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top
"while the occasional loon is bound to pop up every once in awhile, even the "haters" aren't buying the paradise & 72 virgin argument. "


Evidently Christians can put fertilizer bombs together on their own, but America Muslims couldn't figure out how to use boxcutters. They can't even really comprehend that Islam is hateful unless they go to these other nations or listen to grewar.

Granted, one MIGHT come to the conclusion that the real problem comes from these places they go to learn to wield the boxcutters... but no, it must be Islam, right? It boggles the mind...


Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top
I guess that is "pooh-poohing" if you disagree with me then?

what i disagree with is the acting as-if they don't count in this debate. just saying you condemn em but no one else can bring em up is silly. factis that those terrorist attacks are recent (within the last decade) and were carried out by people believing it was "for God." which is exactly what you are saying no one in this country does. your premise is false and can only be made "legit" by taking those very real terrorist attacks out of the mix. at least that's the way i read it.

i think you make some decent points in your article, but there are some holes as well...it overreaches and unfairly discounts very real things.

and again, what about the mafia, who uses the catholic church and has infiltrated our government at many levels? are theey not a terrorist organization that this country has coddled and harbored. how many neighborhoods actively defend mafia guys because of their "protection" and "generosity" and their commonality with their heritage and religion?
Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top
but America Muslims couldn't figure out how to use boxcutters.

or maybe they couldn't figure out how to use that ummmm ,,,that series of tubes,,,,ummmmm,,,what's it called? oh yeah,,,the internets to order their tickets online...lol
Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top
Keep trying. You might find one or two crazies, but so far you're bust. If Islam was the problem, you wouldn't NEED to have these ties overseas. They'd have their militias here just like wacko racist Christians do.


You said this in response to Dr. Guy's statement, which was in response to your:

Don't you find it odd that something that was so easily done NEEDED foreigners. We have millions of Muslims here. If Islam is what you claim it to be, you don't think you could have gotten a handful of people together in the DECADES before?


He was able to at least pick out a "handful of people," right? I think he addressed your statement fairly well.
Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top
"He was able to at least pick out a "handful of people," right? I think he addressed your statement fairly well."


Did he? I don't see any there that aren't tied directly to Afghanistan or other Middle Eastern terrorists. If Islam is what you guys say it is, where are the AMERICAN Islamic terrorists? Why don't we have any HOME GROWN ones? Why doesn't the religion breed them HERE?

Show me Islamic terrorists that haven't been connected to the Middle East of Afghanistan, please. If Islam is the problem, you don't NEED these ties. If Islam is the problem, you'd have hateful terroristic behavior everywhere there is Islam. There have been Muslims in American in large numbers for decades, having kids, going to mosque...

So, where are our Muslim terrorists? We have MILLIONS of Muslims in the US. Why haven't we seen any home grown terrorism if Islam is the problem? Use the rules above and find me American Muslim terrorists who've committed an attack in the same time period.
Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top

Did he? I don't see any there that aren't tied directly to Afghanistan or other Middle Eastern terrorists.

 

So theyonly qualify if they are Americans completely isolated from the rest of the Islamic world?

Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top
Not the Islamic world, but the Wahhabi and Lebanese terrorist traditions. If Islam is the problem, WHY is contact with thise organizations necessary? Why doesn't terrorism spring up alongside Islam, instead of being imported from these particular places?

If it is about Islam, you don't NEED Afghanistan, right? If Islam is to blame, and obviously we have had American-born Muslims for decades, we should be seeing our own organizations here in America. Why do Christians know how to make truck bombs, but Muslims have to go to Afghanistan?

Oddly, without direct contact with the Middle East, you don't have Islamic terrorism. Is it really Islam, then? Show me the spontaneous eruption of Islamic terrorism without DIRECT Palestinian/Lebanese/Wahhabi influence.

Reply #38 from JoeUser Forums Top

Stupid rules, frankly. Even with them you have the bombings in Mexico City recently. The ETA bombed Spain again last week. There was a bus bombing a couple of days ago in Sri Lanka by the Tamil Tigers.

his blog his rules.  Come on!  He set them, not I.  Besides, your post is not about terrorism.  But about domestic violence. Yea, we got murders.  last I checked, the NY gangs were not murdering muslims in Saudi Arabia.

