Paladin77

"I don't have a problem with this. This is why I support an all volunteer force." In 1968 that was not the case and the fact remains the Guard was the BEST way to avoid Vietnam which is what Bush did. Cheney was more direct, he used 5 deferments.


He got into the Guard with the help of his father's contacts. That is not in dispute. Mr. Barns has stated in public that he did get Bush into the Guard like other young men whose parents had pull. Bush had NO experience and his flight aptitude scores would have prevented him from receiving a Direct Commission without Daddy. He stepped ahead of 150 other men that did not have the same pull as GHWB.

His records PROVE he did not take a REQUIRED Physical and as a result was grounded. Changing units and aircraft had NOTHING to do with the requirements to take an annual Flight Physical. Bush disobeyed Air Force Regulations and most likely a Direct Order from his commanding officer to take the physical. It states that on the Grounding Order. His pay records show he did not attend drills ANYWARE for 5 months in 1972. His statements to Professor Tsurumi confirm the fact that it was Daddy that got little George into the Guard and out of the guard!

NOAA has documented the increase in Ocean temperatures and the melting of the ice caps has been documented by several agencies.

Bakerstreet

The choice to not follow the invasion plan, not to follow established doctrine or the advice of the Army CoS and send the 500,000 troops was Bush. When Bremer got to Iraq and saw that the troop levels were not enough to control the growing violence and he asked Bush for more troops. Bush DID NOT send them."


“I can't discuss this with someone that poses urban legend as fact. I suggest you look into what really happened and then try again.”

Sorry, Op Plan 1003, the recommendation of Gen. Shinseki, the request for more troops by Bremer are NOT "URBAN LEGENS" they are FACT. Even after Gen Franks was pressured to cut the force levels in OP Plan 1003 (the invasion of Iraq) the LOWEST TROOP LEVERS Gen. Franks developed was 360,000. Bush sent about 150,000! Every major military officer has said we did not have the required troop levels to establish and maintain control over the sectarian violence in Iraq.

Paladin77

As a Marine please do not tell me that members of our military have the choice as to which orders and regulations they obey. This is not gray area. It is BLACK and WHITE. Bush requested a change in units from Texas to Alabama. That request was refused.

The other issue that is very strange is that there is NO record of the mandatory Board when Bush was grounded. That is required and in the over 400 pages of the Bush military records there is northing about this Board. There is not even anything that documents the Board was ever convened as REQUIRED. HOW STRANGE. The Air Force spent a lot of money to train Bush as a Pilot. Bush failed to fly the required hours to maintain his flight qualification. It takes double the drills for a pilot then for non-pilot Guard Members. The final straw was his grounding for not taking a REQUIRED Annual Flight Physical. If ANY other member of the Air Guard had done what Lt. Bush did, they would have been punished!

Let's talk about the 800 lb gorilla that no one wants to bring up about the refusal of Lt. Bush to take his flight physical. WHY would any rational person risk the consequences of not following Air Force regulations and take the physical. It is not hard and if the timing was a problem it could have been rescheduled. At that time the Drug problem was very real and the military was conducting drug tests. Was there something that Lt. Bush was afraid would become known if he took that physical?

This is the ONLY rational answer most people have been able to come up with as to why Lt. Bush would risk the fallout from not taking his physical. Was he taking drugs that would have shown up? We Know Bush had a problem with Booze until about the age of 40. He had his driver’s license suspended two times.

Paladin77 and Bakerstreet

Cat got your tongs

NOAA has documented the increase in Ocean temperatures and the melting of the ice caps has been documented by several agencies.

This is true. The cause of the increases is what is in dispute. Nutjobs say it is man that is the cause. Serious minded people look at the facts and say that there is no proof one way or the other. Nutjobs say that just because there is no proof we should not take the chance because scientest say that if we wait ten years we will all die. The same crap they said about global cooling 30 years ago. It is junk science with very little science and a lot of political junk. I remember a NYT Sundy magazine with a picutre of NYC burried in snow three quarters the hight of the Empire State Building and we are all going to die; that was 1965. The problem is that the Nutjobs use only half the truth to prove their point. I strongly suggest you read my article cause your answer was destroyed in it.

