Draginol Draginol

Give a homeless man $100k and he'll squander it

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Give a homeless man $100k and he'll squander it

Poverty is the result of poor choices

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2006/08/the_power_of_pe.html
from JoeUser Forums

A long time ago I wrote "the value of working hard".  One of the comments I made is that in my experience, having grown up around genuinely poor people that most of them are poor because, frankly, they're losers. Show me a consistently poor American and I'll show you someone who is either disabled, or more commonly a fool.

Joe Knowledge followed this with an article called "poor people are stpuid" as a response to what I had written arguing that most poor people are poor becaues of circumstance and bad luck and that I lacked compassion.

Most bleeding hearts for the poor, like Joe Knowledge, have never done very much research into the causes of poverty in America.  We have 40 years of research on the subject and time and time again the same statistics show up -- overwhelmingly, people who live in poverty are idiotic. There are exceptions but they are just that -- exceptions.

Once in awhile, someone wants to prove that if a poor person is just given a break, they can be just as successful as someone else.  Remember the moving Trading Places?  Well, in real life, everytme they run such an experiment the same result happens.

There have been numerous social examples of philanthropists giving money to the abject poor to help them only to discover it ends up squandered.

I recently came across a show called "Reversal of Fortune". In it, Showtime gave a homeless man $100,000.  The qualification was that they picked a man without any overt mental illness or drug addiction. The idea was to show that many homeless people are just victims of circumstance and that if given a break will make something of themselves.

Alas, to their surprise the Homeless man soon sqaundered the money and was back on the streets.

Which underscores what many of us have known -- taking property from people who earn it and giving it to people who don't is not just immoral but it is a waste of time.  Overwhelmingly, 1st world citizens who are living in consistent poverty are doing so due to their own faults that can't be remedied by throwing money at the situation.

That doesn't mean every single person living in poverty ended up there due to poor choices. There are disabled people. There are genuinely people who have gotten incredibly bad luck (but they won't stay in poverty). But the reality is, poverty in the United States is not something that can be cured -- not with money anyway.

 

politics
14,037 views 41 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top
Brad,

Dunno if you caught this one, but it's food for thought in the same vein:

http://gideon-macleish.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=137651
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top
I've been forced to start over more than once. I am in the midst of a start over now. It really sucks.


I've been forced to start over a few times, too. Had to reinvent myself as a factory worker, middle management, retail sales (not that hard a transition), miner, writer, politician, IT pro. Don't know where the road goes from here, but it seems like I'm on a good path.
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Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top
But wouldn't it be cool to plop a waelthy person down in some far distant city with nothing and see how he'd do? I mean, he can't use ANYTHING from his former state to give him a leg up, like his/her degrees or people they know.
I'd like to see if they could go from homelessness to dishwasher to busboy to wait person to...on and on until they make another fortune. Or would they find that, hey! This shit's a lot harder than it looks! and fail and lve in a cardboard box.

Yeah, that would be a cool experiment
Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top
What's really sad is when this happens in real life. Link
Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top
But wouldn't it be cool to plop a waelthy person down in some far distant city with nothing and see how he'd do? I mean, he can't use ANYTHING from his former state to give him a leg up, like his/her degrees or people they know.
I'd like to see if they could go from homelessness to dishwasher to busboy to wait person to...on and on until they make another fortune. Or would they find that, hey! This shit's a lot harder than it looks! and fail and lve in a cardboard box.

Yeah, that would be a cool experiment


I've wondered that myself, shovel. Being a person who has worked his way up basically from zero to lower middle class on several occasions (TWICE in the past four years!), I've wondered if the wealthy could do that.
Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top

15 years ago I was driving a chevette and made less than $10,000 a year. No degree. No family connections. Heck, only child of a single parent.

I did end up getting a college degree but have never used it nor gotten any benefit from it. I started my own company with nothing. Just my own time and effort.

I don't think it's very likely that any self-made person, even if they were to lose it all, would end up homeless.

 

Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top
15 years ago I was driving a chevette and made less than $10,000 a year. No degree. No family connections. Heck, only child of a single parent.