Reply #39 from JoeUser Forums Top

Keep trying. You might find one or two crazies, but so far you're bust. If Islam was the problem, you wouldn't NEED to have these ties overseas. They'd have their militias here just like wacko racist Christians do.

Thank you!  You took the bait!  Ok, Muslims are .5% of the population and we have how many?

Muslims are 99% of the middle east and how many from that?

I love it when someone proves a point.  Set and Match.

Reply #40 from JoeUser Forums Top

and i also believe he said the last century or at least the past decade. clinics were bombed in 97 and 98, clearly in the past decade.

As I told Baker, he set the rules, not I.  Bitch at him for them.

Reply #41 from JoeUser Forums Top

Did he? I don't see any there that aren't tied directly to Afghanistan or other Middle Eastern terrorists. If Islam is what you guys say it is, where are the AMERICAN Islamic terrorists? Why don't we have any HOME GROWN ones? Why doesn't the religion breed them HERE?

That really is beneath you.  Tied to what?  Your restrictions?  No.  As was pointed out, we have .5% muslims, and so what percentage of that .5% is the ones (not all inclusive) to that .5% as to the Al qaeda to the 1.2 BILLION out there?

You asked, I supplied.  At least acknowledge it.  You have gone from defending all muslims (noble and true) to denying any are terrorists!  Geez baker!  get a grip!

Reply #42 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Thank you! You took the bait! Ok, Muslims are .5% of the population and we have how many?"


None. Zero. You couldn't even name one. Please name one if you can. Name an American Islamic terror organization or an American cell that isn't tied to the same old organizations in the Middle East. If it is Islam, and not deeper problems in the Middle East, why is the Middle East necessary?

We have lots of Muslims. Millions. Why don't we have OUR OWN terrorists? Why do they have to be recruited and trained and indoctrinated by the same old cast of characters? We have boxcutters, we have Muslims. Where's our bin Laden?

:"That really is beneath you. Tied to what? Your restrictions? No. As was pointed out, we have .5% muslims, and so what percentage of that .5% is the ones (not all inclusive) to that .5% as to the Al qaeda to the 1.2 BILLION out there?


What the hell does that even mean? It makes no sense.

"You asked, I supplied. At least acknowledge it."


You didn't supply any. Not one, and your attempt proved my point. You didn't show a single American Muslim terrorist whose hatred and ability was born here. Everyone you cited had training and indoctrination from the Middle East. If Islam were the problem, our Muslims wouldn't need indoctrination from the Middle East.
Reply #43 from JoeUser Forums Top
We've had Muslims in the US for centuries. We've had active Muslim organizations in the US for a hundred years. The Red Crescent was founded in Detroit in 1919. We've had terrorism in the US for ages, yet Muslim terrorism only sprang up along with the problems in the Middle East.

Be honest. Please. If Islam is the problem, why haven't Muslims been a problem here? Where is our bin Laden? Why is this problem imported, when we have mosques and the Koran here in abundance, along with millions of Muslims?

Because it isn't Islam.
Reply #44 from JoeUser Forums Top
Where is our bin Laden?


There is only one Bin Laden, but dozens of muslim countries. By your narrowcasting of the rules, you are basically saying that they only problem country in the world is Saudi Arabia.

You can define the problem down to the point it no longer exists (as you seem want to do), but that is not going to make people any less dead.
Reply #45 from JoeUser Forums Top
"You can define the problem down to the point it no longer exists (as you seem want to do), but that is not going to make people any less dead."


Nope. We've had tons of Muslims, mosques, lots of copies of the Koran over a hundred years. Yet, without DIRECT influence from either Lebanese or Wahhabist terrorist culture, we don't have terrorism. Period.

  • Your theory doesn't work, because we have had Islam in the mainstream in the US for over 100 years, and no terrorism until the usual cast of characters started up a few decades back.
  • Your theory doesn't work, because with our own material, our own weapons, our own boxcutters, American muslims do not attack without being involved with the same, usual cast of characters in the Middle East and Central Asia.
  • We have the Koran, we have Mosques, we have millions of Muslims, but oddly without influence from the usual terrorist groups WE DON'T HAVE ISLAMIC TERROR.


