There are more selfish reasons for not yet pulling out of Iraq. Doing so could possibly open up an opportunity for radical Muslim terrorists, possibly aided by a radical run nation such as Iran, to seize control of the oil rich area. They would then, in time, have a great deal of oil based wealth at their disposal with which to finance attacks against the U.S. and other Western nations.

At the very least it would create an opportunity for Iraq to become another Iran which would do nothing but make the Middle East even more unstable than it is currently. It is in our best interest and the interests of all Western nations to do everything possible to try and stabilize Iraq and ensure a secular government is successful there.

Yes, most of the current predictions if we pulled out are that Iraq will further descend into chaos. But let us not forget the other predictions.

It was predicted Iraq had vast stores of WMD. Rumsfeld even said he knew where they were.

It was predicted after the initial battle was over, Iraqis would shower us with rainbows and gumdrops.

It was predicted the entire operation would cost no more than $50 billion. It's in the hundreds of billions of dollars now. A billion dollars a week.

It was predicted the insurgency would be short lived. Cheney said it was in it's 'last throes.' And that was over a year ago.

It was predicted Iraqi oil would pay for the war, and more. Iraqi oil production is below what it was pre-war.

It was claimed Iraq and al Qaida were connected. Truth is, Saddam hated al Qaida and bin Laden, and would never allow them in his country. He wouldn't allow any outside force to exert influence in Iraq.

It was predicted (by Rumsfeld) the war would doubtfully last more than 6 months.



So whatever the current predictions are, I put no confidence in them. In fact, whatever they're saying about Iraq, it's safer and more realistic to think the complete opposite. Should we pull out tomorrow? Of course not, and only a small (but vocal) minority is saying to do that. What we need to do is give the Iraqis an ultimatum, that if they don't get their act together, raise a capable military, and make progress, we're leaving. This has become Iraq's war. They're attacking each other. Civil war? Maybe, maybe not. But either way, we don't belong there.

As for becoming a haven for terrorists training camps, I don't see why it would matter. There are places all over the world for terrorists to train, and one more wouldn't matter. Pakistan, one of our supposed allies, has terrorists training within it's borders. If it weren't for the military-led government of Musharaff, Pakistan would be the same as most all other Muslim countries: anti-American. Al Qaida has more of a presence in Iraq now, and probably many other parts of the world, than they did before this war started. Who's really winning?

As for saying Christian morality is better than Muslim morality, well, that's just moronic. It was Christians who started this war on misinformation and downright lies. It's Christians who made the interest on my student loans DOUBLE in one year. It's Christians who are purposely dividing this country. It's Christians who are widening the gap between rich and poor. Christian morality is no better or worse than Muslim morality. Both are non-existant in the extremes.

And yeah, this isn't Personal Computing.

I agree, this has nothing to do with computing, however,did'nt this all start because bin Laden blew up the trade center, and then we went after Hussan. Remeber Viet-Nam? Peace. That is the only way. Now, get back to you're computers.

Moved.  Watch where you post your articles.

Moved. Watch where you post your articles.

---Draginol

Yeah...when I first posted this, it ended up in Personal Computing, even though I changed the forum to Politics. I don't know why. I'll get to answering some of these comments later on. Thanks.---RW

I'll start from the bottom and go up:

In other words to win you have to be self defeating? Thats about the stupidest thing Ive ever heard. Have you actually thought about that statement?

--Beenthere

Tell it to the Allies in WW2 who pounded Dresden and Hamburg into dust and ash, rightfully dealing back 100 times what the Germans did to London. They had common sense and understood what kind of evil they were dealing with and were willing to take the necessary steps to bring that evil to a halt.
When you're confronting a people who simply aren't willing to listen to reason and just give us all a big, fat bearhug and say "let's get along", who want to, in fact would joyfully, dance on your grave, you have to do what you have to do.