I did end up getting a college degree but have never used it nor gotten any benefit from it. I started my own company with nothing. Just my own time and effort.


What do you think gave you that drive to succeed? Was there someone in your life who influenced your ambitions or do you think it was just something you were born with?
Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't think it's very likely that any self-made person, even if they were to lose it all, would end up homeless.


I can tell you from personal experience, Draginol, that it's possible to get VERY close to that mark. But, for the most part, you're right...if you're determined to find a way, you will.
Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top
But, for the most part, you're right...if you're determined to find a way, you will.

That's right. There's always a way if you're determined, even if you have to move to a different part of the country where there are more opportunities. The problem with a lot of poor people is they have a victim mentality. They believe society is to blame for all their problems and therefore it's useless to even try.
Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top
There's an option some people don't consider. Some people are fine with living in what other people consider 'poverty'. Some people pay for their insurance, take care of their children, and live simply out of appreciation for simplicity.

I think it would be more helpful to decide what we mean by "poverty" before we start vilifying or pitying people who live in it. I don't consider myself poor in the least, but I know people who think I am, and statistically I am darned close. You'd never know it by the way I live, though.
Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top
...and that's really the key. Are people demanding public services as they are poor? Are people a burden on society? I can see the hypocrisy of it if they are on one hand laying back and not being stressed about doing well, but then expecting the state to take up the slack. I think for a lot of people there's a lot more PUSH from bleeding hearts to spend money on them than there is pull from them to get the money.
Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply By: Tova7

Your story rings a bell.  We had neighbors that had worked hard and bought a very nice house.  The woman died, and within a year, the man did as well.  The 2 daughters moved in and trashed the house, and were back on the street within a year.  The house was paid off, so they did not have much to pay.  But they could not even do that much.  I felt sorry for the man and his wife (very nice people).  Not for the daughters tho.

Reply #38 from JoeUser Forums Top
Granted I have not had much time to 'make it in the world' or not as of yet - I do find contention with some points brought up. Now perhaps this is a result of my region of residence but I have never had a problem finding a job or affording a place to stay. At the ripe old age of 22 I was, according to the government, living below the poverty line yet I could still afford a place to stay, a car to drive and the insurance to cover it, food, entertainment and put 3% of my measly income away in my companies 401k. I have never not found a job to work at and in fact have changed jobs (and companies) several times in the last 3 years - each time to a better one
I believe the main problem with incidents described above is more that these people do not know how to handle money. Credit has taught people how to live beyond their means - with little or no regard to the future. Societies choice to teach people to deflect blame has only worsened the situation. Its not your fault you're poor - you're disadvantaged, you've been neglected or mistreated, its your parents fault. But ultimately your life is not for these people to live - you have to. If you're life sucks, whether its from a bad childhood or a recession its up to you to fix it. Self-reliance, responsibility(which includes money handling skills), the ability to think for and teach yourself - I think these are the essentials to live well and be happy.
Reply #39 from JoeUser Forums Top
When the government redistributes income, they do it free of charge. There are no requirements other than being poor... no action required. Most charities only help under given circumstances. Religious shelters will not allow you to live there and take advantage of them while you continue to be a drunk or addict. I think this is the most effective way to help people. Since the government can't/won't do it... leave it to the private sector. Charities etc.

It is much better to give to a charity that will genuinely try to help, than to just hand a $10 to a pan handler on the street.
Reply #40 from JoeUser Forums Top
When the government redistributes income, they do it free of charge.


Not true, actually. The government takes a TREMENDOUS charge in administrative costs for their redistribution.

You're right, of course, that charities are much more efficient. But I disagree about not giving $10 to the panhandler on the street, personally. Frankly, I can tell you from personal experience that there are costs charities will NOT pay (they'll pay for utilities, but not deposits, for instance. Can't turn many utilities on w/o a deposit). That, and, you still can't buy toilet paper or shampoo with food stamps.
Reply #41 from JoeUser Forums Top
Good points. I meant that the government gives without requiring anything of recipient. I don't believe in something for nothing.

Most pan handlers don't look like they need money for utilities deposits to me...