So, I think anyone with a FRIGGIN BRAIN would look at the situation and realize that what these terrorists have in common isn't really Islam, its a connection to these places and these groups. Period. If the problem were Islam, you'd have terror wherever there is Islam.

In reality, you only have terror where these groups have influence. Places where they don't, or where their hatefulness doesn't take hold, there aren't Islamic terrorists. So what they have in "common" isn't really Islam at all, it's the political and social problems of these places bleeding out into the rest of the world.

Saying Islam is the problem is like the racists who say that black people are just more apt to be criminals. They see a correlation between race and how many people commit crimes and they jump to the easy conclusion. Correlation isn't CAUSATION, though.

How does it feel to realize that RACISTS have more statistical evidence of their invalid points than you do of your point about Islam. At least they can really show a false positive with numbers. I've asked you to show me purely American muslim terrorists, and you can't.
Reply #46 from JoeUser Forums Top
So to address the blog title, pointing out threats is fine. Mischaracterizing threats just vilifies the wrong people, and hands valuable propaganda to the REAL terrorists to say that we aren't really at war with terrorism, but Islam as a whole. The last thing we need to do is give moderate, peaceful Muslims the idea they have something to fear from us.

All that does is make the pretests of the real hateful people in the Middle East seem more valid, and their cause seem more just. Without them, the Muslims here have no cause. Why give them one?

American Christians, on their own, without help or influence from anyone else's social and political problems, decided to blow up abortion clinics. Show me American Muslims deciding on their own, with no influence from Middle East politics, without Middle Eastern handlers, to blow anyone up.
Reply #47 from JoeUser Forums Top
Here's another point:

People don't look at what happened in Northern Ireland between Protestants and Catholics and say that the two religions are violent and a threat. Why? Because the problem can be traced directly to the social and political situation there, not the religion. We weren't blowing each other up here, right?

Yet, Muslims unconnected with Middle East problems haven't been killing people here, yet we just assume the cause of the violence is Islam, and not the problems in the Middle East. That shows our bias.

Catholic and protestant terrorists in Ireland claim to be working in the name of religion, and we know better. Muslim terrorists claim to be working in the name of religion, and we overlook the obvious and believe them. I wonder why...
Reply #48 from JoeUser Forums Top
{Baker: WE DONT HAVE ISLAMIC TERROR}

An interesting, worthy debate. BRITAIN DOES HAVE ISLAMIC TERROR and it is homegrown. Could any of you explain why this is? Is it because many UK Muslims have close ties with Pakistan? Would be interesting to hear some theories
Reply #49 from JoeUser Forums Top
"
An interesting, worthy debate. BRITAIN DOES HAVE ISLAMIC TERROR and it is homegrown."


It's my understanding that it is not homegrown. Just like the nut Jose Padilla here, your terrorists were recruited and indoctrinated by the same old cast of characters and their minions. My point is, why don't Muslims come to these conclusions ON THEIR OWN if the problem is Islam?

Wouldn't all you need be Islam, if Islam is the problem? Why do we always seem to need contact with the Middle East and terror's central asian strongholds?
Reply #50 from JoeUser Forums Top
Re: London bombing:

"Alleged accomplices

* Magdi Asdi el-Nashar: renter of a house where explosives were found; an Egyptian-born biochemistry lecturer who has disappeared
* Ejaz Fiaz (also named as Eliaz Fiaz): possible co-conspirator, in his early thirties, from Beeston, Leeds. Initially thought to have been the suicide bomber on the Piccadilly Line train.
* Unnamed co-conspirator: an Al Qaeda operative believed to be the bomb-maker and cell organizer, described as a Pakistani in his 30s, who entered Britain through a port some time in June 2005, and left the country on 6 July.
* Mustafa Setmariam Nasar: suspected planner also believed to have organized the 11 March 2004 Madrid bombings."


Same old cast of characters and their minions.