The other issue that is very strange is that there is NO record of the mandatory Board when Bush was grounded. That is required and in the over 400 pages of the Bush military records there is northing about this Board. There is not even anything that documents the Board was ever convened as REQUIRED. HOW STRANGE.

I find strange that 400 pages of his official record are missing. Here is why I find it strange. Through the freedom of information act I received a copy of my military records. Including my medical records they totaled 35 pages covering 13 years of service. I know that 5 pages were withheld for specific reasons, plus my fitness reports which are not released except for extremely special situations another ten pages but that brings the total to 45 pages. Given flight qualification takes a bit more paper work I still can’t see how such a short career could come up with 400 pages let alone 400 missing pages. Maybe you can explain it to me. General Frank Peterson, aviator that served in Korea and Vietnam and retired in the 80’s had a record book that was almost an inch thick after 30 years of service. Add to that his medical records which I did not see but will assume is half as thick, ok make it the exact same size of an inch. That comes to about 200 pages covering 30 years of distinguished flight service in two wars yet you claim that there are 400 missing pages of an officer who served less than ten years and was not stationed outside CONUS. Using your figures an officer who served 30 years should have a record book with 1,200 pages in it. This is what I find hard to believe.

As a Marine please do not tell me that members of our military have the choice as to which orders and regulations they obey. This is not gray area. It is BLACK and WHITE. Bush requested a change in units from Texas to Alabama. That request was refused

Yes, I do believe that one may pick and choose which orders, rules and regulations can follow or obey. You have the choice to rob a bank or kill anyone you please. No one is stopping you from doing it. The laws are only enforced when you break those laws. If Mr. Bush chooses to refuse orders then he would be put on Hack or brought up on charges. You yourself say that there is no record of this happening so based on your words and your sourses he did not break the rules, or regulatons or disobey the officer he reported to. He was grounded as the rules demand for not haveing a current physical on file.

Yes, I do believe that one may pick and choose which orders, rules and regulations can follow or obey. You have the choice to rob a bank or kill anyone you please. No one is stopping you from doing it. The laws are only enforced when you break those laws. If Mr. Bush chooses to refuse orders then he would be put on Hack or brought up on charges. You yourself say that there is no record of this happening so based on your words and your souses he did not break the rules, or regulations or disobey the officer he reported to. He was grounded as the rules demand for not having a current physical on file.

I have been saying the same thing since I started here. The col has yet to answer that one. Care to try now col? If you do "not" have evidence of him being put on hack or being court marshalled then I would guess your theory is just junk.

Paladin77

"Yes, I do believe that one may pick and choose which orders, rules and regulations can follow or obey" Here are the problems with that.

First, yes what you say is possible. However, the impact on the effectiveness of a military organization is devastating. Following orders (A regulation is the same as an order) is ESSENTIAL.

Second, if as you suggest a member of the military chooses to disobey or ignore regulations and orders, so long as they are lawful, they MUST be held accountable. What happened with Lt. Bush is that he chooses to disobey several regulations (Drill Attendance, Maintain Flight qualification and taking his annual Flight Physical) and was not held accountable. He was REWARDED with an EARLY HONORABLE discharge as if he met his responsibilities. ANY other OFFICER who did what Lt. Bush did would have been disciplined as regulations prescribe for failing to obey the regulations.

I did not say that 400 pages of his military record were MISSING. That is what was released. What I am saying is the record of the Board to review his grounding is MISSING. The Order Grounding him was released and it states the reason he was grounded was because he failed to take the required physical. If GWB had not been given an Honorable Discharge he did not deserve, he would never have been elected Governor or President.

