admission that the AI can't really hack an open movement system

I read Brad to be making more of a declaration than an admission. He's never seemed to make a "game" of hiding what his AI code can handle, even though it appears to have taken a long time for him to put these specifics into the "speed cheese" discussion.

That said, I was just avoiding housework and thinking that I'd really like to see stargate tech in GCII for a bunch of aesthetic and strategic reasons. I hadn't even considered the possibility that stargates (new tech tree & class of starbase?) could help resolve the AI limits re ship speed problem. Here's hoping there's still lots of wiggle room in the DA dev cycle...

Come to think of it...

Why would the races get rid of stargates just because humans gave everybody hyperdrive?

As for "open admission"... Mumble, you're dangerously close to becoming a target of mine. Antagonizing the developers because they want to reduce your speed by 90% is not the way to negotiate. Brad has been working on this game since you were a young man, Grandpa Simpson.

Stargates might be a very interesting concept to explore if speeds will be dramatically reduced. Speed gets ships from point A to point B. Once combat begins, speed is irrelevant.

If reducing speed makes the AI smarter and encourages players to stock up on weapons instead of engines, I'm open to the idea.

If 6 to 8 is the speed, then you may as well just put in stargate type of travel that only allows movement from system to system. This is the kind of movement that the AI can deal with. Restricting speed to this ludicrous value on a map that's 240 parsec's across is an admission that the AI can't really hack an open movement system.

Well stated.

A concern with a closed movement system would be stacking ships next to every gate. Also, it kills the fun factor. Keeping a fleet of constructors a few steps ahead of an enemy fleet is an earned advantage that cannot be overstated. While I'm open to the idea of restricted movement, I wonder why the engine branch is so long if the developers had a problem with speed.

Speed wouldn't be such cheese if ships had an INTERCEPT behavior along with guard, explore, etc. Intercept, of course, would mean "intercept and destroy."

Why would the races get rid of stargates just because humans gave everybody hyperdrive?

If I recall the GCII story rightly, the gates were disassembled for economic reasons. They had more value as raw material for new warp ships than they did as a fixed, energy-intensive transit system. More of that annoying story stuff that I like so much

This could still makes sense for the full early and even middle games, but stargate tech could make the latter parts of very long games much more interesting. You don't have to switch to a "closed" movement system--I think it would be a swell addition presenting a host of strategy choices re both your management focus on transportation and how you focus your attack power in a war.

As for "open admission"... Mumble, you're dangerously close to becoming a target of mine. Antagonizing the developers because they want to reduce your speed by 90% is not the way to negotiate.

In point of fact, one of GC's claim to fame was the open movement system. This was heralded as a great leap forward in gaming AI. And yes, I would consider such a drastic reduction in speed an admission that the open movement system has been a failure. I actually don't want to antagonize the developer's because I highly respect them, but that isn't going to stop me from expressing my opinion.

You, I'm not so concerned about. I'd as soon be friends, and have pretty much bent over backwards at every opportunity in the attempt, but if you want to make me your target, be my guest. My preference would be to get along. I know you object to my lecturing you, but I'm only trying to get you to be a better citizen of the GC2 community. I'm sure if we took a poll, you'd be considered the biggest asshole on the forum. It's just that occasionally I see redeeming qualities in you, perhaps I'm the fool for doing so.

As far as saying "reduce *my* speed by 90%", you seem to be implying that I wouldn't be capable of winning without it. I can guarantee you that is absolutely not the case. This is why we need multi-player in this game. This would be a perfect reason to have a "grudge" match to prove a point. I think it would be fun and interesting for the whole community.

Anyway, I hold no grudge here and I'd as soon you didn't either, however, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

I think you missed this thread Sam0t -
https://forums.galciv2.com/?forumid=345&aid=136288#1069747

I'm sure if we took a poll, you'd be considered the biggest asshole on the forum.

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Restricting speed to this ludicrous value on a map that's 240 parsec's across is an admission that the AI can't really hack an open movement system.

As for "open admission"... Mumble, you're dangerously close to becoming a target of mine.

Well wheel, maybe it takes less to be my target.

I'm sorry, but as smart as you are, that was the most ignorant thing to say period. Restricting the speed to that "ludicrous" value is an open admission that people don't keep up with the hardware race.

I.E. You if I recall properly.

The algorithm itself, as has been explained, has to look at all possible ship movements to make a decision. Although workload intensive, it is an algorithm that ensures you will get the best decisions by the AI.

More speed = more movements to an exponential degree = exponential work the computer must do to calculate.

If you're going to cry about a hard-coded cap for speed, at least update your system so it's no longer running on a Pentium 3 processor or whatever crap you're using.

Speed caps proportional to galaxy size, although convenient for players, does not reflect realism in any way, shape or form. If I have to drive from PA to CA does that mean the cops are gonna allow me to do 90? Because there is more distance to cover my ships magically can go faster? WTH is the logic there? where? where?

To all people who don't like the idea of speed capping:
GET A REAL COMPUTER AND NOT SOME 5 YEAR OLD PIECE OF CRAP THAT IS LESS POWERFUL THAN AN XBOX 360! THEN WE CAN RAISE THE SPEED CAP!