You run around the world with your bad ass trillion dollar military levelling the infrastructure of one major city after another

---Beenthere

And...I'm sorry, what other cities have we levelled besides Baghdad, home of Sadaam the Nose-Thumber, about whom the UN whined for over a decade before Bush actually did something about him?

You destory the infrastructure and natural order that millions of people have lived by for decades ( which for many people is their entire lives).

---Beenthere


Blah, blah-blah, blah-blah-blah-blah. Sorry, nuthin' but pops and whistles on this end, pal.

Your army sets fire to the dead bodies of it enemies in order to try and flush more of the enemy out in order to kill em some more,

---Beenthere

Where did you get this one? A terrorist website? They're the ones who pack dead bodies with dynamite and C-4 hooked to remote detonators, so they can kill the people who come to claim the bodies.

imprisons hundreds of untried and thus innocent people, tortures and humiliates them,

---Beenthere

So, it's worse to take known combatants, make them a little uncomfortable and humiliate them a little bit in an attempt to get information, than it is to snatch completely, utterly innocent aid workers, teachers and journalists off the street, force them at gunpoint to make propaganda speeches and then behead them. Then, you send the videotape of all this to Al-Jazeera and/or post it on your website. That's all okay? Right.

I have to go to work now, but I'll be back.

Sometimes, to defeat the monster, you have to become the monster.

Sometimes to defeat a monster one need only be David.

You run around the world with your bad ass trillion dollar military levelling the infrastructure of one major city after another in order to "defend freedom" and all the other bullshit rhetoric that goes with it.

Hmmm, since when are we going around the world like Alexander destroying anything? Last time I looked we were only in Iraq and Afganistan and we are not alone in this BTW.

You destory the infrastructure and natural order that millions of people have lived by for decades ( which for many people is their entire lives).

Yea, the same ones who tried to destroy the infrastucture and natural order that we have lived by for decades right? I guess you chose to forget about that little detail.

Your army sets fire to the dead bodies of it enemies in order to try and flush more of the enemy out in order to kill em some more,

I love it when loonatics like you come up with these kinds of stories but ignore what the real criminals do. It's just like people like you to ignore the terrorist who use dead bodies to kill those who go to recover them.

imprisons hundreds of untried and thus innocent people, tortures and humiliates them,

Thus innocent? Last time I checked everyone is innocent till proven guilty, but that does not mean they were caught walking down the street doing nothing.

murders innocent civilians

Are you talking about US soldiers or the terrorist that kill innocent people cause they can't get to us? Schools, police stations, bus stops, restaurants, etc are not exactly military targets.

shoots up towns and villages for sport

You really need to stop reading terorist sites. And i thought Col gene was a sad individual.

gang rapes young girls after murdering their families and then subsequently murders that cunt once they are done with "it", etc, etc, etc.

So you think they are cunts? Who are you defending again?

And then you turn around and talk like your team is not already the monster? How much more fucking monsterous do you think you need to become?

You must be confusing us with terrorist who use airplanes full of innocent people and crash them into planes, who hide liquid explosives in their babies bottles to blow up planes, who hide weapons in schools and hospitals, who fight in civilian areas to use them as human shields, who blow up innocent people of their own race to hurt those of another. I thinkwe are after the wrong people here, we should be chasing people like you.

People like you are so full of shit. You've got your head so far up your own arse that its no wonder the world stinks of death the way it does.

You need to stop looking in the mirror and insulting yourself, that's what we are here for. You did a good job discribing yourself in that statement.

Rightwingers solution to reduce death and misery....... MORE death and misery. Well congratulations!!!

Ever heard of the phrase "sometimes more is less"?

See you in another 3 years. With attitudes like that, this ones gonna luv you long time G.I.

Now I know you really lost it. What the hell does this mean? I guess we are not as bad as you think we are since we will be here 3 years from now according to you. Get a life and leave the bullshit stories to experts like Col gene.

