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CAN ISRAEL FIGHT TERRORISM WITH AN IRGUN PAST

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CAN ISRAEL FIGHT TERRORISM WITH AN IRGUN PAST

A look at the King David Hotel Bombing on July 22, 1946

from JoeUser Forums
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert looks straight at the camera and says without a touch of irony that Israel is "fighting terrrism" in Lebanon. Two days ago marked the 60th anniversary of the terrrist attack on King David Hotel at Jerusalem carried out by the members of the Irgun Gang whosr leader Menachem Begin rose to be the Prime Minister of Israel. In fact the father of Israel's present Foreign Minister Ms Tzipi Livni was one of the chief members of this gang whose activities Washingto DC will today condemn as "terrorism". I must say that Israeli society is highly ambivalent about the historical memory associated with this act and so my analysis should not be taken as a simple yesterdays terrorists are todays freedomfighters. I think the history of modern Israel if far more complex than a direct equation that sets a terrorist past of Israeli political establishment against the terrorist present of the Hizbullah. But history cannot be erased at will no matter how inconvieniet the facts of the past are. This sentence draws attention to a fundamental dichotomy that charecterises Israeli society today of which Amos has written so evocatively about: How doe contemporary Israel choose to remember its past. And today when Israeli jets are killing civilians in Beirut, how does it define a terrorist.

Palestine was mandated to the British after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire and Jerusalem was the capital of the mandated territory of Palestine. On July 22, 1946 a bomb went off in King David Hotel killing 90 civilians and brought Palestine essentially within the realisation of Jewish extremist groups like the Irgun Gang. For the first time in the political history of the modern middle east the efficacy of terrorism as a political weapon was demonstrated. This does not mean that Hizbullah terrorism is justified. I am only drawing attention to the fact that PLO and other organisations learnt from the Irgun Gang experience that spectacular acts of terrorism help garner political rewards and it is this fact that makes the present fight against terrorism suspect in the eyes of the world.

Ofcourse the Irgun Gang and its members became legitimate members of the Israeli political establishment and Israeli democracy does provided a framework for such a transformation. In fact the world has a lot to learn from the history of the Jewish struggle in Palestine and we can even argue quite correctly that in 1949 it was the Arabs states that betrayed the Palestenian cause. This bring me back to the question with which I began: What is Terrorism in the context of the Middle East? Is not the Hizbullah and Hamas following the footsteps of the Irgun Gang.
politics
24,804 views 64 replies
Reply #51 from JoeUser Forums Top
Please, please stop smearing the real col sanders with such an association.
Reply #52 from JoeUser Forums Top
I did not say Israel should have done nothing. I agree with almost ALL world leaders that Israel went far beyond what is reasonable for the capture of three soldiers. They are destroying two countries and people that had NOTHING to do with the capture of the soldiers!


World leaders have reasons for their beliefs: political expediency. They don't always say what they really feel. In another comment, Colonel, you stated that the Army taught you tactics. I absolutely believe that, because the US has a reputation for not knowing a damn thing about fighting unconventional war. Apparently, neither do the Israelis, but that doesn't let you off the hook.
Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #53 from JoeUser Forums Top
Bahu sounds like that episode from South where they had a counter on the screen counting how many times the sh_t is said. Only Bahu loves the words carnage, children, schools, hospitals and his favorite, dispropotionate. Will someone take it upon themselves to count how many times he says these words? Just for the fun of it.


For anyone to assert that what we are seeing is justified because three Israeli Soldiers were captured has lost any sense of sanity. To believe that the capture of three soldiers endanger the state of Israel as Bush said to justify the attacks by Israel is idiotic. Israel captures Palestinians all the time and what Israel is doing is punishing millions of people that HAD NOTHING to do with the capture of the three soldiers.


Col, If I had a wish, I would use it to stop you from ever using the internet again. The only thing worse that Bahu's rhetoric is your rhetoric. God, stop it already. Your worse than a broken record and its getting you no where. I'm willing to buy 2 copies of Object Desktop 2007 if Brad bans you from this site. You are no longer a person with an opinion, you're just another spammer.
Reply #54 from JoeUser Forums Top

Cluster munitions against civilians is not acceptable. I have provided a link.Link


This from your own link Bahu.

However, cluster bombs are not banned by any international treaty and are considered legitimate and effective weapons by many NATO governments.