The other issue is WHY would GWB have refused to do something that is as routine as an annual physical and RISK creating a problem? Most likely because he was using Drugs!

Drmiler

There is PROOF he did not take the REQUIRED Physical and that he did not attend drills for a period of 5 months in 1972. He was to have been the subjected to the BOARD OF IQUIRARY after being grounded. All that did not take place even though there is proof Bush disobeyed Air Force Regulations. That could only happen because some high ranking officers did not deal with Bush they way Regulations required and the way any other officer would have been dealt with under the same situation!

"If Mr. Bush chooses to refuse orders then he would be put on Hack or brought up on charges. You yourself say that there is no record of this happening so based on your words and your souses he did not break the rules, or regulations or disobey the officer he reported to. He was grounded as the rules demand for not having a current physical on file."

There is no "IF” His own military records confirm Bush did not obey regulations. What is missing is the punishment for Bush disobeying those regulations. The fact he was not punished does not prove he did not disobey. To the contrary, Bush did disobey and not only was not disciplined but was REWARDED with an Honorable Discharge HE DID NOT EARN!I do not know what discipline the Board would have given Bush but I know it would not have been an Honorable Discharge. For failing to attend drills, the member was to be placed on Active Duty and subject to assignment as needed by the Air Force. That too was not done!

Here are some other facts about the Bush Air National Guard Service:

Bush claims he MET is obligations to the Guard:

Bush was trained as a pilot and the Government spent a lot of money to train
him to fly.

He was obligated to maintain enough flight hours to maintain qualification.
Pilots must drill TWO weekends per month in order to be able to meet the
MINIMUM Flying Hours. Some have claimed Bush attended drills to make up for
some missed drills had a GOOD Retirement Year in 1972-73. The problem is
pilots must attend two times the number than for a Good Retirement Year to meet the
flying hour’s requirement. Bush did not meet that requirement. That was confirmed by
by the officer in charge of personnel for the Air Guard during the time Bush was
in the Air Guard.

There was a mandatory test exercise that included Lt. Bush’s unit. It was to
Defend the U.S. It took place at the time Bush was not regularly attending Drills.
As a member of that unit, he was obligated to be part of the exercise. He failed to
Participate.

The secretary to Bush’s CO said that Bush was given a Written Order to complete his
Flight physical. She knows this because she typed that letter that Bush was given by
CO. She did say that the actual letter CBS used was not the letter she typed but that
it was exactly like the one she typed.


Therefore, since Bush failed to maintain his flight qualification because he did not attend the required drills and because he failed to take his physical, he DID NOT fulfill his commitments to the Air Guard and for that was rewarded with an Early Honorable Discharge.

If a pilot today did the same things as Bush in 1972-73, what do you think would be the results? I will BET it would not be an Early Honorable Discharge.

Drmiler There is PROOF he did not take the REQUIRED Physical and that he did not attend drills for a period of 5 months in 1972. He was to have been the subjected to the BOARD OF IQUIRARY after being grounded. All that did not take place even though there is proof Bush disobeyed Air Force Regulations. That could only happen because some high ranking officers did not deal with Bush they way Regulations required and the way any other officer would have been dealt with under the same situation!

But there is NO proof whatsoever that he was EVER put in hack OR court marshalled OR put before a board of inquiry. And "without" that kind of proof your theory is nothing more than that, a theory. Or an opinion. Which ever you prefer.

First, yes what you say is possible. However, the impact on the effectiveness of a military organization is devastating. Following orders (A regulation is the same as an order) is ESSENTIAL.

Ok, show me the impact of his not obeying orders. Show me that he was disciplined for disobedience of a lawful order during a time of war. Punishable with death by firing squad or prison time.

Second, if as you suggest a member of the military chooses to disobey or ignore regulations and orders, so long as they are lawful, they MUST be held accountable. What happened with Lt. Bush is that he chooses to disobey several regulations (Drill Attendance, Maintain Flight qualification and taking his annual Flight Physical) and was not held accountable. He was REWARDED with an EARLY HONORABLE discharge as if he met his responsibilities. ANY other OFFICER who did what Lt. Bush did would have been disciplined as regulations prescribe for failing to obey the regulations.

