The Zen of Farming

No.

No.

Meglobob is very stingy with words. Actually the answer is No, No and No. BTW love the title.

Farm buildings are
for all that is worth to me
not worth much: build one.

Nice Haiku! Thanks.

I was used to farming from Master of Orion, where the farms merely determine food production, which affects population growth, not population cap. Planet size and planet type tended to determine the latter.

And excess food production (the 'surplus') could be shipped to another world that has problems supporting its own population.

Anyway, that's Master of Orion, and not necessarily better or worse - even if I tend to prefer that method of handling food production.

MOO (I not, II) remains the gold standard for 4X games, IMO, so the comparison is fair.

It would be a nice design feature if shortages or near shortages of food impacted pop morale negatively while a small excess or greater impacted it positively, thanks to the inhabitants greater peace of mind.

One more question, does excess food impact the rest of your empire in any way, or is it only useful on the planet it's produced on? Being originally from North Dakota, a farm planet seems like a natural, if somewhat disturbing, construct.

Farms do only one thing, that is raise the population cap. There isn't a "food" commodity in any way. Maybe it would be nice if the whole food thing was a little more involved, but it is what it is. I guess the game designers didn't feel farming was something worth getting into that heavily. I would tend to agree.

One more question, does excess food impact the rest of your empire in any way, or is it only useful on the planet it's produced on? Being originally from North Dakota, a farm planet seems like a natural, if somewhat disturbing, construct.

Yes it does. It can bankrupt u, rather like the E.U. agricultural policy bankrupts europe but heh...so long as the French r happy...

The balance of importance between the farming structures and other structures would be improved by such a change, but I agree that I don't need farming to be of greater improtance for its own sake. I'll just eschew building farms.

Actually, the title of my post came from a nickname we gave to an ancient computer game called "Lords of the Realm" because of the high value it placed on farming. It was fun, but strange and I am not advocating that any other game go that route.

MOO (I not, II) remains the gold standard for 4X games, IMO, so the comparison is fair.

What is so great about the first game compared to the second, anyway? I have never understood this. MOOII felt like it improved it in every way, and didn't detract from the gameplay- unlike MOOIII, which pretty much changed the whole game around.

Anyway... not much to actually contribute to the thread... apologies for contributing to derailment...

Farms do only one thing, that is raise the population cap. There isn't a "food" commodity in any way. Maybe it would be nice if the whole food thing was a little more involved, but it is what it is. I guess the game designers didn't feel farming was something worth getting into that heavily. I would tend to agree.

It's 'The Balance'. I'd personally like to see features which really dig into managing a civilization; specializing planets, setting food routes, and all the other little things which keep the typical obsessive-compulsive player happy. Hell, left to my own devices, I'd be plotting out power conduits on my ships.

But for every detail which is expanded, the game's learning curve increases. And these days most players like simple stuff they can jump right into. And a steep learning curve really hurts in the reviews.

Stardock's done a great job of submersing the details so the casual player can still pick it up, while the serious player can 'dig in'. But how I do wish I could ship food! IIRC, it used to be a great tactic in MOO I to hamstring an opponent by targeting his freighters and cause his populace to starve.

What is so great about the first game compared to the second, anyway? I have never understood this. MOOII felt like it improved it in every way, and didn't detract from the gameplay- unlike MOOIII, which pretty much changed the whole game around.

The AI in MOO I did by far the best job of any of these games in providing a challenging opponent, and in making the diplomacy system relevant to the game. Random and inexplicable swings in behavior plagued the AI in MOO II and made diplomacy far less predictable. So much so that many ignored it entirely. While MOO II was an improvement in all other ways, the poor AI and diplomacy model made it a significant step down from MOO I. If someone started w/MOO II and never mastered MOO I, I can see where such differences would be missed.

Still a great game though. Even Master of Magic, which featured the worst game AI I've ever seen (barely beating Age of Wonders for tactical AI ineptitude), was a fun game.

Is it just me or is it more times than not that the first planet I conquer I get the farm update tech and it trashes my population growth strat ...?

Which farm tech? What is your strat? I am usually at xeno farm III long before the AI.

I usually plan to add farm upgrades carefully so I can control each planets morale and population. If the AI trys to trade these techs to me I can decline, but when I get these thru conquest I will have to make adjustment to some planets focus. If it is a game where I have lots of worlds this involves going to each Colony Management screen and checking the settings. This can happen with factory(s), research labs and entertain buildings as well. My post was really just an observation of something that happens during my games and it adds a unexpected challenge, which ain't necessarily a bad thing. Hey, it adds spice to game.

I would guess that farming strategies are closely related to how you play the game on other fronts. In my approach, for example, population is very important.

As you know, your citizens do two things for you: they pay taxes and they fight. Usually, I pick my racial traits to boost that aspect with Economics and Soldiering. On most planets, the population cap lies over 5 billion so I often build one farm (sometimes two) on all planets, accompanied with a Stock Market or two if the planet is not specialized on economics.

This results in two nice aspects in my empire. First of all, I have a fairly evenly distributed population. As you know, one planet with 10 billion citizens pays less taxes than two planets with 5 billion, so I optimize my revenues per citizen.

Second, thanks to the improved Soldiering and the increase amount of citizens on any given planet, the AI needs to send in multiple transports to even make a chance at successfully invading one of my planets. Also, the outnumbering means I take less damage. Sending in three transports in succession will do less damage then sending all three simultaneously.

This helps me at other areas. The higher population and the reduced need of keeping ships in orbit of most planets allows me to reduce taxes which leads to a better moral (and more points). It also allows me to dedicate more planets to manufacturing or research which in turn boosts my Soldiering bonus again and helps me achieve a tech lead.

Thanks for the input SleekDD, I generally put 1 farm on PQ8+ (none if lower PQ). I then only add another farm later as I reach max pop on PQ12+, the best planet I have ever owned for long enough to even think of farm#3 was a PQ18. My top PQ plant was 26, but I only got that one at the end of a long game.

Actually, the title of my post came from a nickname we gave to an ancient computer game called "Lords of the Realm" because of the high value it placed on farming. It was fun, but strange and I am not advocating that any other game go that route.

Loved that game! Maybe GC2 needs little wagons we can set afire...

It's 'The Balance'. I'd personally like to see features which really dig into managing a civilization; specializing planets, setting food routes, and all the other little things which keep the typical obsessive-compulsive player happy. Hell, left to my own devices, I'd be plotting out power conduits on my ships. But for every detail which is expanded, the game's learning curve increases. And these days most players like simple stuff they can jump right into. And a steep learning curve really hurts in the reviews.

Too bad, too, because 4x games were kind of our last place to hide. I guess now we'll just have to take tranquilizers before we play video games.

Still, if Stardock ever releases source code for this or GC1, the modders are going to go nuts with features like these.