Is This Justice?

Saddam Hussein is dead. Or, at least that's the official story. And, frankly, it's the story I buy because I see no compelling interest for our government to keep the man alive.

As he heads to whatever Valhalla awaits mass murdering evil dictators, bloggers like me who possess more free time and bandwidth than we do wisdom will write on the subject. And in the processing of their thoughts, many of these writers will parade words like "justice" across their blogs, in a sense demanding that the death of Saddam Hussein is a kind of balance to the scales, a kind of yin to the yang for the man who put so many of his countrymen in their grave prematurely.

I contend, however, that it is in no way justice. It is, however, a darn good way to prevent recidivism.

You see, no hangman's rope can exorcise the demons that will haunt the thoughts and dreams of the victims of this man for the remainder of their lives. No court order can ever cause these people to forget lives torn apart, family members taken away to never be seen again, or acts of violence perpetuated against their family. There is no judge on earth that can heal these peoples' pain.

For that reason, I believe that nobody's death, not even Saddam Hussein's, is to be celebrated.

What Saddam's execution did do, while not providing true justice, was just as important. It did ensure that no mother will ever lose her son to this butcher. That no child's father will never fall to the goons of this dictator. While evil men will always rise and fall and other dictators will certainly come around, as they always have, this one dictator, this one evil man will not live to see another day or torture another soul. And while it is poor compensation for the losses these millions have suffered, it is assurance for the millions more who will not.

Was Saddam's execution justice? No, it was not. But it was a badly needed ending for a country too long torn apart by war.

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Reply #1 Top

I think, in our haste to blur every standard that has ever existed or just plain gets in the way of our own views... we have forgotten what "justice" actually is.

Justice does include restitution, when restitution is possible.  However, there are some crimes that restitution is simply impossible.  So does that mean that we simply ignore them?

That is the whole reason these crimes are deemed more heinous than others.  But they also make it harder to see the justice in punishing them to the fullest extent justice demands.

So we are left with a blurring line between "justice" and "revenge".  The fact is, the line between justice and revenge is even further apart than those where restitution (at least in part) is possible.

Revenge is taking "an eye for an eye" to make the victims feel better.  Whether it is carried out by the victims or not.  It is done to satisfy the demands of individuals.

On the other hand, true justice means to satisfy the demands of the humanity itself.  When a person's actions are so inhuman that their very existance defies humanity.  To allow them to live defies humanity itself.

To acknowledge Hussein's crimes, but then fall short of meeting the demands of justice isn't mercy, it is allowing humanity to lower itself to the point where Justice is no longer recognized.

 

 

 

Reply #2 Top
On the other hand, true justice means to satisfy the demands of the humanity itself. When a person's actions are so inhuman that their very existance defies humanity. To allow them to live defies humanity itself.


To be honest I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I would argue that Hussein's actions were extremely human, and quite typical of our kind. He merely went about the pursuit of his desires in a more aggressive fashion than is currently popular. A century ago he would have been a hero. Two centuries ago he would have been a humanist.

There's no point denying human nature's proclivity for extreme violence and degradation just so we can feel morally superior. Any moral superiority we might possess is based on our personal rejection of that aspect of humanity, not its nonexistence.

Punishing Saddam with death may make us feel better, but it cheapens us to think that it satisfies any notion of justice to any real extent or that it was the most fitting punishment available. We've had millenia to perfect the art of torture and suffering, and Saddam wasn't nearly so good as many others. If we really intended justice we could have inflicted a lifetime of suffering on the man - psychological, physical, spiritual.

Instead we chose death for him. Call it merciful if you like, but it's neither just nor adequate.
Reply #3 Top
It may not be considered justice, but it was the right thing to do. Keeping this man alive would have been a mistake.
Reply #4 Top
It may not be considered justice, but it was the right thing to do. Keeping this man alive would have been a mistake.


I never questioned that it was the best thing to do given the circumstances (I will never consider killing another man or woman the "right" thing to do...at its best it is the lesser of several evils). But don't call it justice. Justice would in some way restore to these families what they have lost. And this doesn't even begin to do that.