If it was a problem of the military he would have been put up on charges. You have no evidence this happened so there is no proof he broke the law. Please understand that people break those regulations a lot. They are not arrested or punished harder than having thier flight status removed until they comply. This was done and seems to be the extent of his punishment for his crime.

He was not rewarded with an early discharge he requested it through his chain of command and it was approved through his chain of command. He earned his honorable discharge as it is documented. I don't know about the National Guard, but in the Marines the dicision of the type of discharge is made at Headquarters Marine Corps not at the local level. So according to you the entire National Guard pulled strings to give him a discharge he did not deserve or he earned it according to the rules and regulations.

The secretary to Bush’s CO said that Bush was given a Written Order to complete his Flight physical. She knows this because she typed that letter that Bush was given by CO. She did say that the actual letter CBS used was not the letter she typed but that it was exactly like the one she typed.

You were an officer in the U. S. Army correct? You never had things typed up and then chose not to use it? I typed up a lot of stuff to dsicipline my people. They saw the paper work and got in line, the paper work was trashed and nothing more was said about it. So she could be telling the truth that it was like what she typed but it was not put into his record. Something that was not within her perview. This is why we have an offical record book. What is in the book is fact all else is fiction.

There is PROOF he did not take the REQUIRED Physical and that he did not attend drills for a period of 5 months in 1972. He was to have been the subjected to the BOARD OF IQUIRARY after being grounded. All that did not take place even though there is proof Bush disobeyed Air Force Regulations. That could only happen because some high ranking officers did not deal with Bush they way Regulations required and the way any other officer would have been dealt with under the same situation!

If what you say is true then someone broke the law and got away with it. How do you account for the fact that every year of service a copy of your record book is sent to, in my case, HQMC in case something happens to the local units records. This would mean that not only the officers but enlisted from the local unit all the way up to headquarters archival unit in DC had to be involved. Sorry but there are too many checks and balances involved to give your theory any credibility because there are too few to come forward to say it was foul play.

drmiler

WRONG - His own Military Records show he failed to take the physical and his pay records show he did not attend drills. He escaped punishment which is the issue!

“Ok, show me the impact of his not obeying orders. Show me that he was disciplined for disobedience of a lawful order during a time of war. Punishable with death by firing squad or prison time.”


A pilot that was trained was unavailable. The fact he was not punished is the issue. If you are telling me as a Marine that served 7 years you condone an officer in the U.S. Air Force failing to follow lawful orders and regulations you are a disgrace the proud Corps you served.


“If it was a problem of the military he would have been put up on charges. You have no evidence this happened so there is no proof he broke the law.”

His own records show he failed to take a REQUIRED Flight Physical. His pay records show he failed to attend drills. He was grounded which meant he could not perform the function for which he was trained and for which he agreed to perform for the 6 years of his obligation when he was commissioned!

“This would mean that not only the officers but enlisted from the local unit all the way up to headquarters archival unit in DC had to be involved. Sorry but there are too many checks and balances involved to give your theory any credibility because there are too few to come forward to say it was foul play”.

There is NO question people at a very high level allowed Bush to violate regulations. His admission to Prof. Tsurumi shows that Lt. Bush was taken care of by Daddy's friends both in getting into the Guard and getting out!

LOL.  This again.

drmiler WRONG - His own Military Records show he failed to take the physical and his pay records show he did not attend drills. He escaped punishment which is the issue!

You are an idiotic joke! Like was said before by Paladin...There is NO WAY he could have escaped punishment. There are just TOO MANY people involved. Somebody, somewhere along the line would have caught it. This is just more of the same old "I hate Bush" crap.

drmiler

The same way he got into the Guard ahead of 150 others with the LOWEST Flight Aptitude Score and NO military Experience Answer -- Daddy.

