avoid high tech buildings during intial expansion

Wait until all empire tiles full before upgrading

I recently had my best expansion game by avoid building the highest tech buildings in the game. I was able to expand faster and fill all the tiles up on all the empire planets.

The Manufacture center cost 200 but only adds +2 over factory (75), the industrial sector cost 400 and adds +6 over factory (75). But the factory only cost 75 with +10 production and has a lower tax base. Factory are easy to get tiles producing at +75.

The expansion of new planets goes too slow if trying to build a industrial sector at 400 versus 75 for factory. The advantage of the industrial sector is small +16 over +10 for fatory and not worth the extra 325 cost.

The problem is once you aquire a high tech building you can't start a new planet with a lower tech buildings. It's very hard to start a new planet with industrial sectors at 400 cost

Building to avoid early during expansion of the empire, prior to conquering other alien planets.[/B]

Diplomancy- Base embassy if fine at 60 for +15 diplomancy, the Culture Exchange at 250 for +25 is not needed early. Avoid researching advance diplomancy.

Economy-trade center at 50 for +15 is good early. Research right past banking and go directly to stock market once you are in tech researching range.

Farming-Reseach should be dictated base on planet hitting population ceiling for the most bang for the buck.

Research-Xexo research at 60 for +8 is great early. Early in game aviod Research Center for +2 extra for 100 cost and Research academy 150 cost for another +2. The 60 cost for +8 research for xeno reserch building is a bargin.

Entertainment- Multimedia at 100 cost and +10% morale is okay. I avoid the Extreme stadium 250 cost for +15 morale, Zero G sports 300 cost for +20 morale and virtual reality centers at 400 cost for +25 morale. At this point I have stock markets and convert all the mutlimedia building over to stock markets.

Stock markets give +25% economy, +10 morale, +5% influence and cost only 120 with a lower tax base. I don't build have any entertainment buildings late in game.

Once all the tiles are filled up on all your planets then upgrade the following.

Upgrade to stock markets at 120 cost as soon as possible.

Upgrade 60 cost-xeno reserch centers +8 to 200 cost-invention matrix +16 research. Avoid neutral learning centers at 300 cost for +22. These centers are NOT upgradable to discovery spheres later in game. This only applies if you pick neutral path.

Upgrade embassies 250 cost for 25% diplomancy.

Convert entertainmant tiles over to stock markets. These should be only multimedia centers at time of conversion. [B]Avoid Extreme stadiums, zero G sports and virtual reality centers.
If you have a planet with morale problem on planet then consider adding more stock markets for the same effect, 3 stock exhanges at 360 total cost ( 3x120each)gives you +30 moral, +75 economic and +15 influence. Virtual reality center at 400 cost gives +25% morale. These cost more (+400 versus +360) and produce less morale than stock exchanges. But you need extra 2 tiles for 3 stock markets over 1 virtual reality center. But you usually have morale problems on the largest planets and have plenty of tiles.

Factories- enhance factory at 100 cost at +11 is fine. Go for this at any time. But try to avoid manfacture centers-200 cost and industrial sectors-400 cost. Wait until all the empire planet tiles are filled prior to these expensive upgrades.

Avoiding higher tech building doesn't seem right, but it works to produce the fastest expanding empire. Once all the empire planet tiles are fill, then proceed with choice upgrades.
10,467 views 18 replies
Reply #1 Top
Upgrade 60 cost-xeno reserch centers +8 to 200 cost-invention matrix +16 research. Avoid neutral learning centers at 300 cost for +22. These centers are NOT upgradable to discovery spheres later in game. This only applies if you pick neutral path.


Avoid NLC because you can't upgrade to an inferior building?
That's silly.

They have the highest research ability in the game at a much earlier stage. The path beyond Research Acadamy is just to get things like the Omega Research inprovement and a Tech Victory, not for the research building itself.
Reply #2 Top
By avoiding high end techs, you also miss out on getting the trade goods and other special goodies associated with them.
Reply #3 Top
Cost of discovery sphere is 250 for + 18 research. 18/250 = 0.072 for $1. Neutral learning center is 300 cost for +22. 22/300 = 0.073 for $1.

The amount of research 0.073/$1 or 0.072/$1 for the price is approximately the same for both.

Xeno research center at +8 for 60 cost is the best bargin at 8/60 = 0.133 research/cost. This is about twice the amount of research 0.133 verus 0.07 for the cost. Less colony maintenance fees and quick building cost of 60. Having 4 Xeno centers at 60 cost each produce more research (4 x 8 = 32) and cost less (240)than 1 neutral learning center at +22 at 300 cost.

