Flying Imams were up to something

Indeed they were up to something. Agreed on that.

But I'd say they wanted to disturb so much everybody so the crew would be forced to expulse them, so they could denounce the treatment they suffered, and how US Airways is discriminatory of Muslims.

All a big marketing ploy, that worked quite well however.

More oil on the fire of resentment

The other thing I found disturbing is the way the media handled this incident. As usual they immediately take the side of the imams and portray them as victims without detailing the suspicious and intimidating behavior they were doing.

 

What do you think this was Brad?

It was definitely a security probe. This is a win-win situation for them; if the passengers and crew don't respond, the imams know that they (or some of their followers) will be able to carry out future terrorist attacks unhindered. If the passengers and crew DO respond, the imams can yell "Poor pitiful us! We were just Flying While Muslim!" and their front groups like CAIR can put pressure on the government to make it more difficult to remove suspicious Islamic passengers in the future.

The crew definitely made the right choice, but the fact that these six men are walking around free after deliberately probing the security of an airline is quite worrying...surely these men should have been taken away by the FBI for some serious questioning. Instead, they are feted by a willing press who will take any opportunity to downplay the threat of Islamic terrorism here in the States.

What do you think this was Brad?

Do you do this on purpose? The article, obviously, describes what Brad thinks this was, yet somehow you ask anyways. You just love confrontations with Brad don't you? What a sick little puppy, if Brad was to rip as new butt hole on Bush, you would probably defend Bush.

What do you think this was Brad?

Yelling fire in a crowded theater.  They are lucky that they were not trampled.  But then society does seem to favor the stupids.

Take out the reference to Islam/Muslim in the story and it's not even news. Just some people acting like idiots on a plane and getting booted.

Take out the reference to Islam/Muslim in the story and it's not even news. Just some people acting like idiots on a plane and getting booted.

Very true!

I watched an interview with 4 of those creeps. The one was having a hard time not smiling as he spoke of how he was discriminated against. They were up to something alright.
I live in MN. . You would be hard pressed to find a more open minded place in this country. These morons were trying to cause trouble. They are lucky they aren't STILL being held.
There are those that have criticized the pilots for refusing to pull away from the gate. I think they should be thanked. Those are the pilots that I would want flying my plane.

PC

Just some people acting like idiots on a plane and getting booted.

I disagree. This was planned, but the purpose of it is what needs to be investigated.

Hey Charles I was asking his opinion since he posted on the topic when another thread on the same issue was already started?

Am I not allowed to speak here anymore? Is that against the rules?

"Sounds to me that they were either up to something or they were intentionally trying to get kicked off in an effort to put pressure on US airlines to weaken security."

So I get, what you mean by, intentionally trying to be kicked off, but what of the something else? Do you think this might have been an attempted terror situation? An attempted hijacking?

Another poster wrote "It was definitely a security probe."

"but the fact that these six men are walking around free after deliberately probing the security of an airline is quite worrying...surely these men should have been taken away by the FBI for some serious questioning."

I to agree that it is worrysome. Worrysome more that they haven't been charged with a crime and held for a trial. I guess perhaps they haven't committed any.

So the "press" makes the laws now? I think they were freed because they had committed no crime. If they had committed a criminal offense then they would have been held would they not be? I'm not a cop, an FBI agent, but thats who I perceive the system to work.

"I watched an interview with 4 of those creeps"
Could you PLEASE POST A G*DDAMN LINK SO THE REST OF US NO PRIVY TO YOUR INTIMATE KNOWLEDGE CAN VIEW IT TOO?

"They are lucky they aren't STILL being held."
"they are feted by a willing press who will take any opportunity to downplay the threat of Islamic terrorism here in the States."

So now it's both the media's fault in how they reported the story and, luck in general they were released. Guess it couldn't be that they didn't commit any crime and the authorities followed the law.

"This was planned, but the purpose of it is what needs to be investigated."
Agree completely.

Well, his smirk doesn't come through very well via YouTube...but it's there.
The glaring truth is that there were several people who reported these guys. Employees and passengers alike. But these Imams deny everything. They even claim the falsification of police records. PLEASE! And, where is the "Proof" they supposedly have?
Considering the FACT that well intentioned Muslim's fly every day without incident, I tend to believe the people who actually saw them and reported them. These Imams were TRYING to draw attention to themselves.....or they were testing the security measures.
It's also worth noting that they had just attended a large Muslim convention here in the Twin Cities. Why would THEY get singled out while there were NO complaints from the other atendees, many of whom flew in and out of Mpls. for the event?
I think it's also worth noting that this was a US Airways plane. The potential symbolism is present, and one of a large number of considerations.