His own records confirm the fact he did not take the physical and was grounded. Regulations required a Board on inquiry for which there is NO record. Yes if you have the right PULL you can get away with disobeying military orders. Bush proved that! WHY would Bush have refused to that his physical? I would like to hear ONE GOOD REASON. It is a routine occurrence that everyone in the military is required to take. Hell as enlisted they line you up and march you off to the doctors!

A pilot that was trained was unavailable. The fact he was not punished is the issue. If you are telling me as a Marine that served 7 years you condone an officer in the U.S. Air Force failing to follow lawful orders and regulations you are a disgrace the proud Corps you served.

Actually col I served much longer than 7 years. You say I condone such actions but that is not true. What I am saying is that you are saying he broke the rules and was not punished for it. He was punished for not taking his physical by losing his flight status. What more do you want to do to the man? Many pilots have not taken their physical from time to time the punishment is they are not allowed to fly until they have a physical proving they are in shape to fly. Crime and punishment. Just not the punishment you want does not mean that he got over Scott free. He got the normal punishment for what he failed to do. You want to make it a larger issue in order to vilify a man you hate.

His own records show he failed to take a REQUIRED Flight Physical. His pay records show he failed to attend drills. He was grounded which meant he could not perform the function for which he was trained and for which he agreed to perform for the 6 years of his obligation when he was commissioned!

He lost flight time and flight pay the normal punishment for what he failed to do. You say you were an Officer in the Army yet you can't seem to understand how the system seems to work even though I as a ground pounder knew and understood how it works and I am working from memory over 20 years old.

There is NO question people at a very high level allowed Bush to violate regulations. His admission to Prof. Tsurumi shows that Lt. Bush was taken care of by Daddy's friends both in getting into the Guard and getting out!

Right so what that all the people involved say different. One person you interviewed says different so everyone else has to be lying. The entire chain of command from local commanders up to and including headquarters was involved in the conspiracy and the person that got this help confided in one lone professor blowing the secrecy forever. Makes sense to you.

drmiler The same way he got into the Guard ahead of 150 others with the LOWEST Flight Aptitude Score and NO military Experience Answer -- Daddy. His own records confirm the fact he did not take the physical and was grounded. Regulations required a Board on inquiry for which there is NO record. Yes if you have the right PULL you can get away with disobeying military orders. Bush proved that! WHY would Bush have refused to that his physical? I would like to hear ONE GOOD REASON. It is a routine occurrence that everyone in the military is required to take. Hell as enlisted they line you up and march you off to the doctors!

Your words to me are like rain on a ducks back....of absolutely NO consequence!

Paladin77

"Actually col I served much longer than 7 years. You say I condone such actions but that is not true. What I am saying is that you are saying he broke the rules and was not punished for it. He was punished for not taking his physical by losing his flight status. What more do you want to do to the man? Many pilots have not taken their physical from time to time the punishment is they are not allowed to fly until they have a physical proving they are in shape to fly."

You have got be kidding!!! It was NOT a punishment to Lt. Bush to be grounded but to the Air Guard that spent a lot of money to train him as a pilot that he did NOT perform. The punishment for disobeying orders is far more serious then grounding. The grounding was a consequence of not taking the physical since without knowing his physical condition made it impossible for the Air Guard to allow him to fly.

The recommendation of the punishment for a pilot that is grounded like Lt. Bush is what the Mandatory Board is about. The consequence for failing to attend drills is to place the member on Active Duty and subject them to assignment where ever needed. GWB disobeyed at least two different regulations and was not given the punishment that was both required and that any other officer would have received given the same circumstances. He was granted TWO Favors—Early Release from his 6 year obligation and an Honorable Discharge that HE DID NOT EARN!

