Are people happy to lose a war? » Forum Post by Island Dog

Yeah, we don't want to make our enemies mad.

Why did they begin to hate America?
They didn't hate you in 1900 or 1924.

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War against so-called radical islam.

So, do you differentiate between "radical islam," and Islam? Do you wish for Islam to be whiped out?

Yeah, we don't want to make our enemies mad.

What I dont want to to is drag this goddamn war on and on and on. If we want to win it, then there is some shit we should start doing, and shit we should stop doing.

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Island Dog

Join Date 06/2003

+1051

So, do you differentiate between "radical islam," and Islam? Do you wish for Islam to be whiped out?

There's not much difference, if any at all. Islam needs to be reformed, or taken care of one way or antoher.

What I dont want to to is drag this goddamn war on and on and on. If we want to win it, then there is some shit we should start doing, and shit we should stop doing.

I agree, but probably for different reasons. We are fighting a politicall correct war where certain peopel in our own country want terrorists to have the same rights as American citizens.

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There's not much difference, if any at all. Islam needs to be reformed, or taken care of one way or antoher.

Well, we can agree to disagree. Because I disagree, there is a big difference.

Ya know something I don't get, is that people like you have a logic that says that cause there are radical terrorists who blow people up, etc....it should be annihilated, but you shrug off what things christianity, and other faiths have done. Granted, the amout is different....but, they did it....that's the point you folks make when you bash Islam.

I agree, but probably for different reasons. We are fighting a politicall correct war where certain peopel in our own country want terrorists to have the same rights as American citizens.

I would be one who wants them to have the same rights, because they are human. I don't care if they have done what they have done, they're human and should be treated with respect.

Remember, "An eye for an eye makes the world go blind."

Peace, ~Lucas

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First we need to stop being politically correct and call this war for what it is.

Please, enlighten me.

I already answered this:

I think we have enough nukes in our subs to turn them into a glass parking lot.

And to answer your earlier question.....Hell YES! If that's what it takes! I told you they should have green-lighted the "total war" concept from the start!

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~DrM~

First off, that was directed at IslandDog. I already commented/replied to yours.

Secondly, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Nice (attempted) joust/debate, best in life.

Peace, ~Lucas

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kingbee

Join Date 04/2004

+42

You are trying to change the topic by wanting me to post a quote of a democrat jumping up and down with balloons hoping the U.S. will lose.

you're the one wanting to wiggle out of sdmitting you can't substantiate the ridiculous claim you made in the process of presenting this topic (your title pretty much defines the topic).

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This is where I disagree. They (the soldiers fighting in iraq) did their duty, under the impression that we were in Iraq for WMDs. Granted, we've found bits here and there of ricin-mustard gas, etc... However, the impression that Bush gave everyone, was false. Did he lie? I don't know.

Aa a former active duty Marine I can say with some experience that it does not matter what the reason is that we are sent to war. Our duty is to do what the president tells us to. It was not under any impression it was a job. When we take the oath it says in part I solemnly swear to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States of America against all enemies foreign and domestic, to obey the orders of the President and all officers appointed over me. It says nothing about reasons for these orders or ideals of liberals. As long as the orders are lawful we do it. It is nothing personal the military is in the business of killing people and breaking things. I know it sounds cold hearted and mean but it is a business. One we don’t want to do at any time but if that is what the order is then we do it.

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It may be time to return to making military service a REQUIREMENT! It is TOO easy for political leaders send someone else children into harms way.

---ColGene

You know....I saw this, and I just had to laugh. One of the things that the anti-war demonstrators in the Vietnam Era found most contemptible was how the "elite" got their kids out of the Draft and military service, at the expense of the "lower" classes...uuummm....like Bush, Gene? And it would work better now, you think? Let's see...we now have an all-volunteer military of people who willingly signed on the dotted line, vs. your proposed military of people dragged away from home and hearth, thrown a gun and uniform, and tossed into something they never wanted. Charles Rangel is an idiot.....or not....a Draft would be one of the last steps toward truly Vietnamizing this war, and that's what he wants.

Why did they begin to hate America?
They didn't hate you in 1900 or 1924.

---kdgergo

Well, this was probably because we weren't "anybody" yet.....that wouldn't happen until after WW2, when the whole world had pretty much been singed. It was only us prideful, arrogant Americans---who never did anything to help anybody, mind you---left to pump billions of dollars we didn't really have into rebuilding so much of the world. That's when it started.

