Tech Tree Worry - Developers Please Clarify

What does 'Streamline' mean?

Hi,

I like everything about the expansion, except for the feature : -

New stream-lined technology tree. The Galactic Civilizations II technology tree gets a make-over to make it more stream-lined and interesting.

What does this mean?

I like a really big, long, slow tech-tree with lots of different technologies. From the comments regarding the announcement on the homepage, several others feel the same.

Removing technologies would be a BAD thing unless they were replaced by an equal number of cooler technologies.

Please can a developer comment?
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Reply #1 Top
Got a bad feeling about this too.  

I hate it when my fav. game loses some part that I liked, u know like morale buildings, NLC's, space monsters, world destroying starbases, half the farming tech tree, diplomacy/trading options etc, etc...

Basically I HATE GAME NERFING!

While I am having a rant, anyone who says, "this is too powerful, this unbalance's the game, major exploit (when it isn't), remove _______ from the game its too powerful", should be given to the Korath for readjustment.

If u feel something is too powerful, answer is don't use it. Have some self-control, yr the one in charge, don't ruin it for the rest of us!
Reply #2 Top
We're adding techs but we're going to change the user interface to be much better.
Reply #3 Top
How about we just let them get the expansion out there and see what's in it. Wow, I mean really people, it's a game! Play it, live it, love it. Quit asking for more, more, more!!!!! Sorry for the rant but enough is enough already. Not aiming at anyone in particular, just tired of constant requests.
Reply #4 Top
We're adding techs but we're going to change the user interface to be much better.


Oh, errr...calms down, says thanks and quietly moves on.

Cheers Frogboy, new techs, yippee  
Reply #5 Top
How about we just let them get the expansion out there and see what's in it. Wow, I mean really people, it's a game! Play it, live it, love it. Quit asking for more, more, more!!!!! Sorry for the rant but enough is enough already. Not aiming at anyone in particular, just tired of constant requests.

It was a request for clarification only, not for something new to be added.

How could that possibly upset you? I was wondering the same thing about the new tech tree.

Reply #6 Top
How could that possibly upset you? I was wondering the same thing about the new tech tree.


Sorry Moosetek, posting on the wrong topic to begin with. No, the question doesn't upset me, and I too am interested. Just been reading all of these requests and the darned expansion isn't even out yet. Love the forum support and the great ideas, and the devs bending over to please the masses. I for one just want to play the expansion, whatever it contains, because I love the game. All of the add this and add that, or wouldn't that be cool is just wearing thin. I mean cmon people doesn't anyone else agree with me on this one? It's a great game as it is. Frogboy, Kryo, CariElf, and the other people working on this know what they want, they know what we want.
Reply #7 Top
I agree with you, Stormbringer. Give people an inch and they want a mile, so to speak.

We have a moddable game, and they want more mod options.
The devs bend over backwards for us, and they want them to do flips as well.
More, more, more is their motto. Gluttony abounds.

I just thought the comment was out of place in this particular thread, but in an overall sense I fully agree with you.
Reply #8 Top
We're adding techs but we're going to change the user interface to be much better.


Ah, the good definition of streamlining! I've always found GalCiv2's tech tree UI to be a bit difficult to work with, so I'm looking forward to that. I play on my laptop a lot, and at 1024x768 there's a lot of scrolling around involved.
Reply #9 Top

The main issue with the tech tree is way it's presented:

 

Laser I, Laser II, Laser III, Laser IV, etc.

It's just uninspired looking and a pain to navigate.

Reply #10 Top
Maybe I'm getting off topic too, but to address what Evil Stormbringer said: as I understand it, the developers got all these suggestions and ideas from us and didn't want to wait for a sequel before using them. There might not be an expansion without our contributions. Or to put it another way: Stardock has no problem with us making suggestions and giving ideas, so why do you?
Reply #11 Top
Well stated ras.
Reply #12 Top
The main issue with the tech tree is way it's presented:

Laser I, Laser II, Laser III, Laser IV, etc.
It's just uninspired looking and a pain to navigate


So are you going to increase damage to each laser and increase miniturazation.

Or move the weapons in differant parts of the tree.