Now, if you want to get on a plane with 6 men doing what these guys did...be my guest. But what motive, other than self preservation, did the people who reported this have? What motive did the people that were removed have? We still don't really know. This was no accident though.

As far as the G**damn link......all you had to do was Google it. It took me all of 4 clicks to find. PC

pajamasmedia.com/upload/2006/12/FlyingImamsPolice%20Report.pdf

Police report.

6'2" 250 lbs yeah he doesn't need a seatbelt extension.
5'9" 170 lbs
6' 178 lbs
6'1" 206 lbs
5'9" 170 lbs
6' 230 lbs

According to the police report these guys were denied passage on the flight even before the suspicious behavior on the plane.

"due to suspicious activity that another passenger witnessed prior to boarding the flight."

"He stated most of the six passengers seatbelt extensions."

"...they mentioned U.S. involvement with Saddam."

"He then eavesdropped into their conversation and overheard them mention Saddam and heard them curse about the U.S. involvement. He watched them face a certain position themselves together facing a certain direction and pray again in a group."

"Systematically from the rear to the front of the plane, we asked all six to leave the plane. All parties left cooperatively."

"After the detained passengers were transported from the gate area, the other passengers onboard the aircraft were also asked to exit the aircraft. After the passengers de-boarded the aircraft, Officer Moen and Randy [Police K-9] swept the entire place for explosives. Randy again showed no change in behavior. "

"No charges were filed by the FBI or other Federal Agency."

So it appears they cooperated and the decision to de-board them was even before they got on the plane. Contrary to some of the reporting I've read/seen thus far. Just wanted to add to the discussion.

The supposed note torn up...

"... a US Airways flight confirmation tag... email confirmation from Omar Shahin to Marwan Sadeddin with the names Didmar Fajam Marwan Sadeddin, and Ahmed Shqeirat, listed on the itinerary."

You'll note only five email addresses exist yet there was a sixth detainee, one of them is supposedly blind and perhaps not an email user.

Checking out of the detainees...
"...AutoTrack, Comprehensive Report..."
"The six passengers were interviewed separately by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the United States Marshall Service, and the US Secret Service."

"All subjects were subsequently released without charge from the Police Operations Center."

On why there were flying to Arizona like its any of our fu*king business at this point...

"Faja stated that he and the men he was traveling with were here in Minneapolis for an Imams meeting. Faja stated that all of the Imams that he was traveling with live in the area of Phoenix, and are leaders in the Phoenix area. Faja stated that he believed the whole incident started because some of the members of the group he was in were praying in the gate area prior to the flight boarding. Faja stated he did not particiape in the prayer with the rest of the group, he chose to pray when he got home to the Phoenix area."

Evidently they were cursing involvement with Saddam rather then Al Qaeda, or at least the evidence on paper suggests that. Who knows for sure, as the events were not recorded on audio to my knowledge. Lets try to explain why they wouldn't sit together. Isn't it a fact that if you try to get cheap tickets on expedia or something, you don't always get them or the best deal sitting consecutively. At least thats an explanation.

"I thought that I[t] was suspicious by the way they were praying very loud."

It also appears, only a single pasenger asked for a seatbelt extension, further, it's apparently not clear from the police report where that extension was while the passengers were on board, only that it was found on the floor after the Imams had been deplaned. It appears that one of the Imams went to the aft cabin, twice, and again during the delay the second time going all the way back to 25 E&F which is where the other guys were seated. That's all he noticed, from watching intently, no exchanging of items or constructing of a bomb, or gun or anything but hey how are you doing wtf is taking so long to get this plane in the air? .

"After the plane had deplaned, I wanted to board early so I walked up to the gate agent I noticed 3-4 people praying. I did not think this was too unusual. They looked like Muslems praying. I boarded the aircraft as everyone boarded around me. Two of the Msulem came on. One stood a row 4C and pretended to be blind. One went to row 9D, he talked another passenger into trading seats so that blind man, yellow shirt can sit in 9C. I was in . They both then asked for seat belt extensions. I did not see they actually needed they were not overweight. Then the man in 1D came back, spoke to them in aribic. That is when it just did not seem right. After the first time the officers came on board the man in 1D came to the back + spoke to others.