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Island Dog

Join Date 06/2003

+1051

Ya know something I don't get, is that people like you have a logic that says that cause there are radical terrorists who blow people up, etc....it should be annihilated, but you shrug off what things christianity, and other faiths have done. Granted, the amout is different....but, they did it....that's the point you folks make when you bash Islam.

Christians have done nothing in recent times that equals what islamists have done. Blow up schools, blow up nightclubs, the list goes on and on. You can't even criticize islam without the fear of literally having your head cut off. Islamists can protest cartoons being published, but can't condem terrorist attacks done in their "name".

Why is it people like you can't see that islam is a danger? I don't believe every single islamist is a terrorists, but the ones who don't actually commit the acts sure do a great job at turning a blind eye to it.

I would be one who wants them to have the same rights, because they are human. I don't care if they have done what they have done, they're human and should be treated with respect.

I'm sorry but that is just stupid. Terrorists DO NOT have or deserve the same constitutional rights as an American citizen. Why are people like you so concerned about the same people that would cut your head off?

ou're the one wanting to wiggle out of sdmitting you can't substantiate the ridiculous claim you made in the process of presenting this topic (your title pretty much defines the topic).

I'm not trying to "wiggle" out of anything. I stand by my original question in this article. I asked "are some people happy or content on losing this war"? I read the statements by people who want to immediately pull out of Iraq not caring of the consequences, that is content on losing.

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I'm sorry but that is just stupid. Terrorists DO NOT have or deserve the same constitutional rights as an American citizen. Why are people like you so concerned about the same people that would cut your head off?

Did I ever say they had the same 'constitutional rights?' No, I said they, as human beings, have the same rights. I.e. to be treated humanely. Such as under the UN human rights, the geneva convention, etc...

Tell me, would you like to be torchered, and treated inhumanely?

I don't give a flying f*#k about them being "enemy combatants," or the like.

They are human, I am human. As far as i am concerned, as long as i am living, as long as i have even an ounce of compassion...of...humanity....i will always feel this way, and believe in humane treatment, rights, etc...for every human being.

i.e. natural rights, etc... (RE: Natural Right )

Christians have done nothing in recent times that equals what islamists have done. Blow up schools, blow up nightclubs, the list goes on and on. You can't even criticize islam without the fear of literally having your head cut off. Islamists can protest cartoons being published, but can't condem terrorist attacks done in their "name".

Ah, but they have done 'something.' There were the crusades. They killed in the name of God, which...radical islamic terrorists have done. So, if those radical islamic terrorists are bad...then will you admit that Christianity was bad at that time, when they did the very same?

Maybe because they know that 'if' they do, they'll be next in line for death? Have you ever lived in constant fear?

Why is it people like you can't see that islam is a danger? I don't believe every single islamist is a terrorists, but the ones who don't actually commit the acts sure do a great job at turning a blind eye to it.

RADICAL Islam is a danger. Any radical form of anything is a danger.

Aa a former active duty Marine I can say with some experience that it does not matter what the reason is that we are sent to war. Our duty is to do what the president tells us to. It was not under any impression it was a job. When we take the oath it says in part I solemnly swear to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States of America against all enemies foreign and domestic, to obey the orders of the President and all officers appointed over me. It says nothing about reasons for these orders or ideals of liberals. As long as the orders are lawful we do it. It is nothing personal the military is in the business of killing people and breaking things. I know it sounds cold hearted and mean but it is a business. One we don’t want to do at any time but if that is what the order is then we do it.

Still, it doesn't deny the fact that they went in under a false impression.

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Island Dog

Join Date 06/2003

+1051

Did I ever say they had the same 'constitutional rights?' No, I said they, as human beings, have the same rights. I.e. to be treated humanely. Such as under the UN human rights, the geneva convention, etc...

These terrorists have food, medical care, they can practice their "religion", and have a great view of the beach. They have plenty of rights.

Tell me, would you like to be torchered, and treated inhumanely?

Are you just as concerned about Americans that are detained by terrorists. I don't see many protests from you guys about that.

And what torture are you speaking of?

They are human, I am human. As far as i am concerned, as long as i am living, as long as i have even an ounce of compassion...of...humanity....i will always feel this way, and believe in humane treatment, rights, etc...for every human being.