As I said about the death of al-Zarqawi, I will say about the death of Saddam Hussein. Killing him is like squashing a cockroach; neither good nor bad in itself, the action simply is what it is. It is made necessary because the negative consequences of not acting outweigh the negative consequences of actins.
Reply #5 Top
But in the eyes of the man laws it is justice - justice as toted by the local laws has been meted out by the justice system in place - it is justice.

jus·tice /ˈdʒʌstɪs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[juhs-tis] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause.
2. rightfulness or lawfulness, as of a claim or title; justness of ground or reason: to complain with justice.
3. the moral principle determining just conduct.
4. conformity to this principle, as manifested in conduct; just conduct, dealing, or treatment.
5. the administering of deserved punishment or reward.
6. the maintenance or administration of what is just by law, as by judicial or other proceedings: a court of justice.
7. judgment of persons or causes by judicial process: to administer justice in a community.
8. a judicial officer; a judge or magistrate.
9. (initial capital letter) Also called Justice Department. the Department of Justice.
—Idioms
10. bring to justice, to cause to come before a court for trial or to receive punishment for one's misdeeds: The murderer was brought to justice.
11. do justice,
a. to act or treat justly or fairly.
b. to appreciate properly: We must see this play again to do it justice.
c. to acquit in accordance with one's abilities or potentialities: He finally got a role in which he could do himself justice as an actor.

But don't call it justice. Justice would in some way restore to these families what they have lost. And this doesn't even begin to do that.


It may not in the eyes of the victims be retribution or the retribution they wanted, but hey have had justcice.

ret·ri·bu·tion (rět'rə-byōō'shən) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. Something justly deserved; recompense.
2. Something given or demanded in repayment, especially punishment.
3. Theology Punishment or reward distributed in a future life based on performance in this one.



Reply #6 Top
Jennifer,

How is the killing of another EVER rightful or lawful? You need to bend the definition of justice pretty badly to call it justice. You need to go all the way down to the 5th or 6th definitions to find a definition that begins to fit...and even there, I personally find it questionable. Is it "just" to administer a humane execution to a man who brutalized thousands?

"Retribution" actually WOULD be a better word than "justice". But I hope I do not live to see the day when I consider the killing of another to be just.
Reply #7 Top
Jennifer,

How is the killing of another EVER rightful or lawful? You need to bend the definition of justice pretty badly to call it justice. You need to go all the way down to the 5th or 6th definitions to find a definition that begins to fit...and even there, I personally find it questionable. Is it "just" to administer a humane execution to a man who brutalized thousands?

"Retribution" actually WOULD be a better word than "justice". But I hope I do not live to see the day when I consider the killing of another to be just.


Sorry Gid, but I gotta go with Jen on this one. Line #5 followed by line #10 sums it up best:

5. the administering of deserved punishment or reward.



10. bring to justice, to cause to come before a court for trial or to receive punishment for one's misdeeds: The murderer was brought to justice.
Reply #8 Top
drmiller,

Actually, I believe "justice" in the context of line #5 would be far, far more cruel. Like leaving him alone in a room with families of his victims. I still believe "retribution" is a better definition.
Reply #9 Top
Gid, you don't believe in self defense? The necessity of war? If so, isn't it just a sliding scale from that point on?
Reply #10 Top

How is the killing of another EVER rightful or lawful?

Many laws are not right, but they are law.  Ergo, it was lawful.  But that does not in itself make it right.

Reply #11 Top
What I found most ironic is that the British government refused to back the death penalty for Saddam. Basically, they are quite happy to vaporize hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people yet when it comes to the Butcher of Baghdad... 'oh we oppose the death penalty!'
Reply #12 Top
'oh we oppose the death penalty!'


that is because those who shout loudest in this country get their own way and to hell with the rest. It really is quite pathetic as logic just goes out the window most of the time with each loud voice.
Reply #14 Top
Yeah well the British suck, thats why we OWN their country.


least we are damn good at sucking! hahahah

and who might we be?
Reply #15 Top
Sorry Gid, but you make it sound like this is something every believes when in reality it is just what you and some others want to believe. You talk as though you actually know this does not make the family of victims feel better. You talk as if everyone agrees with you and you can prove it.

Justice is not about bringing back the dead, giving back what was taken from the others or turning back the clock and making everything how it was before the crime. Justice is about making sure that he/she who committed the crime is proven guilty (if he/she is guilty)and is punished according to the laws that exist. Justice is about proving the person is innocent (if the person is really innocent) and setting them free.

Call it what you want, the man killed too many and enjoyed every single one. Every dog has it's day and while we will never give what everyone deserves, it's nice to know that we don't ignore all of them.

I find it kinda interesting that both you and cacto seem to agree that Saddam's death was pointless yet both of you have opposite reasons for it. You think it is not human to kill another person while cacto thinks it's human nature. But the only real thing I get from both of you is that somehow it was OK for Saddam to have killed so many, without a single regret, including women and children, but he did not deserve death because it was either "inhumane" or "why kill him for doing something thats part of human nature".