P.S. A speed cap does have logic to it, it's this concept in physics called terminal velocity.

Its a game with evil space monkeys on killing spree! Where does "realism" fit the picture? Sorry could not help myself commenting this

Its a game with evil space monkeys on killing spree! Where does "realism" fit the picture?

Well, aside from being from space, the human race is nothing but a bunch of evil monkeys on a killing spree

GET A REAL COMPUTER AND NOT SOME 5 YEAR OLD PIECE OF CRAP

Turn the volume down. No need to shout.

Get a real computer and not some 5 year old piece of crap

Good. That's better. It's nice to see that Wheel would at least have some competition if we did take that poll.

It's certainly not the capabilities of my PC that define the limit of the AI's computational abilities. I'm pretty sure that Brad isn't sitting on some enhanced movement algorithms but is afraid to introduce them into the game because he doesn't want to overwhelm my POS.

If that's the case then he can raise the speed back because I should have my Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 / GeForce7900GS PC by the end of the week. But somehow I don't think that will make Brad change his mind.

The point I made was that reduction in speed to the level of 6-8 was essentially an admission that the AI cannot deal with an open movement system. There were no tears involved on my part and I stand behind that statement. As I said elsewhere, the people that can beat the suicidal AI will still be able to beat the suicidal AI regardless of any speed nerfing, but as far as I can tell, you aren't among them.

It's certainly not the capabilities of my PC that define the limit of the AI's computational abilities.

You're an idiot. In several threads, developers have flat out said this is the case. In fact, it would make no sense that the algorithm would stop working on a software level at a certain number. No sense at all.

It's nice to see that Wheel would at least have some competition if we did take that poll.

Wheel is MY competition. Get it straight pal. I am the champion @$$|-|013.

As I said elsewhere, the people that can beat the suicidal AI will still be able to beat the suicidal AI regardless of any speed nerfing, but as far as I can tell, you aren't among them.

Oh right, cuz i don't post metaverse games... I won't even dignify that with a response, since it is essentially the equivalent of typing "rank" in counterstrike when you get knifed to make yourself feel better.

Your game skillz have nothing to do with your understanding of how the game works behind scenes, how AI works, or hardware requirements of AI algorithms. And if you really think AI isn't processor intensive, then maybe you don't realize how many decisions your brain takes into account on every single move. Even repeated redundant ones that seem obvious, still require the same calculation time to a computer.

If that's the case then he can raise the speed back because I should have my Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 / GeForce7900GS PC by the end of the week. But somehow I don't think that will make Brad change his mind.

It would have the potential to be raised if this was the case across the board, but not raised back completely. To do calculations for 80 move ships, you'd probably need one of the new AMD quad cores and about 8 gigs of very low CAS latency memory (assuming the AI algorithm is done concurrently, i.e. multi-threaded). By the way, your graphics card has nothing to do with this capability.

And by the way
I WILL USE MY CAPS LOCK HOWEVER I LIKE KTHNX NUBBLET BAI BAI OMG ALL CAPS FLIP OUT!!!!!11111ONE11!!!112

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Yeah Evil, I know he's your bud. I actually want and mostly try to like the guy, but at some point if the shoe fits, then wear it.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with being an asshole. We're all one from time to time, it's just that you don't need to be one *all* the time. You can even take it as a badge of honor. At least if you're going to be one, be the best damn one you can be.

maybe you don't realize how many decisions your brain takes into account on every single move

Perhaps I don't. But I do realize how few decisions *your* brain takes into account before hitting the "Post Comment" button.

Wheel is MY competition. Get it straight pal. I am the champion @$$|-|013.

I stand corrected. No doubt you're right, if only in this instance.

You're an idiot

I got a 1600 on my SAT's and that was before the test was devalued (twice). I also have a Phd in Electrical Engineering from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. It's a little school we have here in Cambridge, MA. Perhaps you've heard of it.

BTW what are your credentials?

I took what Brad explained about the AI as, no current hardware can handle the AI trying to calculate a strtegy based on 80 move probablilities. So whether you have a top of the line processor or a two year old one(me  ), your still not going to get an AI that can counteract high move count ships in a decent time frame. Sure , if everyone had a topline machine the cap could be raised slightly, but nowhere near to the point of probably even countering 40 move ships effectively. One day PCs will be powerful enough to handle such things, just not yet.

Perhaps I don't. But I do realize how few decisions *your* brain takes into account before hitting the "Post Comment" button.

while(!Mumblefratz.istalkingabout(GCII))
{
System.out.println("ROFLCOPTER");
}

I got a 1600 on my SAT's and that was before the test was devalued (twice). I also have a Phd in Electrical Engineering from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. It's a little school we have here in Cambridge, MA. Perhaps you've heard of it. BTW what are your credentials?

Dag, I'm a meager 1450 SAT boi cuz i dun don't speka da engrish properli (800 math ftw).
I'm a software engineering major, tho i've yet to earn any degree ( 7 year accel bs/Phd) at this little place called Drexel University.