Back to Been there, continuing from post #11:

murders innocent civilians, shoots up towns and villages for sport, gang rapes young girls after murdering their families and then subsequently murders that cunt once they are done with "it", etc, etc, etc.

---Been there

Okay, are you actually getting this stuff from somewhere, or are you just making it up as you go along? I'm betting it's option number 2. Who's the stupid one here?

And then you turn around and talk like your team is not already the monster? How much more fucking monsterous do you think you need to become?

---Been there

Wow, you apparently have absolutely no clue how monstrous we COULD be, if we were so inclined. And why are you cussing at me? Another hateful, self-loathing, angry Leftie, I assume? You can't swing a dead cat these days without at least hitting one of you.

Nothing like good old America-bashing to get the blood going, huh? To what end, might I ask?
When your side and its true believers have ultimately managed to undermine everything we do, and you're forced at gunpoint to worship Allah, your nation herded into a worldwide Caliphate, your mother and sisters forced into burkhas and stoned to death for maybe wearing eyeliner or even accidently showing a finger or a lock of hair, maybe then you'll understand. But I doubt it. Nah, to you, America will still have been the monster. The evil aggressor.

People like you are so full of shit. You've got your head so far up your own arse that its no wonder the world stinks of death the way it does.

---Been there

Again with the pottymouth....tsk, tsk. You kiss your soon-to-be-burkha-clad mommy with that mouth? Advice:
Don't do it in public; they'll probably cut off your lips. Just remember, she's nothing but a baby machine. She has no value or purpose outside that of basic reproduction. Remember that, and you'll get by juuuust fiiiine in the new Islamic World Order you allowed to happen, and indeed supported.
Tell you what, Leftie, I don't know where you come from, but if you're an American, I'll say this: the world has stunk of death since 1973, when Roe v. Wade hit the books and said it was okay to kill innocent, unborn babies for virtually any reason whatsoever.
If you're European, your side over there supports both abortion AND euthanasia. Way to go.
And we Righties are the killers, huh? At least WE kill people who can, and want to, kill us.
Your side has taken more lives, and without even really trying, than mine ever will, and what lives we take, we take in our effort of defending your right to make your immoral, indecent and sick choices. Stick that in your "arse" and fart it.

Rightwingers solution to reduce death and misery....... MORE death and misery. Well congratulations!!!

---Been there

Nah, my solution to death and misery would be to inject you and all the other moronic, wrongheaded, America-hating traitors on the Left with some drug or other that enhances common sense and basic human compassion.
Wake you up so you can see just how idiotic and wrong you really, truly are. How much damage you're doing, and have already done without even realizing it. That would go a long way toward that particular goal.

Where's "Been There" been? Doesn't seem like he's "been" on this planet, does it?

Adamness: Don't be too quick to pat yourself on the back. I work alot, see, and my time is limited. I'll get to you. But let me start with this one:

As for saying Christian morality is better than Muslim morality, well, that's just moronic. It was Christians who started this war on misinformation and downright lies. It's Christians who made the interest on my student loans DOUBLE in one year. It's Christians who are purposely dividing this country. It's Christians who are widening the gap between rich and poor. Christian morality is no better or worse than Muslim morality. Both are non-existant in the extremes.

--Adamness

Are you talking about Christians or politicians? There's a difference; morality is one thing, political expediency is quite another.
The men who fight this war, the soldiers themselves, work, for the most part, under a basic code of morality and rule of law that their Islamic enemies do not. Sometimes that code may break down. That's war. No one is a paragon of virtue. But compared to the attrocities committed on the part of the Islamic terrorists, our troops have been Boy Scouts.
Christian-based morality is vastly superior to Islamic. I have seen and heard absolutely nothing to convince me otherwise. As to dividing the country, don't blame Christians. Blame the atheistic liberals on the Left. They're the ones driving the biggest wedge.


MasonM, steved, drmiler and Charles C.: Thanks for the support.

All others, my apologies for posting in the wrong forum. Thanks for your comments.

