At present there is no technology that can produce an instant DNA scan so that is not a viable option for voter ID. A thumbprint scan is easily done.

As for forging a voter ID, most ID cards these days have a magnetic data strip. A quick swipe of the card and check with the voter registration database can spot a forgery pretty damn quick and completely shoots down that argument. The database could be set up like the DMV database and include the image of the photo just like it's done in most states with their driver's licenses. It would also identify those attempting to vote in more than one precinct.

What personal sensitive data do you suppose the state can discover about you from a thumbprint scan to which they don't already have access?

There is nothing inherently evil or unconstitutional about requiring positive identification. But I suppose some people are going to be paranoid no matter what. This sounds a lot like the same kinds of objections some people spouted when states first starting putting photos on driver's licenses.

drguy's response to my question:

nothing? can you describe a plausible scenario in which your hypothetical wandering multivoter is able to walk in, make up a name and get a ballot?

was:

Chicago.

having lived for a time in both da land ob daley and in its adjacent nw indiana colonies, i can attest to having seen clerks in the local equivalent of dmv offices sell drivers' licenses bearing false data for about the equivalent of $80 in today's money to people with the right connections. i can't recall if i had a visa card back then but no matter; what i never left home without was my driver's license prudently wrapped in a crisp $10 bill. winter was an even crueler season for those who hadn't gotten right with their ward healer's neighborhood rep. no matter how narrow your street or how big a blade it bore, snowplows always missed the drifts in front of your place. not that it woulda made much difference cuz when you put a couple chairs out there to prevent others from parking in 'your' space (like everyone else on your block), they'd walk away soon as you drove off.

based on my experience, i was easily chumped by hysterical reports by the dreaded msm (who else??) of massive voter fraud in cook county during the 1960 presidential election.

noone knows better than yall how unreliable they can be (except, of course, when contriving or promoting blatant deliberate falsehoods).

i'm not sure whether you (like i) have been a victim of media incompetence, plain ol evildoing or an equal measure of both, but the scales have fallen from my eyes.

david greenburg, author of Was Nixon Robbed? prefaces the results of his research this way:

"That Richard Nixon was cheated out of the presidency in 1960 has become almost an accepted fact. You've probably heard the allegations: Kennedy's operatives fixed the tallies in Texas and Illinois, giving him those states' 51 electoral votes and a majority in the Electoral College. Fearing that to question the results would harm the country, Nixon checked his pride and declined to mount a challenge.

The story is rich in irony: The much-hated Nixon, later driven from the presidency for cheating in an election, puts country before personal gain. The beloved Kennedy, waltzing through life, pulls off the political crime of the century. Nixon's defenders like the story because it diminishes Watergate. His detractors like it since it allows them to appear less than knee-jerk—magnanimously crediting Nixon with noble behavior while eluding charges of Kennedy worship.

Ironic, yes. But true?"

considering the information he provides, greenburg's subtitle (The legend of the stolen 1960 presidential election) is nothing short of diplomaticaly restrained and objectively generous.

the bottom line (for me anyway) is linked to the main article here as a sidebar page detailing investigations by benjamin adamowski, who lost his run for re-election as cook county states attorney in the 1960 election and then went on to act as nixon's proxy.

After losing the battle at the state Board of Elections, Adamowski sued. He won another recount of the 863 precincts under contention. In that second recount, he fared considerably better than in the first—though still not well enough to win his election. Although this second recount didn't include presidential ballots, Professor Edmund Kallina of the University of Central Florida projected that if Nixon's tally had improved in the second recount as much as Adamowski's did, Nixon too would have fallen shy of victory.

Of course, many of the fraud allegations weren't the sort of thing that a recount could detect. To address other kinds of fraud, Adamowski, as a lame-duck state's attorney, convened grand juries to investigate his own re-election race. After his Democratic successor took over, the matter was turned over to a special state prosecutor, Morris J. Wexler. Wexler returned his report on April 13, 1961. He concluded that irregularities had occurred, but, again, not enough to have influenced any election outcome. He also returned the 677 indictments mentioned above.