But in the end, it does not matter what you think, for that matter it does not matter what anyone who does not live under Iraqi law thinks cause it is not our country who did it. It was done under their laws and it is what they believe in just like how some states here in the US believe in Capital Punishment.

You don't think it's justice? Fine, it will not change a thing either way. Saddam is gone and that's that. Those who think it was just will enjoy and those who oppoed it can do just that, oppose.

I gotta wonder though, would you and cacto feel the same if we found Osama, put him on trial, found him guilty and executed him. Cause as far as I'm concerned, that would be something I would pay $100 on pay-per-view to see.
Reply #16 Top
Justice? The only ones who can answer that are the victims but you know that's not happening.
Reply #17 Top
drmiller,

Actually, I believe "justice" in the context of line #5 would be far, far more cruel. Like leaving him alone in a room with families of his victims. I still believe "retribution" is a better definition.


You're kidding right? He'd "still" end up dead!
Reply #18 Top
You're kidding right? He'd "still" end up dead!


Reply #19 Top
But the only real thing I get from both of you is that somehow it was OK for Saddam to have killed so many, without a single regret, including women and children, but he did not deserve death because it was either "inhumane" or "why kill him for doing something thats part of human nature".

Don't worry, we all know you struggle from reading comprehension. I don't have any real problem with executing him - we all know he's guilty, so there's no doubt to stain his execution - I just don't think it's just or even comes close to retribution. We're a creative species. We could inflict unimaginable horrors on him and then, with our medical technologies, resurrect him from near-dead and do it all over again.

Killing him by hanging is simply convenient.
Reply #20 Top
We're a creative species. We could inflict unimaginable horrors on him and then, with our medical technologies, resurrect him from near-dead and do it all over again.


Reminds me of the rhyme from childhood:

"I read it in the Bible, so I know it's the truth: An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."


Sounds good. Now to the problem of a world full of blind people who can't eat.

In the real world, justice isn't so simple.


However, I do agree he deserved to hang, and hanged he is.
Reply #21 Top
Cactoblasta:
To be honest I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I would argue that Hussein's actions were extremely human, and quite typical of our kind. He merely went about the pursuit of his desires in a more aggressive fashion than is currently popular. A century ago he would have been a hero. Two centuries ago he would have been a humanist.


If his kind of scum is the "typical" human being, why is his kind of criminal so rare? Yes, humans are capable of horrendous acts, so why do you stereotype us all, based on the actions of so few?
Reply #22 Top
so why do you stereotype us all, based on the actions of so few?


*cough* hypocrit *cough*

Now, my bit on this...

I dont find it to be justice, at all. It was vengance, retribution. There is no justice in killing a human being, no matter who they are or what they did. No matter what.

Reply #23 Top

If his kind of scum is the "typical" human being, why is his kind of criminal so rare? Yes, humans are capable of horrendous acts, so why do you stereotype us all, based on the actions of so few?


Hussein wasn't tried for being a bad man. He was convicted for being a terrible and vicious ruler responsible for the shadow deaths of his citizens and the gassing of the Kurds (I think we can all agree the specific charges were merely placesetters for the main game). If you look at the rulers whose names have survived history they are almost without exception as ruthless and evil as Hussein. Even the ones we laud knew where the thumbscrews were kept.

It might be nice to think that somehow despots are only rarely vicious and brutal, but I don't think that's a viewpoint supported by the records we have available to us.
Reply #24 Top
Don't worry, we all know you struggle from reading comprehension.


Heh, your a funny guy cacto. I see you have taken Col gene's stance of speaking for everyone as well. What is it with people like you that seem to think that you speak for everyone?

I don't have any real problem with executing him - we all know he's guilty, so there's no doubt to stain his execution - I just don't think it's just or even comes close to retribution. We're a creative species. We could inflict unimaginable horrors on him and then, with our medical technologies, resurrect him from near-dead and do it all over again.


I never said you had a problem with his execution, but more for the reasons. Sure you know he did what he did, yet you somehow seem to think that was no reason to kill him. And maybe you can explain to me how come is it that people like you seem to be bashing Bush for doing, behind closed doors you can say, basically what you would have wanted done to Saddam.

It doesn't matter though, a person who starts an argument with an insult is usually a person not worth debating with. So don't even bother answering the question I just asked, not that you really could.
Reply #25 Top
Hussein wasn't tried for being a bad man.


Really?

He was convicted for being a terrible and vicious ruler responsible for the shadow deaths of his citizens and the gassing of the Kurds (I think we can all agree the specific charges were merely placesetters for the main game).


So being a terrible and vicious ruler does not make him a bad man? I guess you must be right about my reading comprehension.