Reply #4 Top
Crunching numbers is fine.

But the bottom line will be, how many buildings will fit on a given planet. That is the real cruncher.

If you want to out-research or out-produce the others, you have to have better facilities even if they cost a little more to operate.

It makes more sense to have one less factory for the same amount of total production (even if the individual factories cost more), because you can then add an additional stock market and reap all those benefits.
Reply #5 Top
HEre's what I think best solution would be to lower the build time of higher level factories, but keep cost the game somehow.

Reply #6 Top
What we really need is a per planet option to build primary buidings only on planets. Once all the tiles are full switch off the option and let the planet upgrade to current tech. You would get your new planets up and running much faster and cheaper.

Right now getting NLC or Industrial sector tech to early can destroy your economy. You almost want to give it to the AI free to screw his economy.
Reply #7 Top
But the bottom line will be, how many buildings will fit on a given planet. That is the real cruncher.

If you want to out-research or out-produce the others, you have to have better facilities even if they cost a little more to operate.


In 1.2 and earlier I agree.
However with 1.31, the cost of NLCs and industrial centers are very high -- especially the upgrading costs from the previous building.
In my current game I mainly just ugraded to manufacturing centers, I did get the industrial centers tech after I finished ugrading to manufactouing centers. And did upgrade some bonus tiles to ICs.
It's mainly how long it'll take to upgrade all the MCs to ICs -- just an awful long time.
Also if the map has everything abundant, you'll get more bang for your BCs by building up economy starbases rather than upgrading MCs to ICs.
I do think that a player can still win if they build up to ICs and NLCs but I think it is probably better to stop at MCs and invention matrixs or discovery spheres.

As for the OP, I have always timed my tech research with my building upgrades.( well after my first game anyways )
And with 1.31 I do feel it is advantageous to have a specific upgrading strategy.
I don't do any espionage till after I've finished all but my last building upgrades.

Reply #8 Top
Right now getting NLC or Industrial sector tech to early can destroy your economy. You almost want to give it to the AI free to screw his economy.


Almost?
It is a very viable strategy employed by several players I believe.

Reply #9 Top
Almost?
It is a very viable strategy employed by several players I believe.


*raises hand*

"My liege, we have started producing the industrial sectors, the great gift you gave us for which we are eternally grateful, but our economy is ruined! Have you not any economy buildings for sale?"

"Sure... if you feel like declaring war on the Drengins".

Remember, a poor galaxy is a chaotic galaxy. Being rich in a poor, chaotic galaxy means winning.

However I disagree with star falcon. You can keep your xeno centers which are "a bargain", I'll upgrade to NLCs and actually have a decent research team making sure my economy and military are second to none. The numbers you have demonstrated are not worth putting off the gain of an NLC, or the advantage it gives in the early game, in the slightest. To forgo the most powerful research center in the game for a .001 bonus per BC is absolutely ludicrous.
Reply #11 Top
I agree on principle with the OP but I think the *reasoning* for the stategy is misplaced. If you expand too quickly in this game you find yourself with an economic crunch you cannot support because of all those initial colonies now costing you a good chunk of change. This is true if you have basic factories or not. Also it is why I build an economic building first on any planet newly colonized. The initial colony has enough SP to get the early buildings I need built. After that depending on what the planet is destined to be (ship production, research, or cash) I will rush build a factory or maybe a lab. Obviously the bonus tiles on the planet get top priority.

I tend to pace my colony expansion with my economy. If I happen to hit upon an economic resource then I can expand a bit faster. If not well then I rely on getting my existing colonies profitable as soon as possible. Once your economy can support the higher level buildings you really should go for them.

I see people post about the need for building the previous tech buildings on new planets or newly conquered planets. You can modify the game files to allow for this. Honestly for me this has never been an issue in any of the games I've played. If I'm too impatient for whatever reason to wait for the planet to build the building itself I simply buy it. Typically at the point in the game where it would be an issue I've got more money then I know what to do with anyway. Now I can't speak in terms of difficulty settings beyond Tough since I don't like the AI to have any unnecessary advantages. But as I'm sure all of the vets here know once you get your economy sound in order to maximize your planets you need those high tech buildings. Which sounds like what the OP is trying to point out .
Reply #12 Top
Giving the IC tech to a computer player is especially devastating if they are currently more than one manufacturing tech from normally reaching it. About 20-30 turns before invading them seems to be ideal (at least on Suicidal). It means they have finally gotten the upgrade process going well about the time your troop transports hit and you can benefit from the upgrades.