They have no compassion towards you or your fellow Americans. Tell them how you have compassion for them while they are cutting your head off.

Ah, but they have done 'something.' There were the crusades. They killed in the name of God, which...radical islamic terrorists have done. So, if those radical islamic terrorists are bad...then will you admit that Christianity was bad at that time, when they did the very same?

First of all I said recent times. I'm not here to defend Christianity at all. If you are so willing to call out the crusades then why are you defending islam for? It is a violent religion, why can't you guys just admit that and stop worrying about offending someone?

RADICAL Islam is a danger. Any radical form of anything is a danger.

Radical islam and the moderates who support it, or turn a blind eye to it. When is the last time you saw a big protest of the moderates condeming terrorism?

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They have no compassion towards you or your fellow Americans. Tell them how you have compassion for them while they are cutting your head off.

And?

I'd rather live a good life, with peace, happiness, etc....than live in hate. I.e. Love thy neighbor, or "Treat each other as you would have them treat you."

These terrorists have food, medical care, they can practice their "religion", and have a great view of the beach. They have plenty of rights.

Do they have representation? Are they charged, or are they kept there w/o being charged?

Are you just as concerned about Americans that are detained by terrorists. I don't see many protests from you guys about that.
And what torture are you speaking of?

Yes I am.

First of all I said recent times. I'm not here to defend Christianity at all. If you are so willing to call out the crusades then why are you defending islam for? It is a violent religion, why can't you guys just admit that and stop worrying about offending someone?

Because...

1) I defend moderat Islam. The type that doesn't do what the terrorists do.

2) I see the best in everything, and deep down...i know that I Islam *is*, at it's core....peaceful.

3) Does it ever occur to you, that this how we actually believe...and that we're not trying to be PC? Obviously not, according to folks like you....

Radical islam and the moderates who support it, or turn a blind eye to it. When is the last time you saw a big protest of the moderates condeming terrorism?

Didn't you see my comment concerning living in fear? I mean, think along the lines of George Orwell's 1984 (not as advanced, but the same intensity).

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Island Dog

Join Date 06/2003

+1051

I'd rather live a good life, with peace, happiness, etc....than live in hate. I.e. Love thy neighbor, or "Treat each other as you would have them treat you."

Thats how I live my life, but I also am aware of the people who are out to kill Americans for their so-called religion. You need to recognize who our enemies are.

Do they have representation? Are they charged, or are they kept there w/o being charged?

Last I read they are going to military tribunals. The left wants them to have American trial lawyers and trials in public courts, that is just stupid.

Because...

1) I defend moderat Islam. The type that doesn't do what the terrorists do.

2) I see the best in everything, and deep down...i know that I Islam *is*, at it's core....peaceful.

3) Does it ever occur to you, that this how we actually believe...and that we're not trying to be PC? Obviously not, according to folks like you.

What moderate islam? I just asked when have you seem the moderates come out and protest and condem the acts being committed in their name....you don't. You guys love polls, what about the polls that show the moderates support terrorism. The list goes on and on.

Ok Lucas, since you think islam is so peaceful. Would you go to an islamic country and hold up a sign that says "no to islam"? If it was a peaceful religion you wouldn't get your head cut off.

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Ok Lucas, since you think islam is so peaceful. Would you go to an islamic country and hold up a sign that says "no to islam"? If it was a peaceful religion you wouldn't get your head cut off.

If I had a reason, yes. However, I don't because I don't believe "no to Islam."

Thats how I live my life, but I also am aware of the people who are out to kill Americans for their so-called religion. You need to recognize who our enemies are.

"Our" enemies? I have not enemies, no matter what they want to do to me...i don't consider them enemies.

What moderate islam? I just asked when have you seem the moderates come out and protest and condem the acts being committed in their name....you don't. You guys love polls, what about the polls that show the moderates support terrorism. The list goes on and on.

1) I replied with the following:

Didn't you see my comment concerning living in fear? I mean, think along the lines of George Orwell's 1984 (not as advanced, but the same intensity).

2) No, I dont like polls. I think they're a waste of time, and I don't use them because i think they're full of shit.

3) Moderate Islam, like the ones living in America, Britain, France?

