Yes, I'm a liberal...

Welcome, M-Post.

If you' re interested in discussion, I have a few questions about the abortion thing:

1. How do you resolve the question of a woman's right to choose life or death for another human being? This is not meant to be a loaded question; if you don't believe another human being is invovled, I won't complain.

2. Speaking of other human beings involved in abortion, what about the father? As things currently stand, a woman can unilaterally decide to carry a baby to term and keep it for herself. In this case, the father is legally required to support the mother and child, even if he did not want to keep the child. There's an obvious "equal rights" question here, but it's not quite the question I intend to ask.

Rather, regarding the father, would you say that it's reasonable or unreasonable to allow the father to "abort" a child he doesn't want, by simply refusing to support such a child, regardless of the mother's choice to keep the child?

To me, these are a couple of the more complicated and confusing aspects of abortion. I hope that you are interested in these issues, and can give me your reasoned liberal thoughts on them.

Thanks in advance!

I believe in a womans right to chose for or against abortion for HERSELF... I believe in Civic Values and Civil Rights.. I believe in changing the way we treat the environment. I believe in fair rights for women (I don't know why this comes as a seperate issue than Civil Rights, but for some reason we always split it up.) I believe in a more defensive stance for the military.

I am a conservative.

I believe in civic values and civil rights. The major political party I am most closely associated with are the Republicans which started as the anti-slavery party. It is the party that fought a civil war to free slaves. Its leaders helped bring the vote to African Americans and women against opposition from the Democratic party. 

I believe that civic values and civil rights also means personal responsibility and duty to help society as opposed to being a burden on society or advocate that someone else do more for society than what I myself am willing to contribute.

I believe in protecting the environment.  I am most closely associated with the party that created the EPA, that created the national park system, and invented the concept of conservation in American politics -- the Republican party.

I do not believe that the enviornment should be treated as a political token to be abused for votes from misinformed voters.  I do not believe environmentalism involves insisting that other people do more than I am willing to do to protect the environment. 

I believe in equal rights for women. I am most closely associated with the party that helped give women the right to vote. The party that put the first woman on the supreme court.  I am part of the professional class that actually hires and pays women fair wages for their work as opposed to those who advocate what other people - not themselves - should do.

I believe our military should be used for defense. It should not be used as a police force to be sent to places like Yugoslavia or Somalia or other places. It should be used strictly to defend the United States and its interests.  I believe the 9/11 represented an act of war by Islamic Fascism and that part of defending our country is doing what is necessary to prevent further attacks such as helping defeat Islamic Fascism across the world.

I am a conservative. I believe people should have control over their own destinies. I belive that people should not advocate policies that they themselves are not affected by. 

I am a conservative. I believe in the power of the people. I believe that citizens should have the right to vote for the laws that they live by as opposed to having laws created by judges.  If I don't like a law, I do not believe that the judicial system is how it should be changed but instead I should have to persuade the majority of the validity of my position and then achieve change through the elected legislature.

I am with you M-Post. I hate to call myself a liberal. Some issues I agree with and other I don't. But I would definately say that I am left leaning. I voted for Bill Clinton but couldn't vote for Kerry. I also believe in a woman's right to chose, taking care of our environment.

I do have to say that I see many right wingers who I think are completely unrational and don't want to be bothered with facts. Not all but some. They don't seem to have any use for a different point of view.

And Draginol regardless of the history of the Republican party you have to look at where they stand on the issues now. I don't think that anyone would say that they are for civil rights and saving the environment now. They are the party of and for big business. I have always felt that the Democrats are the party for the regular working people and I think that is why I have always leaned Democrat.

If you' re interested in discussion, I have a few questions about the abortion thing:1. How do you resolve the question of a woman's right to choose life or death for another human being? This is not meant to be a loaded question; if you don't believe another human being is invovled, I won't complain.2. Speaking of other human beings involved in abortion, what about the father? As things currently stand, a woman can unilaterally decide to carry a baby to term and keep it for herself. In this case, the father is legally required to support the mother and child, even if he did not want to keep the child. There's an obvious "equal rights" question here, but it's not quite the question I intend to ask.Rather, regarding the father, would you say that it's reasonable or unreasonable to allow the father to "abort" a child he doesn't want, by simply refusing to support such a child, regardless of the mother's choice to keep the child?To me, these are a couple of the more complicated and confusing aspects of abortion. I hope that you are interested in these issues, and can give me your reasoned liberal thoughts on them.

Okay Stute, I know this wasn't directed to me but I'll just let you know my view point. I don't think it is a human until it is born. Until it is born, it is a potential human. I think that the man makes a choice when he chooses to have unprotected sex. If he doesn't want to support a child he shouldn't be having sex. In the perfect world, only responsible adults in a committed relationship who have already discussed these kinds of issues would be having sex but unfortunately that's not reality.

Good points from both of you here.. lets see if I can shed some light on my thoughts a bit...

1. How do you resolve the question of a woman's right to choose life or death for another human being? This is not meant to be a loaded question; if you don't believe another human being is invovled, I won't complain.