More data on Bush:

Published on Thursday, September 9, 2004 by the Boston Globe
Bid Cited to Boost Bush in Guard
'73 Memo Tells of Request to 'Sugar-Coat' Report

by Walter V. Robinson and Francie Latour

In August 1973, President Bush's superior officer in the Texas Air National Guard wrote a memorandum complaining that the commanding general wanted him to ''sugar coat" an annual officer evaluation for First Lieutenant Bush, even though Bush had not been at the base for the year in question, according to new documents obtained and broadcast last night by CBS News.

The commander, the late Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian, wrote that he turned aside the suggestion from Brigadier General Walter B. Staudt, Bush's political mentor in the Guard. But he and another officer agreed to ''backdate" a report -- evidently the evaluation -- in which they did not rate him at all. There is such a report in Bush's file, dated May 2, 1973.

''I'll backdate but won't rate," Killian apparently wrote in what is labeled a ''memo to file." Initials that appear to be Killian's are on the memo, but not his name or unit letterhead.

The August 1973 document, dated as Bush was preparing to leave Texas to attend the Harvard Business School, represents the first apparent evidence of an attempt to embellish Bush's service record as his time in the Guard neared its end.

The four pages of documents also contain an August 1972 order from Killian, suspending Bush from flying status for ''failure to perform" up to US Air Force and Texas Air National Guard standards and failing to take his annual flight physical. The suspension came three months after Killian had ordered Bush to take his physical, on May 14, 1972.

The documents also contain what appears to be Killian's memo of a meeting he had with Bush in May 1972, at which they discussed the option of Bush skipping his military drills for the following six months while he worked on a US Senate campaign in Alabama. During that meeting, Killian wrote that he reminded Bush ''of our investment in him and his commitment."

CBS, on its Evening News and in an in-depth report on ''60 Minutes," said it obtained the documents from Killian's ''personal files." Anchorman Dan Rather reported that the White House did not dispute the authenticity of the documents and said the network had used document authorities to verify their authenticity.

The disclosures by CBS follow a report in yesterday's Globe that Bush signed documents in 1968 and in 1973 promising to fulfill specific training requirements or face a punitive order to active duty. The records examined by the Globe, and verified by several former military officers, show that Bush did not meet his commitments. Nor was he penalized.

Go to this Web site for More:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/6/4/134514/4806

Go to this Web site for More: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/6/4/134514/4806

LOL.

More data on Bush: Published on Thursday, September 9, 2004 by the Boston Globe Bid Cited to Boost Bush in Guard '73 Memo Tells of Request to 'Sugar-Coat' Report by Walter V. Robinson and Francie Latour In August 1973, President Bush's superior officer in the Texas Air National Guard wrote a memorandum complaining that the commanding general wanted him to ''sugar coat" an annual officer evaluation for First Lieutenant Bush, even though Bush had not been at the base for the year in question, according to new documents obtained and broadcast last night by CBS News. {SNIP} Go to this Web site for More: Link

Number 1 this is from daily KOS, what else could you expect? second you should read all that you linked to:

Posted 9/9/2004 Updated 9/21/2004 The following are memos that formed the basis of a CBS 60 Minutes report that raised questions about President George W. Bush’s Texas Air National Guard service. CBS has since backed away from the report and admitted that it cannot vouch for the authenticity of the documents. Bill Burkett, a former Texas Guard officer who provided copies of the memos to CBS and USA TODAY has subsequently said he lied about the source of the documents.

More hate Bush crap as per usual from you. And again as usual...this thread was about federal funding for stem cell research, not GW military record. I can see again as per usual you found that you were losing the argument so "you" changed the subject. How utterly pathetic!

drmiler The same way he got into the Guard ahead of 150 others with the LOWEST Flight Aptitude Score and NO military Experience Answer -- Daddy.

More bullsh*t! That is unless you have proof that daddy helped? Without proof, it's merely "supposition/opinion" neither one of which is worth spit.

drmiler

GWB admitted that Daddy got him into and out of the Guard. I have confirmation from the man Bush told this to at Harvard! You are Full of BS .