There's one final wrinkle. Allegations of vote fraud by Republicans arose across Illinois too. (Outside Chicago, the GOP controlled most districts.) Such charges drew little scrutiny because of Kennedy's victory, but if the Cook County vote had been in danger of reversal, Democrats surely would have mounted challenges downstate to win back votes that may have been stolen in the other direction.

sorry for goin on at such length--especially considering it was inspired by drguy's one-word reply. thing is, it not only seemed to me germane to the issue, but also a courtesy to drguy who has recently begun showing symptoms of being unable to recall any but well-documented authoritative comments.

Here's another one Kingbee... Members of a community go door to door, they ask the people at the door if they are planning on voting in the upcoming election. If they say they aren't, the good members hand them the form for an absentee ballot. They are then given an envelope with an address on it, asking them to send the blank absentee ballot... they are then told that if they do, they will get some kind of reward for doing so... Another example... The local high school officials plan a "civic duty" object lesson. During school time, the students will take part in a project to "canvas the neighborhoods". The school officials say that it's a great, non-partisan way to get the kids involved. The project is cancelled after a local talk show host points out that every neighborhood "canvased" is a predominantly democrat neighborhood... also that most of the neighborhoods to be "canvased" aren't even in the school's area.

how are photo id voter cards gonna affect the situations you've described?

noone is gonna be mailing their id card anywhere are they?

regarding the second example, the school administration or perhaps individual teachers may be violating their contracts or district regulations but i'd be amazed if they violated any laws prohibiting voter fraud or anything even close.

Kingbee... keep defending the fraudulent. I don't know why you are so adamantly against doing anything about fraud though. Sad.

At present there is no technology that can produce an instant DNA scan so that is not a viable option for voter ID. A thumbprint scan is easily done

i doubt voter id documents--no matter what format is finally mandated, if and when--will be produced and distributed instantly. scanning prints for submission to afis isn't as simple as it might seem. post submission prep & analysis also takes time.

As for forging a voter ID, most ID cards these days have a magnetic data strip. A quick swipe of the card and check with the voter registration database can spot a forgery pretty damn quick and completely shoots down that argument

professional credit card thieves have the skill and hardware needed to reprogram those strips.

once again, unless registrar data is properly secured, there's nothing to prevent creation of bogus cards capable of fooling the system. when voter data is properly secured, cards are redundant.

without access to key data, identity theft is impossible. you gotta have a real name as well as corresponding actual check data (social security or dl#). if you have a name and ss#, you don't need to have a credit card in your hand.

bottom line: to pass yourself off as an eligible voter, you need to know the name, address, etc. of a real person's registration information. when that kinda stuff is available, any system is vulnerable.

What personal sensitive data do you suppose the state can discover about you from a thumbprint scan to which they don't already have access?

every print collected thru afis is added to the fbi's iafis system. you may not know you have open warrants for a number of reasons. the agency who requested the warrant may not know how to find you. registering to vote may be all it takes to help them find and enlighten you.

I don't know why you are so adamantly against doing anything about fraud though

i'm adamantly against anything that discourages citizens from exercising their enfranchisement unless/until there's irrefutable evidence of a need to do so AS WELL AS irrefutable proof the proposed solution will be at least 99.9% effective as a deterent.

sad?

what's sad is how much support the voter id push is receiving from those of you who'd normally be up in arms over the establishment of new federal programs--especially programs with a clear potential for serious abuse--that are both unnecessary and ineffective.

unnecessary?

certainly is and will remain that way until someone presents verifiable evidence fraudulent voting at a much higher rate than the 0.00004% to 0.0009% actually detected (as opposed to mere estimates) during final tabulations of all votes casts in recent closely scrutinized, highly contested elections in different states.

inneffective?

consider the following excerpt from thethe brennan center's voter registration page