Last I read they are going to military tribunals. The left wants them to have American trial lawyers and trials in public courts, that is just stupid.

Good, at least they are getting representation, right?

Why is it stupid?

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Last I read they are going to military tribunals. The left wants them to have American trial lawyers and trials in public courts, that is just stupid.

Good, at least they are getting representation, right?

Why is it stupid?

Why? So the lawyers can get them completely off due to some technicality?

Thats how I live my life, but I also am aware of the people who are out to kill Americans for their so-called religion. You need to recognize who our enemies are.

"Our" enemies? I have not enemies, no matter what they want to do to me...i don't consider them enemies.

Are you an American? Yes? Then you better wake up and smell the coffee because "they" consider you to be their enemy.

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Are you an American? Yes? Then you better wake up and smell the coffee because "they" consider you to be their enemy.

Oh, and the French, British, Canadians, Germans, Spanish and co. aren't targetted by these extremists?

Americans are the only victims of the baddies?

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Americans are the only victims of the baddies?

Sure. It makes a great campaign slogan.

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Sure. It makes a great campaign slogan.

Ya know, that sounds like what was done during the cold war era when McCarthy-ism was going on.

Oh, and the French, British, Canadians, Germans, Spanish and co. aren't targetted by these extremists?

Americans are the only victims of the baddies?

Good point.

hy? So the lawyers can get them completely off due to some technicality?

What, so they should just be "tried," and "given their ""due"" punishment" ?

NOTE: The quotes, especially around tried, and the last bit. It was all sarcasm, because frankly...if that happens, there is no justice, only revenge.

Are you an American? Yes? Then you better wake up and smell the coffee because "they" consider you to be their enemy.

Yes, I am american, but even if they consider me an enemy, I don't consider them ones. I'm not going to spout hate, or perpetuate it. I'm sorry dr.m, but you're not going to make me budge on that issue.

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Island Dog

Join Date 06/2003

+1051

Yes, I am american, but even if they consider me an enemy, I don't consider them ones. I'm not going to spout hate, or perpetuate it. I'm sorry dr.m, but you're not going to make me budge on that issue.

Unbelievable. I hope the country never falls in control of people like this.

If I had a reason, yes. However, I don't because I don't believe "no to Islam."

Do you understand that you would most likely be killed for holding up a sign like that? Is that peaceful to you?

Good, at least they are getting representation, right?

Why is it stupid?

Just as it was explained above. Do you want trial lawyer getting an islamic terrorist off the hook because his miranda rights were not read? Your answer is probably yes.

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Island Dog

Join Date 06/2003

+1051

British muslims you say?

Some answers are provided by the most comprehensive survey to date of Muslim opinion in Britain. The results from NOP Research, broadcast by Channel 4-TV on August 7, are startling.

Forty-five percent say 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American and Israeli governments. This figure is more than twice as high as those who say it was not a conspiracy. Tragically, almost one in four British Muslims believe that last year's 7/7 attacks on London were justified because of British support for the U.S.-led war on terror.

When asked, "Is Britain my country or their country?" only one in four say it is. Thirty percent of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia (Islamic religious) law than under British law. According to the report, "Half of those who express a preference for living under Sharia law say that, given the choice, they would move to a country governed by those laws."

Twenty-eight percent hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state. This comports with last year's Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe that Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it.

The news is no less alarming on the question of freedom of speech. Seventy-eight percent support punishment for the people who earlier this year published cartoons featuring the Prophet Mohammed. Sixty-eight percent support the arrest and prosecution of those British people who "insult Islam." When asked if free speech should be protected, even if it offends religious groups, 62 percent of British Muslims say No, it should not.

Also concerning freedom of speech, as the NOP Research survey reports, "hardcore Islamists" constitute nine percent of the British Muslim population. A slightly more moderate group is composed of "staunch defenders of Islam." This second group comprises 29 percent of the British Muslim population. Individuals in this group aggressively defend their religion from internal and external threats, real or imagined.

The scary reality is that only three percent of British Muslims "took a consistently pro-freedom of speech line on these questions." The Muslim threat to British security is so severe that the assistant London police commissioner, Tarique Ghaffur, has called for an inquiry into the radicalization of young Muslims. Ghaffur sadly describes "a generation of angry young people vulnerable to exploitation."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml

Sixty-eight percent support the arrest and prosecution of those British people who "insult Islam."

