"1. The Quran refers to Canaan as the land G-d gave to the people of Israel, but the "Palestinians" insist that it be called by the name the Greek and Roman pagans gave to it."

That's a doctrinal thang, just like Christians here have. Some, believe it or not, consider Islam a religion ONLY for Arabs. Not white people, not black people, not turks, not Iranians, based upon the same family of scripture you're referring to.

Some believe the Koran say that Islam was "complete" when Muhammad died, and therefore it is a religion only for Arabs, and only in those parts of the world that he controlled at the time, which was basically Saudi Arabia.

BUT... as always you can make a religious book ambiguously phrased, say anything you want, and the majority in the Middle East, most notably terrorists who profit from it, see it differently.

"2. The worst murderer of Muslims ever has been executed and the "Palestinians" mourn his death."

That's a tad more complex. Iranians aren't racial arabs historically, so that is a major division. They were also the Persian empire, which like the Ottoman empire is a historical "bad guy" in the middle east. They are also the cornerstone of Shia radicalism, which Palestinians traditionally don't share or even appreciate as a religious philosophy.

"3. The King of Jordan, of Mohammed's family and of the traditional ruling family of the holy cities of Islam (until the Saudis violently took over), wants peace with the people of Israel, but the "Palestinians" defy his authority."

One reason for that is the PLO and other terrorist interests want Jordan to be a base, like Lebanon. They've tried to usurp Hashemite rule there.

The Al-Aqsa mosque is in Jerusalem, and many Muslims can't bare the idea of "idolaters" and the unclean having control. It's like any other religion, there's no one interpretation. Not for Jews, not for Christians, and obviously not for Muslims.

Just look at the Jews take on Israel. Many don't believe in the right of Israel to exist biblically, either, at least until the Messiah creates it.

heh, there's lots of things that are very clear in the Christian Bible that don't end up so clear. When you read "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" it takes a bit of doctrinal explanation to clear up why we no longer stone wiccans.

As for the words, Do Isrealis call Palestine 'Israel' or 'canaan'? It seems to me there is a necessity for a second name since Israelis themselves don't want a one-nation solution, right? I'm not understanding your gripe.

After all, the word "Jerusalem" isn't even found in the Koran. To be fair, I can't find the word "canaan", and the only instances of the word "Israel" I find are references to the people, not the place. Do you have a place in the Koran that you can reference that shows modern Muslims departing from the Koranic name?

What is the land called in the Koran, if you could point that out to me.

as long as they follow the first rule of being a good MUSLIM, hate all Jews, that's all that counts to be in the club.

Côté théologie, on peut épiloguer tout le temps qu'on veut, ça ne nous avancera pas d'un iota sur la destinée des Palestiniens... Je touve cette réduction des palestiniens - des musulmans - à leur dogme très aléatoire, puisqu'elle fait abstraction de l'histoire, du patrimoine, de la démographie, du sentiment national et surtout du processus politique et de la problématique de la paix... Somme toute, noyer le poisson dans la sophistaction hitorico-théologique !!!



Sans m'apesantir dans l'histricisme intellectuel, n'importe qui , avec un zeste de bon sens, peut remarquer, que le regne des Juifs ne représente pas plus q'une simple période de toute la période palestinienne. J'en reste là.

I'm not telling you to stop talking theology, I'm just addressing this particular point. I think you are ignoring the dichotomy between modern Zionist Israel and ancient, biblical Israel. People like Iran's president don't consider the two to be the same, and frankly neither do a lot of Jews.

I'm not telling you to stop talking theology, I'm just addressing this particular point.

I wasn't talking to you there.

I think you are ignoring the dichotomy between modern Zionist Israel and ancient, biblical Israel. People like Iran's president don't consider the two to be the same, and frankly neither do a lot of Jews.

Frankly, the opinion of the anti-Semitic idiot who calls himself the president of Iran is not a very important point here at all. As for the "dichotomy", the relation between today's Israel and ancient Israel is the same as between ancient Persia and current Iran: it's the continuation of the culture. Some cultures are really old.