"Voter fraud is often conflated with other forms of election misconduct. It is extremely rare for individuals to vote multiple times, vote as someone else, or vote despite knowing that they are ineligible. These rare occurrences, however, are often conflated with other forms of election irregularities or misconduct, under the misleading and overbroad label of “voter fraud.” Some of these other irregularities result from honest mistakes by election officials or voters, such as confusion as to whether a particular person is actually eligible to vote. Some irregularities result from technological glitches, whether sinister or benign: for example, voting machines may record inaccurate tallies. And some involve fraud or intentional misconduct perpetrated by actors other than individual voters: for example, flyers may spread misinformation about the proper locations or procedures for voting; thugs may be dispatched to intimidate voters at the polls; missing ballot boxes may mysteriously reappear. These more common forms of misconduct are simply not addressed by the supposed “anti-fraud” measures generally proposed."

Democrats don't want ID cards because the percentage of barely motivated, low skilled, lazy citizens that tend to vote Democratic is much higher than those who tend to vote Republican. 

That is why during elections Democrats try to bus the dregs of humanity to polling booths.

Republicans, by contrast, want to create as many barriers to vote because statistically the most motivated, most together voters tend to vote Republican.

consider the following excerpt from thethe brennan center's voter registration page "Voter fraud is often conflated with other forms of election misconduct. It is extremely rare for individuals to vote multiple times, vote as someone else, or vote despite knowing that they are ineligible. These rare occurrences, however, are often conflated with other forms of election irregularities or misconduct, under the misleading and overbroad label of “voter fraud.” Some of these other irregularities result from honest mistakes by election officials or voters, such as confusion as to whether a particular person is actually eligible to vote. Some irregularities result from technological glitches, whether sinister or benign: for example, voting machines may record inaccurate tallies. And some involve fraud or intentional misconduct perpetrated by actors other than individual voters: for example, flyers may spread misinformation about the proper locations or procedures for voting; thugs may be dispatched to intimidate voters at the polls; missing ballot boxes may mysteriously reappear. These more common forms of misconduct are simply not addressed by the supposed “anti-fraud” measures generally proposed."

Considering they don't know squat...try these instead:


Link

Or this:

In the midst of a heated congressional race in California, the Democrat Party candidate was heard advising a crowd she knew were illegal aliens to vote and work for her campaign. Democrat Francine Busby supports the bipartisan immigration reform plan that Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) helped hammer out with Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-MA. Busby believes that the amnesty serves as the heart of the legislation approved by the Senate last week.

Or this:

In 1996, Congress enacted the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, making it a federal crime for non-citizens to vote in any federal election (or state election, unless authorized by state law). As a penalty, ineligible non-citizens who knowingly vote may be deported. Additionally, a non-citizen who falsely claims to be a United States citizen is in violation of this law. However, there are many documented reports of non-citizen voting,[1] [2] and there is no evidence of prosecution of the aliens for their action. With nearly 19 million foreign-born residents who are not U.S. citizens in the country in the 2000 Census and an estimated 9-11 million illegal residents (many of them not also counted in the Census), the potential is enormous for non-citizens to affect the outcome of elections.

Or even this:


Link

Then come back and say we don't need any form of ID.

Kingbee:

Voter fraud is often conflated with other forms of election misconduct. It is extremely rare for individuals to vote multiple times, vote as someone else, or vote despite knowing that they are ineligible.

So how were there more votes than voters in Milwaukee in 2004? How were there around 30,000 more votes than the total tally of the candidates in Milwaukee in 2006? Why was it that many people showed up to vote after work, only to be told that they already voted, in that very precinct?

Yes, you are right, I am not for federal ID cards for voting, that is why I have cited only evidence within my state where State Issued ID cards would help. True also, they aren't the beginning and the end of voter fraud remedies. However, I have yet to hear of ONE democrat in this state that is for ANY legislation which would curb the rampant problem.

We already know King Doyle owes his entire political career to fraud, criminal behavior and raping the system for his own gain. We know that the drunk driving Attorney General of the state would rather drink the vomit of a republican than actually prosecute an election fraud case.