Incredible.

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Do you understand that you would most likely be killed for holding up a sign like that? Is that peaceful to you?

Yes, and? I could just as easily be killed by protesting in china, by opposing the government in north korea.

We're (the US) certainly isn't peaceful.

Unbelievable. I hope the country never falls in control of people like this.

Whatever.

Just as it was explained above. Do you want trial lawyer getting an islamic terrorist off the hook because his miranda rights were not read? Your answer is probably yes.

If it is in accordance with the law, then so be it. We cannot let laws be broken when we hate, despie, etc...

~L

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Yes, and? I could just as easily be killed by protesting in china, by opposing the government in north korea.

We're (the US) certainly isn't peaceful.

---Lucas (Silent Poet)

Moral Equivalence. Liberal dogma. Hold up a sign here protesting the government and you'll get a scholarship to UC Berkeley.

Like all "Progressives", you miss the whole point of the very freedoms you enjoy. The very freedoms too many of you actively employ in a cynical effort to undermine and destroy them.
Why do this?
So the evil, Capitalist, Imperialist US of A can be removed.

Why? So the "playing field" can be levelled for other nations.

Why? To usher in a new era of worldwide prosperity, freedom and peace.

Why? With America gone, the Lion will lie down with the Lamb, the skies will clear, and the nations of the world will come together in mutual peace, love, happiness and brotherhood.

Heh. Okay.

Lucas, you're a good kid, and please know that I respect you for sticking to your beliefs.
But before, when I said that people like you were going to destroy this country, I meant it. It's more appropriate to say, however, that you'll just simply stand there and let this country be destroyed.
The Muslims, of course, will likely kill you where you stand, smiling vacantly with your arms open wide, welcoming them with a big ole, fat "let's-all-just-git-along" hug. But you'll still have your priciples. You won't be enjoying them anymore...but whatever.
Perhaps as you die, you'll hear their nickname for you: "useful idiot".

We're infinitely more "peaceful" than our current enemies. For example, we've had nulcear weapons for 61 years, at one time holding enough of them to have levelled the world many times over; yet, after WW2 we never used them. Not once. We came close a few times, but no. Even after the collapse of our main rival nuclear state.

Radical Islam, on the other hand, has been actively seeking nuclear weapons for a long time. I doubt they have any kind of nulcear "parity" with us in mind, however. I'm curious to see how long it takes, after Iran has a bomb, for the mushroom clouds to start sprouting.

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I'm curious to see how long it takes, after Iran has a bomb, for the mushroom clouds to start sprouting.

I'm sure if some people have their say, it'd be us nuking them first.

Lucas, you're a good kid, and please know that I respect you for sticking to your beliefs.

Thank you, I admit that that is a first.

Moral Equivalence. Liberal dogma. Hold up a sign here protesting the government and you'll get a scholarship to UC Berkeley.

Like all "Progressives", you miss the whole point of the very freedoms you enjoy. The very freedoms too many of you actively employ in a cynical effort to undermine and destroy them.
Why do this?
So the evil, Capitalist, Imperialist US of A can be removed.

Why? So the "playing field" can be levelled for other nations.

Why? To usher in a new era of worldwide prosperity, freedom and peace.

Why? With America gone, the Lion will lie down with the Lamb, the skies will clear, and the nations of the world will come together in mutual peace, love, happiness and brotherhood.

You see, this is where you mess up. You are blinded by your narrow view of what a liberal is. You just paint us all with a broad brush and be done with it, shame on you.

Just as not all conservatives are "fascist, evil, etc...." Not all liberals are as you say they are.

Tell me, how do i miss the point?

I don't find the US evil. I love the US, it's my birth nation. I do however, think it has, and can be (because we are the most powerful nation in the world, and have been for a while) arrogant, etc... Does that mean i think we should "be brought down," no. I think we should just step back, and take a second, third, fourth (or even more) looks at how we handle things, as well as why we handle them.

i.e. Instead of invading Iraq....(and i've heard little about this) why couldn't we have done something different, like perhaps wage a propaganda war? Or the like. I don't think the Bush administration used war as a last means.

~L

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RW and ID.

Here is how to debate. *shrugs*. Meh. *nods*.

Wonder where laugh and myrth are.

Oh wait! Happy and liberal are oxymorons!

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