I declined after my acceptance to MIT. I'd rather be a star shining bright in a dark sky. Besides, the co-op program is awesome. I get school credit for paid work (which is actually learning useful things instead of theory that never gets applied in the real world).

Also chose not to go to Westpoint after acceptance and nomination if that matters.

Maybe I'll go to an Ivy League school to get my Phd in computer science... but i doubt I'll even bother. Working is way more fun (i get to play on forums all day)!

And... please Mr. Dr. sir, take note of your area of degree before you act like it applies to the situation. An idiot, to me, is someone who talks about a subject assuming he has an area of knowledge he clearly does not.

You resorted to attacks on a personal level first, which clearly indicates that you aim not to make a point about the game, but to be considered the smarterestedly soundizing man everer.

"It is better to stay quiet and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" - anonymous

You resorted to attacks on a personal level first, which clearly indicates that you aim not to make a point about the game, but to be considered the smarterestedly soundizing man everer.

I beg to differ about who resorted to personal attacks first. In each case it was Wheel and then you that drew first blood. I merely responded in kind. As far as the "smarterestedly soundizing man everer" you're welcomed to your own opinion.

Yeah Evil, I know he's your bud.

My response was more or less dismay at being left out  But then I jest. Just wasn't expecting to see something like that Mumblefratz. On a different note, congrats on the new computer. As I posted in the graphics thread, I bought a GeForce 7600 GT on Saturday and am quite pleased at the results. I was looking for the 7900 series but seems to be special order around here. Regardless, NVIDIA offers a ninety day upgrade program where you only pay the difference in price to step up. Not bad if you ask me, but I think I'll stick with what I have.  

Here's a poll:

Is Mumble really a diplomat?

As "Grandpa Simpson" doesn't equate to "asshole" AT ALL, it's amusing to watch your meltdown, Mumble.

I said "you risk becoming my target" Do you think I'd actually warn you if you were really going to become the object of my random insults?

Let's review the meltdown:

have pretty much bent over backwards at every opportunity in the attempt,

Why? Because you're the self-appointed welcoming committee? Perhaps the self-appointed glue that binds our holy Children of the Hyperdrive flock?

I know you object to my lecturing

Say what?! Where did that come from?

but I'm only trying to get you to be a better citizen of the GC2 community...It's just that occasionally I see redeeming qualities in you, perhaps I'm the fool for doing so...you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Wow. That's borderline headcase speech. FYI: the only thing I need to determine my quality of citizenship is my posting history. As long as I'm contributing good ideas, people will notice and I'll happily stay aligned with evil.

I'm sure if we took a poll, you'd be considered the biggest asshole on the forum.

You're the front runner after your comments in this thread. If you are itching to be a combative member, that's ok. Just inform kryo that you want citizen status and join the rest of us in the mosh pit.

Several folks owe some Hail Caris said while reading the Flaming Wastes Time thread.

I'll do mine promptly after spewing some bile at the hardware snobs who allow their spending decisions to be driven by the bloodsucking stock market-driven swine who's only real love of PC technology is its rhetorical power on the NASDAQ. The assumption that bleeding-edge hardware is where any serious gamer needs to be is a corollary to extreme capitalist devotion to growth for its own sake. Another name for growth for its own sake is *cancer*.

The public side of my Hail Cari is to again praise Stardock for building a game that runs *very* well on systems that do not quite hit the minimum specs. And to beg everyone to calm the frak down and keep up the reasonable parts of this speed discussion.

Well wheel, maybe it takes less to be my target.

I'm sorry, but as smart as you are, that was the most ignorant thing to say period. Restricting the speed to that "ludicrous" value is an open admission that people don't keep up with the hardware race.

I wasn't disagreeing with the problems of open movement. I disagreed with the tone. The developers have never lied about the AI limitations making Mumble's phrase "open admission" to be singularly moronic.

Check here and here for more detail. I'm giving Stardock the benefit of the doubt that there is a possibility that speed could be modified without killing the fun of the game. Primarily power cores and diminishing returns on the number of engines in relation to speed.

I agree that forcing up the minimum specs is better than code changes but if the AI is smarter by restraining the pace that human players gain ship speed, maybe it can work. While it's not really our problem, Stardock sells more copies by keeping the specs down.

My view is simply that we can't tell the developers to do anything if they decide on going in a specific direction. We can only decide to attempt to nudge the development in a certain direction or not buy DA.

I agree that forcing up the minimum specs is better than code changes but if the AI is smarter by restraining the pace that human players gain ship speed, maybe it can work. While it's not really our problem, Stardock sells more copies by keeping the specs down.

Right on target.

I'm just saying that people who complain about things that are limited to their own hardware purchases are shooting themselves in the foot.

I, on the other hand, have the right to whine and cry about the cap since my hardware is more capable of handling an increased AI adjustment. But I don't, because Stardock has some money to make. Plus, it would make playing a gigantic map feel... gigantic

And i apologize if you thought my comments were directed at you wheel... i'll be a jerk to you when i find you being an @$$|-|013 for unjustified reasons... but so far, i would have reacted same in every post i've read of yours... well maybe not the same, i tend to go a little... oh hell... a lot more overboard