With that facts in mind, sure, voter ID cards might not fix much, but until I hear at least one idea from a Wisconsin Democrat, I am stuck on the idea that they know where their wallow is and seem to enjoy it.

The kind of voter fraud that Democrats have used effectively is getting other people to vote for people who don't want to bother going to vote. Demcoratic activists will go into very poor neighborhoods and exchange cigarettes or booze in exchange for voter registration and then go and vote for them.

The constiuents of Democratic candidates have proven time and time again to be a lot less motivated than constiuents of Republicans. People should have to vote in person or if they are going to vote by absentee have to put some effort for it. Voting is a right but that means my vote should count as much as someone else's vote, not be canceled out by some activist voting in place of a homeless person who couldn't be bothered to vote.

Demcoratic activists will go into very poor neighborhoods and exchange cigarettes or booze in exchange for voter registration and then go and vote for them. - Em

They will?

Holy shit!

You'd think they'd eventually get caught for such brazen action. Got some newspaper clippings? A link? Anything?

Sounds more like you're parroting heresay without able to provide any proof. Surely you must have some personal first-hand experience of seeing these actions to prove to yourself the veracity of these outlandish claims.

No you don't.

I'll stop outing you, you do such a good job by yourself.

Deference, are you kidding? Are you saying publicly right now that you aren't aware of what she just pointed out?

I don't have the inclination to put together every clip on Democratic cheating in the manner she and others have described but luckily I don't have to, someone else did:

Book: If it's not close, they can't cheat.

Incidentally, there were a number of articles from the 2000 election about Democrats in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Arizona giving out cartons of cigarettes in exchange for registering to vote. But then again, you think Bush was behind 9/11..

 

That's a nice link, Draginol. Unfortunately, it provides no specific citations, quotes from the book, etc. . So not only does Emily not have any verifiable account to offer us, but you don't either.

I am not so naive to think that there's never been cheating by any side in politics but Em has painted all Democrats on the campaign trail as those carrying booze and cartons o' smoke to ghettos to buy votes. Obvious smear and without source - heresay.


But then again, you think Bush was behind 9/11.. - Draginol

You are lying and you are acting beneath your character.

"A Defiance County man has been arrested for allegedly filing more than 100 false voter registration forms in exchange for crack cocaine from a Toledo woman working on behalf of the NAACP’s voter registration drive.

Chad Staton, 22, of Stratton Ave., faces a fifth-degree felony charge of false registration after sheriff’s deputies said he filled out the registration forms by himself — using either fictitious names or addresses — and gave them to Georgianne Pitts, 41."

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041018/NEWS03/41018011/-1/NEWS

That's a nice link, Draginol. Unfortunately, it provides no specific citations, quotes from the book, etc. . So not only does Emily not have any verifiable account to offer us, but you don't either. I am not so naive to think that there's never been cheating by any side in politics but Em has painted all Democrats on the campaign trail as those carrying booze and cartons o' smoke to ghettos to buy votes. Obvious smear and without source - heresay.

So Def....now that you have a "verifiable link provided by ID are you willing to rethink your position?

That's a nice link, Draginol. Unfortunately, it provides no specific citations, quotes from the book, etc. . So not only does Emily not have any verifiable account to offer us, but you don't either.

I've read the book and it does contain countless examples.  However, I don't care enough whether you believe the issues we're talking about exist or not enough to spend time to repost them.

If you don't think Bush was behind 9/11 then feel free to go back into that thread and clarify what you mean.

That's a nice link, Draginol. Unfortunately, it provides no specific citations, quotes from the book, etc. . So not only does Emily not have any verifiable account to offer us, but you don't either. I am not so naive to think that there's never been cheating by any side in politics but Em has painted all Democrats on the campaign trail as those carrying booze and cartons o' smoke to ghettos to buy votes. Obvious smear and without source - heresay. So Def....now that you have a "verifiable link provided by ID are you willing to rethink your position?

I thought so!