Or are you going to remove lasers and just have one laser? I'd like a little better explanation.
Reply #13 Top
I really could be way off here, but from the little that I have seen, it would make sense progression wise and also placate many of the people that think Laser I-V is a boring way to do the techs.

Even something as simple as Light Laser, Medium Laser, Gattling Laser and Heavy Laser would be a big improvement.

Along that idea is to have the first tech be Lasers and then have the next 4 techs change what the weapon can do. Make it the 1 point smaller, but then also add in the option of MoO2 style weapon modding (Auto-fire, Continuous, Heavy, Point-defense were some of them for beams). I know in MoO2 the mods changed the size and cost of the weapon system, so you can either keep your 1 damage laser that takes up, say 5 space instead of 6, or you can make it a heavy laser that does 2 damage, takes up 6 space and adds x% to the cost. I'll be honest that I can't see how well that it would balance, thought the ability to have some very heavy weaponry that is almost to the point of prohibitively expensive would make it somewhat self balancing (there is only so much point in making a fighter that has 6 attack early in the game if it takes 15 turns to build each one).

As for navigating\adding techs to the tree, it could be made possible for the tree to be something like:

Galactic Warfare--Beam Weapons--Lasers----Plama Cannons----Phasors
..................................................................|-Heavy............ |-Heavy............... |-Heavy
..................................................................|-Continuous... |-Continuous... |-Continuous
..................................................................|-Autofire......... |-Autofire............ |-Autofire

To prevent people from just going straight through the tree, maybe link the starting tech cost of the main tech (I.E. Plasma Cannons) to the other techs researched under Lasers. The more of the Laser weapon mods you research, the lower the starting price is for plasma cannons, as you are getting a much better understanding of the physics of Lasers and are coming up with ways to move beyond them.

Now, I am not saying 'Do it this way!' If people don't think this would be a reasonable way to do weapons, especially frogboy and the rest of the Devs, then it wont happen.

The thing that I am not sure on, except for heavy, is what the names\functions for all the mods would or could be. Heavy, as the name implies, could be an over powered laser. While it isn't much bigger it is far more expensive for durable focusing lenses, etc. Maybe Autofire has a chance not to waste its shot on an already destroyed vessel (Make Huge vessels useful against the mobs of tiny hulls, while not guaranteeing that 1 huge ship crushes fleet after fleet). Maybe Continuos has a small chance to also inflict damage on the next target or a few extra points on the current target if it hasn't blown up. These things I just made up as I went along in this post, so people can get much more elaborate and creative (also opens the door to user created weapon mods)

And lastly, I really didn't want to write this much, but I got going....and well, might as well spill the whole idea out there. I hope that you guys don't think this is too far fetched an idea. If it is a little too far out for the expansion (as it would also require changing some of the combat code and AI code) I hope that it would be considered in a future sequel or for another game that would be applicable.

Thanks for reading.
Reply #15 Top
MoO2 style weapon modding (Auto-fire, Continuous, Heavy, Point-defense were some of them for beams)


I like your suggestions, LoneWolf0912. Not because it is MOO, but because it adds strategic decions and feeling to ship designing, something I really miss in GC2 right now.

I also wonder if "streamlining" and adding techs will also mean more techs for REAL ship designing, like more modules/devices(cloaking among many other possibilities)/special weapons/ weapons' modifications and such...

I think even without true tactical combat, this would add suspense, uncertainty and a lot of longevity for the whole game!

Reply #16 Top
Even something as simple as Light Laser, Medium Laser, Gattling Laser and Heavy Laser would be a big improvement.


(Citizen)LoneWolf0912s Idea is awesome. Please go with that. I Third the idea.
Reply #17 Top
To prevent people from just going straight through the tree, maybe link the starting tech cost of the main tech (I.E. Plasma Cannons) to the other techs researched under Lasers. The more of the Laser weapon mods you research, the lower the starting price is for plasma cannons, as you are getting a much better understanding of the physics of Lasers and are coming up with ways to move beyond them.


I love it. You could try researching Black Hole Eruptors first thing, but your scientists are basically grasping at straws and hoping for a miracle until you've researched some of the more comprehensible things along the way.
Reply #18 Top
I like your suggestions, LoneWolf0912. Not because it is MOO, but because it adds strategic decions and feeling to ship designing, something I really miss in GC2 right now.