Modern "Zionist" Israel is a mixture between modern times and Jewish culture, just as it should be. Lebanon could be considered an Arab equivalent, if the Lebanese could manage to stop fighting for a few years.

That's a tad more complex. Iranians aren't racial arabs historically, so that is a major division. They were also the Persian empire, which like the Ottoman empire is a historical "bad guy" in the middle east. They are also the cornerstone of Shia radicalism, which Palestinians traditionally don't share or even appreciate as a religious philosophy.

Just curious.  But how does Iran fit in with the quoted statement?

BakerStreetJanuary 2, 2007 10:11:23

I am aware of that, but the statement was about (I think) Saddam, and he is not Iranian. I was not disputing your statement, but was curious why you chose to make it after quoting Item 2 of Andrew's statements.

Thanks for the explanation. Now it makes sense. But I think Andrew was referring to Saddam's genocide (again I could be wrong, but that was my assumption) against his own countrymen, and not necessarily the I&I war.

But you could be right, I just read it differently.

Well, the Kurds aren't Muslims traditionally, are they?

Well, shiver me timbers! I always assumed they were, but checking up on it, apparently they are not. My mistake.

To BakerStreet

Thanks for ur explanations !

Encore une fois, et je ne sais combien de fois on doit le répéter, l'islam et les musulmans ne forment en aucun cas un seul bloc monolithique, c'est toujours à prendre avec des pincettes... A bon entendeur !

But I think Andrew was referring to Saddam's genocide (again I could be wrong, but that was my assumption) against his own countrymen, and not necessarily the I&I war.

I was referring to both.

And I would expect a good Muslim to mourn any deaths, particularly Muslim deaths, and not celebrate the person responsible for the deaths.

I would also expect a good Christian to mourn any deaths, particularly Christian deaths, and not celebrate the person responsible for the deaths.

A Christian who celebrates a murderer, particularly a murderer of Christians, is NOT a good Christian.

And a Muslim who celebrates a murderer, particularly a murderer of Muslims, is NOT a good Muslim.

"Palestine" is not a name like "Canaan" (which I used here as a neutral choice). "Palestine" is SPECIFICALLY what the pagans named the area to ERASE its connection with the G-d of Judaism (i.e. with Allah).

I would expect a follower of the one true god (i.e. Allah) to REJECT a pagan name for a holy land, ESPECIALLY when that name was given to the land specifically to erase the land's connection with Allah.

The Quran refers to the land as the land that G-d gave to the people of Israel. That would be the way to call the land in the most Islamic sense.

But "Palestine" is the pagan name.

""Palestine" is not a name like "Canaan" (which I used here as a neutral choice). "Palestine" is SPECIFICALLY what the pagans named the area to ERASE its connection with the G-d of Judaism (i.e. with Allah)."

Eh, like I said, the Old Testament refers to that land as Palestine, so the Jews would have adopted that name hundreds of years before there WAS Islam. "Canaan" is not in the Koran, and neither is Jerusalem, and the only times "Israel" is used it refers to people, not a place.

What name do you propose they call it, given the fact that modern Israelis use the term "Palestine" and "Palestinian" all the time?

"I would expect a follower of the one true god (i.e. Allah) to REJECT a pagan name for a holy land, ESPECIALLY when that name was given to the land specifically to erase the land's connection with Allah."

You're aware that there were no Muslims around during the the Old Testament era and Roman empire, right? So given that Islam was hundreds of years after the word came into use, no doubt a lot of pagan names were already common "official" names. Given you find the word in Joel, it seems odd you think it has anything to do with Islam.

"The Quran refers to the land as the land that G-d gave to the people of Israel. That would be the way to call the land in the most Islamic sense."

So when you refer to non-Israeli Palestine, you'll be saying "the land that God gave to the people of Israel where now live non-Israelis"??? That seems, well, a bit long. If you would, revue the Koran and tell me what Koranic name they should use.

"Or perhaps I am mis-understanding the religion?"

So far as I know there's never been a US war where we didn't cheer the deaths of our enemies. There have been many times in US history we've hailed generals who killed many Christians. Heck, we hailed generals who killed AMERICANS in the civil war...