Terrorist attacks are not acceptable as well but I do not see you complaining about that. You defend those who attack innocent people in order to do harm to the Gov't rather than attack the Gov't itself and t hen you complain when the attacked fight back and kill "innocent" civilians when attacking the enemy. What a wierd way of seeing things.
Reply #55 from JoeUser Forums Top
how can India, fight terrorism with a thugee past?
Reply #56 from JoeUser Forums Top
Cluster munitions against civilians is not acceptable. I have provided a link.Link


Why don't youy try reading your "own" link. I quote:


International Legislation
Although covered by the general rules of international humanitarian law, cluster munitions are not currently covered by any specific international legal instrument. So far Belgium is the only country to have issued a ban on the use (carrying), transportation, export, stockpiling, trade and production of cluster munitions.[4] However, several countries, including Austria, Australia, Denmark, France, Germany, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland have seen considerable parliamentary activity on cluster munitions. In some of these countries, there are ongoing discussions concerning draft legislation banning cluster munitions, along the lines of the legislation adopted in Belgium. Norway has also committed itself to an international ban on cluster munitions and recently announced a moratorium on the weapon.



And if you "ever" bothered to actually read what is posted......I posted verbatim from wikipedia along with a link showing that you were wrong back in reply #32. Along with me quoting from the Geneva Convention page. And BTW.....you're "still" wrong! Now lets see if you'll admit to it.
Reply #57 from JoeUser Forums Top
how can India, fight terrorism with a thugee past


Spot On !!! I agree.

Cluster Munitions as a tasctical battlefield device is not under discussion. But the use of cluster munitions against children, women and unarmed civilians.
Reply #58 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hezbollah will use whatever they can get to damage Israel as much as possible, including whatever their patrons can supply them


However, cluster bombs are not banned by any international treaty and are considered legitimate and effective weapons by many NATO governments.


The outrage the world has expressed is for the large scale civilian deaths. From time immemorial human societies have always bound themselves to a doctrine of propotional and gradduated response. In fact the more people that are killed in this round of fightin in the Middle East the more difficult will an eventual steelement be. The Bush and Blair dua talk of "Democracy" in the Middle East, presumably the sort of democracy they have introduced in Iraq. I think this does not fool anyone. They are trying to reduce Arab states and societies to little "homelands" without power and without security so that Israel will be the preeminenty military power in the region. I think people in the Middle East are not so dumb as to allow the Bush Blair game paln to succeed given the fact that there is a Western consensus behind such a move. Syria and Iran are the only real impediments to this plan along with Iraq. Iraq has been removed from the equation leaving only the other two. This New Middle Est Order so precious to the Christian Right and the Bush Administrastion palys directly into the strategy of Israel as it can exploit the situation to impose its own version of carthginain peace in the Middle East. The point it will this settlement provide Israel security. It will not and Arab resistsance will continue. The Arbs of the Middle Esat have not yet realised that as long an sectarian and ethnic division and dynastic divisions exist amonsgt them, Israel will always have the advantage.
Reply #59 from JoeUser Forums Top
I have repeatedly said that the use of cluster munituions agasinst civilians is considered by several world bodies including the UN to be illegal.
Reply #60 from JoeUser Forums Top
some of these countries, there are ongoing discussions concerning draft legislation banning cluster munitions, along the lines of the legislation adopted in Belgium. Norway has also committed itself to an international ban on cluster munitions and recently announced a moratorium on the weapon.

There is an ongoing program to ban these weapons and given the horriffic nature of the clusterbombs I wonder how you can even defend using such horrible thing against civilians.
Reply #62 from JoeUser Forums Top
some of these countries, there are ongoing discussions concerning draft legislation banning cluster munitions, along the lines of the legislation adopted in Belgium. Norway has also committed itself to an international ban on cluster munitions and recently announced a moratorium on the weapon.

There is an ongoing program to ban these weapons and given the horriffic nature of the clusterbombs I wonder how you can even defend using such horrible thing against civilians.


Do you even "bother" to read what you post? There seems to be 2 key words you seem to be missing! Those words would be "ongoing discussions". Discussions are NOT law. Belgium is currently the "ONLY" country to outlaw said munions. Your original statement said they were illegal. And in that statement you were "wrong"!
So cry us a river.
Reply #63 from JoeUser Forums Top
57 by Bahu Virupaksha
Wed, August 02, 2006 03:08 AM


Cluster Munitions as a tactical battlefield device is not under discussion. But the use of cluster munitions against children, women and unarmed civilians.


you mean like the Syrian rockets being used against innocent Israeli women and children? Fired by Hezbollah the Syrian and Iranian proxy.
Reply #64 from JoeUser Forums Top
Until the reasons for the fighting are addressed, it will not stop. Next year, we will talking about the same things and will be no closer to a REAL end to the violence. When an approach you use does not work, only a fool or a truly ignorant person keeps doing what DOES NOT WORK. That is what we have scene in the Middle-East since 1948! Bush is a master of this approach and so is Israel. For Bush just one more speech. For Israel just one more attack. Is this the BEST we can do?