I also wonder if "streamlining" and adding techs will also mean more techs for REAL ship designing, like more modules/devices(cloaking among many other possibilities)/special weapons/ weapons' modifications and such...

I think even without true tactical combat, this would add suspense, uncertainty and a lot of longevity for the whole game!


Indeed, the ship design was actually the biggest disappointment for me, to be honest.

Sure, it is excellent the way you can create awesome looking ships (expecially with the aide of several mods), but the functions ships can have, expecially militarily, are extremely limited. military ships, troop transports, freighters, contructors, colony ships, scouts, surveyers. That's pretty much it.

The only other game of this type I've played, however, is Alpha Centauri (which had plenty of interesting modules to place on units), so I might be biased about this. The game is still great, and I anxiously await the expansion... but it's not without its own little problems...

I love it. You could try researching Black Hole Eruptors first thing, but your scientists are basically grasping at straws and hoping for a miracle until you've researched some of the more comprehensible things along the way.
This would be an interesting way of doing this. A lot of the screenshots released not to long ago had the player researching the Tech Victory with it taking over 3-4 thousand weeks... of course, that really doesn't say much, but I can hope, aye?
Reply #19 Top
Well, I am glad you guys like my late night thought ^_^ Hopefully some form of it could be considered, though it may be a bit too much change in the combat dynamics to implement.

Well, I'm just going to have to wait until we hear from the devs, either on whether this is feasible or if it is being considered.
Reply #20 Top
In case of "nerfers" have it so you can eliminate sections of the tech-tree for a particular game, but the rest of the technologies which descend from it are also gone. But keep a few mandatory technologies like basic warfare techs. As for how to do the tech tree after that, I agree with the above posters, and I think there should be some kind of "Mastery Weapon/armour/starbase module/planetary improvement" because if you read the descriptions of the armour tech tree or the laser tech tree they all had different mechanics behind them. Obviously, the mastery for missile defense is already there as areon missile defense which is essentially a combination of all the other techs.
Reply #21 Top

MoO2 style weapon modding (Auto-fire, Continuous, Heavy, Point-defense were some of them for beams)

Sure, it is excellent the way you can create awesome looking ships (expecially with the aide of several mods), but the functions ships can have, expecially militarily, are extremely limited. military ships, troop transports, freighters, contructors, colony ships, scouts, surveyers. That's pretty much it.

I think you are missing an important point: what can you make in the ship designer is heavily linked with the way combat work: no range limitation, no targetting problem ...

Reply #22 Top
I really hope that they do streamline the tech tree. Get rid of the ridiculous laser 1-5 type techs that clog up the weapons and defense branches and come up with new, interesting techs to replace them (or just leave them out altogether).
Reply #23 Top
I think you are missing an important point: what can you make in the ship designer is heavily linked with the way combat work: no range limitation, no targetting problem ...


And your point is? Ships still don't have very many roles that can actually undertake, combat or not.

I really hope that they do streamline the tech tree. Get rid of the ridiculous laser 1-5 type techs that clog up the weapons and defense branches and come up with new, interesting techs to replace them (or just leave them out altogether).


They are, as far as I know. You'll only see "Laser" on the Tech Tree, but while reaching Lasers, you'll discover many "milestones" along the way to fully researching it. Whether or not you need all Milestones to research the next actual tech in line... probably, but they could change that by making the cost scale compared to how much you researched the previous tech, as noted above.
Reply #24 Top

 

And your point is? Ships still don't have very many roles that can actually undertake, combat or not.

Don't blame the ship designer for this.

Indeed, the ship design was actually the biggest disappointment for me, to be honest.

Blame the game mechanisms (no tactical combat, ...) since they are responsible for the few available roles.

Reply #25 Top
I really hope that they do streamline the tech tree. Get rid of the ridiculous laser 1-5 type techs that clog up the weapons and defense branches and come up with new, interesting techs to replace them (or just leave them out altogether).


Thats exactly what I don't want them to do and what everyone is worried about. We don't want them removing "anything". They've removed enough.