There is another report at the very end. But I can hardly read it, it does talk about how the passenger engaged the Imam in topics of world politics, and the Imam purported a view the passenger or considered to be of fundamental extremism. Well open the document and read for yourself.

"As far as the G**damn link......all you had to do was Google it. It took me all of 4 clicks to find. PC"

Thanks, the other day while I was looking I had a hard time finding anything on this.

According to the police report these guys were denied passage on the flight even before the suspicious behavior on the plane.

This is a moronic statement. If they had been denied passage prior, they wouldn't have been on the damn plane.

One of the guys had sunglassed on the news program, perhaps he really was blind, perhaps these guys really are American Muslims, perhaps they did nothing wrong.

I just don't see the "over whemling evidence of terrorist activity" something yes, obviously uncomfortability with being Muslim in America after 9/11 obviously with Americans on that flight being uncomfortable with them. I can't say that any of us are exactly in our element traveling on an airplane but the evidence here doesn't exactly point to a dry run on terror, it points to facts distortion and poor application of common sense.

The guy who wanted to upgrade to first class wanted to buy his friend a better seat.

"Allah allah allah" sounds a lot like Allah to akbar, if you are listening for Allah lol.

The guys showed up, with uh their mid-sections that they obviously didn't attain overnight, I've been working on my beer gut for years, and it's still got a ways to go. Plane seats are uncomfortable to sit it, and I don't like seatbelts in general, so if the plane isn't taxing to the runway, or even moving on the tarmac there is no reason to put them on.

This "up to something" you've mentioned is plausible as is it equally plausible or even more so that these guys were merely flying home after a religious trip, and participating in their religious customs, disruptive or not, they say not, the lady who noted it even said it "wasn't too unusual"

From the facts and evidence I see, the airline staff made the right decision in light of how the evidence lined up at the time, however this is as much a case of irrational airline hysteria as anything else. If these guys had been boarding a greyhound bus instead of an airplane nobody would have thought twice about any of this because there is nothing to run wild with.

If it was logical for a second for anyone to conclude that Al Qaeda or anyone who would want to do us harm would want to draw attention to themselves at both the gate and on board the plane, so as to have themselves removed or the plot spoiled thats contradictory and silly. Have a political argument isn't a crime. Being a Muslim and flying on a plane isn't a crime. Being suspicious isn't a crime either.

Nothing was found either in their statements, their luggage, their history, what the hell do you want, if this kind of anxiety keeps you up at night. Talk to you dr. about getting something to sleep. I'd fly with these guys anytime.

What's wrong here wasn't these guys flying but your lack of dismissing the situation as a misunderstanding or even creepy behavior. "Were up to something" yet what exactly is that supposed to mean? I see neither the airlines, or the airport police, federal screeners, FBI, Dept or Homeland security, as a direct result of this incident reducing security measures. If anything the measures will only increase and the measures already in place, reasoning for them reinforced given the current world climate of terrorism and airplanes.

But thats not what this incident was, more and more it's becoming clear that this was pure and simple hysteria. If you want to live your life, with the freedom we have and hold dear, if you want to live it afraid of everything and everybody that's different, suspicious, go ahead. If you want to call me nieve, of tell me I'm not intelligent, or rip down my point of view in favor of your own, do as you please, this is probably the last time I post on JU anyway.

But it's pretty clear this wasn't a terrorist action, dry run, unlikely as any dry run would want to proceed under the radar, political statement maybe, but also unlikely given the statements they made on television about how perposterous and ridiclious this situation was, certainly it's about as ridiclious as locking up Japanese Americans during WW2 without cause.

I'll applaude the airlines for doing the right thing and verifying and allowing the police to conduct an investigation rather then just bowing to political correctness and just allowing the flight to fly. But I'll also give the American Public in general a failing grade in being subjective enough in the matter. The only trigger in this situation was running up a bill of suspicions and then also being Muslim or of Middle Eastern descent. As the authorities in the matter concluded correctly, those elements, do not a crime, make.

One of the guys had sunglassed on the news program, perhaps he really was blind, perhaps these guys really are American Muslims, perhaps they did nothing wrong.

I just don't see the "over whemling evidence of terrorist activity" something yes, obviously uncomfortability with being Muslim in America after 9/11 obviously with Americans on that flight being uncomfortable with them. I can't say that any of us are exactly in our element traveling on an airplane but the evidence here doesn't exactly point to a dry run on terror, it points to facts distortion and poor application of common sense.