Adamness: I misspoke above, and it's not letting me edit. I should have said "often agnostic or atheistic, anti-war liberals." Sorry.

Hehe, I get it.

Are you talking about Christians or politicians? There's a difference; morality is one thing, political expediency is quite another.

So, once someone becomes a politician, they don't have to follow their Christian morals anymore? They're not obligated to help the poor or 'love their enemy?' Isn't that why people elect Christians?...So they WILL vote and act based on what their faith tells them?

But compared to the attrocities committed on the part of the Islamic terrorists, our troops have been Boy Scouts.

I agree that our troops have committed less atrocities than those they're fighting against, but that doesn't mean anything to me. Is murdering 5 civilians that much better than 10?

The 'insurgents' in Iraq certainly don't represent Islam as a whole. That would be like saying Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson represents all Christians, or David Duke representing all white people. And even if you think 'Christian morality' is better than 'Muslim morality,' so what? Does that mean it's no loss if a few extra end up dead? Would you want to make them all Christians? Comparing morality is a judgement call...I thought you weren't allowed to judge.

I should have said "often agnostic or atheistic, anti-war liberals.

Well atheist, agnostic, anti- war or not, that's not true. Less than 10% of America are atheists or agnostic. And you can be sure, we're underrepresented in Congress and the government as a whole whether it's local, state or federal. You can disagree with our choices or faith (or lack thereof) if you want, but is it really fair and just to deny us proper representation? We simply don't have the power to divide the country.

See, I'm a social moderate and a libertarian. I don't fit into 'liberal' or 'conservative.' Those two labels are what divides the country. Since when did 300 million people have to fit into only two groups? Most of America are moderates, and yet, nobody sees it that way. The President and his administration have repeatedly tried to isolate those who don't agree with them, whether they were France and Germany, or American citizens. We all make fun of Democrats for being spineless and weak-kneed, so I doubt they have the power to divide. I certainly do blame the administration for pushing everyone into the two camps of 'liberal' and 'conservative.'

So you can blame 'atheists' or 'agnostics' or 'anti- war' people all you want, but scapegoating the minority is a dangerous precident, and probably exactly what the current administration wants.

And one more thing. Even as an atheist, I'm probably a much better 'Christian' than most 'Christians' out there. My morality is certainly more reasonable and rational and compassionate than, say, the President.

So, once someone becomes a politician, they don't have to follow their Christian morals anymore? They're not obligated to help the poor or 'love their enemy?' Isn't that why people elect Christians?...So they WILL vote and act based on what their faith tells them?

---Adamness

Let's get real, here. Ideally, and in a perfect world, yes; that is why Christian people elect "Christian" candidates. But no one is perfect, not even us Christ-lovers.
I mean come on, for example....JFK was a devout Catholic....Clinton was Baptist (he even carried a bible when the photo op was there). Both were raging philanderers, and Clinton was a liar of the first magnitude (but that was okay, according the NYT's Maureen Dowd, because he gave "clever semantic clues" when he lied. She doesn't care for Bush's lies, somehow....I guess he's not cute enough. Or liberal enough, either one). I personally doubt either of them is enjoying the company of Jesus. That's not judging, by the way; that's stating an opinion, which is allowed.
How many politicians do you really think there are in heaven? I have no way of knowing, of course. But politics usually involves deceit and treachery of some kind and degree. and many, many of them end up using corrupt methods and shedding any pretense of ethics. That doesn't get you into heaven.

Look, I have to go right now. I'll be back later on to finish up here. Thanks for posting.

So, it's morally wrong to leave them to their own devices because innocent people might get hurt, BUT it's a good idea to fight viciously even if it means innocent people will get hurt.

??

And if GW ever gets called to the stand and put under oath about this, I'd expect him to tell the truth.

Dont expect the democrats to understand the difference. hell, they still support Sandy Burgler. The Ends justify the means! New Democrat slogan.