No, really, I wouldn't be that mean to the computer!
Reply #13 Top
Frankly, I'd not mind seeing something brought in from Star Trek BOTF. When you colonize a new planet, you've got to build the base structures on the planet, then take each planet through the upgrade process. So you couldn't put an industrial sector on a new world, you put down a basic factory, and work it up through every generation of improvement first.

It might slow some games down a lot after the initial colonization explosion, but it would also help smooth out the late aquisition of planets through conquest that need to be rebuilt after the invasion.
Reply #14 Top
*raises hand*

"My liege, we have started producing the industrial sectors, the great gift you gave us for which we are eternally grateful, but our economy is ruined! Have you not any economy buildings for sale?"

"Sure... if you feel like declaring war on the Drengins".


Now how realistic or "fun" do you really find that strategy? I think it's just plain bad design call to have the basic buildings go obsolete when you research higher tech. It's kind of goofy that a struggling fresh colony HAS to build a shining new Industrial Sector to get up'n'running... Yeah, I know you can buy it, but what if you happen to be low on cash?

Has anyone tried modding the Planet Improvements so that you can build all the improvements at all times (Or maybe so that Factory/Enh. Factory obsolete older techs and Mfg. Center starts a new upgrade path)? Does that screw AI actions a lot?



Reply #15 Top

Now how realistic or "fun" do you really find that strategy? I think it's just plain bad design call to have the basic buildings go obsolete when you research higher tech.

Well, when you build a new plant in a country, do you build a XIX century plant first, then upgrade it to a XX century one then to a XXI century one, or do you build directly a XXI century plant?

BTW, this "bad" design is the only way that allows you to be able to stand against the Dreadlords in the campaign: they have all techs so they can only build expensive buildings, giving you some time

Reply #16 Top
Has anyone tried modding the Planet Improvements so that you can build all the improvements at all times (Or maybe so that Factory/Enh. Factory obsolete older techs and Mfg. Center starts a new upgrade path)? Does that screw AI actions a lot?


Yes someone has (very old post couldn't find it) and no it does not mess up the AI provided you just add buildings to the file rather then remove the ones that are there. In the PlanetaryImprovements.xml the tag S_UpgradeTarget tells the game which building the new one replaces. The new building you add, call it *OldFactory* or some such, should be unlocked when you research say Xeno Factories and upgrade nothing. The AI won't bother with this *new* building since it manages to have no problems building a nice new Industrial Sector when needed. But it does allow you to do exactly what you want. Can't use it for metaverse games but eh. Just pay attention to what the game calls technologies internally because there are some that are different from their in game names.
Reply #17 Top
Well, when you build a new plant in a country, do you build a XIX century plant first, then upgrade it to a XX century one then to a XXI century one, or do you build directly a XXI century plant?



If I run a poor a country, then yes


The new building you add, call it *OldFactory* or some such, should be unlocked when you research say Xeno Factories and upgrade nothing. The AI won't bother with this *new* building since it manages to have no problems building a nice new Industrial Sector when needed. But it does allow you to do exactly what you want. Can't use it for metaverse games but eh. Just pay attention to what the game calls technologies internally because there are some that are different from their in game names.


This sounds like a good mod to me, thanks Cyber

So you think that if I in example do a new building for Xeno Farm Construction, called Xeno Mini-Farms, that costs 50 and gives +4mt/wk food, The AI would still build (or upgrade) the basic Xeno Farms, cost 100/+6mt/wk? I'm just wondering whether the AI considers which building has most Bang For Buck (food/credit, production/credit etc), or does it go straight for the building that has the highest output, no matter the cost? High end buildings tend to have very low efficiency value, I'm just afraid that if I allow "mini-versions" with higher efficiency but lower output, the AI might only build those mini-buildings, which isn't too profitable in the long run as it takes too much space.
Reply #18 Top
The 1.4 verision update changes things a bit. The stock markets lose their morale bonus of +10% in verision 1.4. Might have to consider entertainment buildings to boost morale versus an all-out stock market building frenzy. I will probably still avoid industrial sectors at 400 cost and high maintenance cost in early to middle game range. Will try verision 1.4 this weekend to explore new strategies.