The guy who wanted to upgrade to first class wanted to buy his friend a better seat.

"Allah allah allah" sounds a lot like Allah to akbar, if you are listening for Allah lol.

The guys showed up, with uh their mid-sections that they obviously didn't attain overnight, I've been working on my beer gut for years, and it's still got a ways to go. Plane seats are uncomfortable to sit it, and I don't like seatbelts in general, so if the plane isn't taxing to the runway, or even moving on the tarmac there is no reason to put them on.

This "up to something" you've mentioned is plausible as is it equally plausible or even more so that these guys were merely flying home after a religious trip, and participating in their religious customs, disruptive or not, they say not, the lady who noted it even said it "wasn't too unusual"

From the facts and evidence I see, the airline staff made the right decision in light of how the evidence lined up at the time, however this is as much a case of irrational airline hysteria as anything else. If these guys had been boarding a greyhound bus instead of an airplane nobody would have thought twice about any of this because there is nothing to run wild with.

If it was logical for a second for anyone to conclude that Al Qaeda or anyone who would want to do us harm would want to draw attention to themselves at both the gate and on board the plane, so as to have themselves removed or the plot spoiled thats contradictory and silly. Have a political argument isn't a crime. Being a Muslim and flying on a plane isn't a crime. Being suspicious isn't a crime either.

Nothing was found either in their statements, their luggage, their history, what the hell do you want, if this kind of anxiety keeps you up at night. Talk to you dr. about getting something to sleep. I'd fly with these guys anytime.

What's wrong here wasn't these guys flying but your lack of dismissing the situation as a misunderstanding or even creepy behavior. "Were up to something" yet what exactly is that supposed to mean? I see neither the airlines, or the airport police, federal screeners, FBI, Dept or Homeland security, as a direct result of this incident reducing security measures. If anything the measures will only increase and the measures already in place, reasoning for them reinforced given the current world climate of terrorism and airplanes.

But thats not what this incident was, more and more it's becoming clear that this was pure and simple hysteria. If you want to live your life, with the freedom we have and hold dear, if you want to live it afraid of everything and everybody that's different, suspicious, go ahead. If you want to call me nieve, of tell me I'm not intelligent, or rip down my point of view in favor of your own, do as you please, this is probably the last time I post on JU anyway.

But it's pretty clear this wasn't a terrorist action, dry run, unlikely as any dry run would want to proceed under the radar, political statement maybe, but also unlikely given the statements they made on television about how perposterous and ridiclious this situation was, certainly it's about as ridiclious as locking up Japanese Americans during WW2 without cause.

I'll applaude the airlines for doing the right thing and verifying and allowing the police to conduct an investigation rather then just bowing to political correctness and just allowing the flight to fly. But I'll also give the American Public in general a failing grade in being subjective enough in the matter. The only trigger in this situation was running up a bill of suspicions and then also being Muslim or of Middle Eastern descent. As the authorities in the matter concluded correctly, those elements, do not a crime, make.

Sorry about the double post, would remove but unable.

According to the police report these guys were denied passage on the flight even before the suspicious behavior on the plane.
"This is a moronic statement. If they had been denied passage prior, they wouldn't have been on the damn plane."

You are correct, I'm a moron, I typed it incorrectly and then didn't re-read it to make sure it read correct. Let me fix it. According to the police report, these guys were to be denied passage on the flight even before the suspicious behavior on the place because of the suspicious activites in the terminal i.e. praying, and asking to upgrade their flight seat, and tearing up a piece of paper and discarding it.

Definetly suspicious sh*t.

"due to suspicious activity that another passenger witnessed prior to boarding the flight."

Was the exact quote in the police report. I apologize for being a moron, jerk.

I want to introduce a hypothetical without being called a strawman or apologist or activist, just for some rhetorical thought, please don't ask me to defend this because again it's just a hypothetical...

But what could be more troubling is that if the combination of activities here, save the praying outloud, which by the way is how Muslims do it, were to be observed by someone who was not Muslim, not wearing garb, just a little weird looking or even straight looking, business suit etc...

tearing up papers in the terminal,
asking to upgrade his seat,
asking for a seatbelt extender but not buckling up before take-off,
requesting to switch seats,
critizing the war in Iraq with another flight passenger while waiting for an extended time on the tarmac,
getting up three times during a flight to talk to another passenger who was flying with them,

A white guy wearing a denim jacket doing all these things might not be reported yet they could equally be as possible of being a terrorist as any Muslim. If you guys will recall the DC sniper shooting and the color of the "box truck", I don't even need to say it, but I would wager 90% of Americans could recall the color of box truck being looked for... I'm not trying to bring a white/black/middle eastern color or color debate in here at all, what I am saying is if you are looking for a duck in a pond, or a white box truck in traffic, or a Muslim dressed in the garb on a plane, and either of the subjects is there, then you tend to focus in on them.

The next attack should, one occur, will probably be perpertrated by another camoflagued threat at a weakly defended target. To suggest that the possibility of anything occuring on a plane such as a hijacking is highly unlikely. I mean I'd say the odds at this point of a hi-jacking are of an American civillian jet to be less then that of being stuck by lightning. For terrorism attacks to succeed they have to overcome all the barriers that are in place to prevent them. In the area of airport security it is quite obvious there is no longer a credible threat.

Now terror can also succeed if you create it yourself based on illogical fears which is exactly what has happened. If you can't live a life not cowering in fear, and without soiling yourself sitting next to someone who isn't exactly like you but that has just as much right and reason to be there then thats too bad.

As for the Imams' bringing a lawsuit of discrmination against them, I believe yet I have seen no evidence or legal filling, that the lawsuit it not targeted against the airline for the initial de-planing which is the airlines' right and responsibility. They are legally as well as ethically obligated to deplane and not allow boarding of any passenger who constitutes a real or perceived danger to any passenger or the plane itself. We can agree on that correct? However, the next day, after the FBI/local cops/Secret Service, United States Marshall's Office, not only questioned their motives and means, but checked their history, and found nothing. Read the official police report statement.

"All subjects were subsequently released without charge from the Police Operations Center."

They were, even after being cleared of any criminal action, and any form of wrongdoing what so ever, not even to be charged with disorderly conduct for having to have had the police called to remove them, even after all of this, the airline would not allow them to fly. So they are allowed to sue. Is it extortion? Maybe that remains to be seen, unless the airline can prove they still constitute a threat to the airline, passengers, or plane after such time that they were released from the custody of the authorities.

My opinion on the airlines decision, is that the first decision to check out the situation was correct, but the second decision to prevent their return home was wrong. They have as much right as anyone else to be compensated for the wrongs. If you don't agree with me thats fine, not like either of us weighing in makes a difference anyway.

If you don't constitute a threat on either day, but one day you are allowed to fly and booked and sold a ticket, and the next day you are not, that is definetly discrimination.

I apologize for being a moron, jerk.

Don't apologize. You can't help it if you're a moron, asshat,

No problem but you can't continue to hide behind fear forever, and being irrational about this and treating the people who would sooner see our country living beyond the fear, moronic and asshats, you can do better and you should.

This is fear, this is irrational, and the case where the airline refused to board these guys after they had been cleared by the agencies and authorities is discrmination.

This is a country that was founded on the idea of everybody living under the same law and same standards and following the same rules. We've never been perfect on that and that's ok, if you make the effort, usually it's been three steps forward one or two steps back. On the 11/20 the airline made the right move deplaning and checking to make sure that everything was safe for all passengers. The next day, we took a step back when the airline caved into fear.

Again these men have done nothing wrong, committed no crime, except to be Muslim and be suspicious. I have the feeling here, that everything Muslims do is suspicious in this new climate of anything goes to stop terrorism.

That's wrong.

Call me whatever names make you feel good about yourself.

It is clear I am no longer welcome here at JU, and neither is the voice of reason so rather then debate or antagonize anyone here further I bid you farewell for now. I want to wish you all a very Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and Happy Holidays.



It's been fun posting but I've got to move on.

Call me whatever names make you feel good about yourself.

If you don't want to be called names, don't call people names. Don't let the door hit you where the Good Lord split you.

It is clear I am no longer welcome here at JU

Dan, you make yourself unwelcome. To my knowlege, which is quite limited in this respect, that nobody, including Draginol has blacklisted you. So if you feel you have embaressed yourself to the point you feel that you need to leave JU; well, maybe you need to rethink the way you post here.

Then you can welcome yourself back, as you have unwelcomed yourself out.

Nobody is asking you to leave, it's your choice.