In all honesty Abortion is probably one of the hardest and stickiest debates I can think of. Some rank really really close, but just don't reach the edge of craziness this one does.. IMO, I don't agree with abortion. I wouldn't want the person I'm with who would be having my child to get an abortion. That's just me though. The problem is that some women get abortions because they can't handle a child, and don't want to put them into our already overtaxed adoption/foster system. (at least I believe it's overburdened, I may be wrong). They abort the child to save it from a life of poverty and meager living... I don't personally agree with it.. but I don't live in that person's shoes. I figure that it's the woman's life, and it's her's to live.. not mine to tell her what to do.

2. Speaking of other human beings involved in abortion, what about the father? As things currently stand, a woman can unilaterally decide to carry a baby to term and keep it for herself. In this case, the father is legally required to support the mother and child, even if he did not want to keep the child. There's an obvious "equal rights" question here, but it's not quite the question I intend to ask.

Another really tricky part of this. I believe the Father should also have a say in it. I even think that most of the time in abortions the guy does have a say, he's for it just as much.... Though that obviosuly can't be the case. The problem is a lot of personal things come into play here; mainly the womans body. It's her body.... If the father wants to keep the child, yet the woman doesn't.. how can you percieve forcing the woman to go through with the pregnancy in her body? Yet at the same time, how can you deny the father's right's as a father? I really can't answer this one at all...

None of these makes you a liberal.  The issue of abortion is one that crosses party lines, although it is generally seen as Liberals for and conservatives against (but then how would you pigeon hole Arnold Swartzenegger and Bob casey?).

And none of the other issues are even devise between parties.

What I think is you were raised a liberal and so think you are.  But your actual persuasion is still forming, and you are going to be shocked when you finally stand on one side or the other.

Draginol;

A lot of good points from you as well, showing that in truth most Conservatives will probably hold just the same belief's and ideals of things that I stated at the top. The problem is with how each party is percieved, and at least 'somewhat' tries to fight for. Liberals, as of this day and age, are generally 'more' for those things listed than conservatives are; or maybe I should just say more known.

In literal truth, I believe the vast majority of American's want mostly the same things. A safe country to live in, and civil/religious freedoms. The problem is (and BOTH parties do this) that the parties build themselves up on platforms based on certain specific issues. Each chooses what they want to be 'shown' as representing their views and they then plaster their viewpoints everywhere they can trying to get the word out. They then become known to a lot of people as "the civil right's party" or "the capatalist party" etc....It's a problem with how politic's work.

I think really both parties are a lot more alike than we really all realize; both sides just go about trying to get things done in different ways. The parties will both majorly fubar some things, and beautifully work others.

Also, both parties, even within the last 40 years have flip flopped platforms a lot. They both like to jump all around the road. I havn't spent much time on that one, but this even comes from my brother (who could quote from memory varies articles/books etc theorizing this {he's also a deep deep conservative.. LoL}).. and I'll try and research this some and post later to back it up if someone wants me too. If I can't find anything on it I'll gladly admit I'm wrong.

None of these makes you a liberal.

Hehe, true true.. I think maybe I just believe I'm a liberal because I've liked the Democratic nominee's 'somewhat more' for a while? (Kerry was bad though... *shudders*)

Hehe, true true.. I think maybe I just believe I'm a liberal because I've liked the Democratic nominee's 'somewhat more' for a while? (Kerry was bad though... *shudders*)

You need to talk to the newest member of StarDock.  His name is (here at JU) Zoomba.  I think the 2 of you have a lot in common.

Womens' rights movement was about:

Establishing your own credit (without your husbands permission).

Consideration for employment, advancement, and pay rate based on your skills, experience, and performance (without involving your employer in your family's care plans/needs).

Access and choice of using birth control is a private matter (also without your husband's permission).

Fair treatment from other people (husbands are not "other people" - they are husbands. I don't treat other men like I treat my husband - he's the man I chose to live my life with - I treat him as "special" and he treats me special).
When a man holds a door open for me I say "Thank you" (I thank my husband too - I appreciate him).

I was taking an elevator with a co-worker - a gentleman held the door and let us get on first - we said thank you.
After he got off she said you don't see that much anymore nope - not many gentlemen left.
I said some darn fool in the 60's told men we didn't want them to be gentleman. Men took us at our word.

Men are not a just sperm bank and a support check. It takes two to have unprotected sex and end up pregnant. The "fault" is 50/50.

I reminded my niece after the "wardrobe malfunction" - - I remember when the goal was "you wouldn't have to show your Boobey to get the job! (sorry for the crudeness / boldness of this statement).

I know - I'm old fashion - I was modern just a few decades ago.

I am an American.

I lean right and I lean left, each issue gets its own stage.

While I hold views that span both sides of middle, I see Liberals as fascists who believe that their ideals should be legislated and forced upon everyone else. I see Conservatives as more inclined towards less government interference in people's lives.

Of course, there are exceptions, these are generalities.

While I hold views that span both sides of middle, I see Liberals as fascists who believe that their ideals should be legislated and forced upon everyone else.

Well I can agree with that somewhat. I believe it's mainly because of media focus that we think this way though. Media likes to focus a lot on the more contriversial politicians because they seem to hold more shock value, which is a big pull in the ratings.

I see Conservatives as more inclined towards less government interference in people's lives.

Now this I can understand, but right now it doesn't seem so true.. since we have a siege of governmental controls being thrown at us constantly now.. by 'mainly' the conservative party.

Though I do agree some that the generalities hold true.

Thank you for the comments and information fiesty_in_ohio. I agree with what you stated, and also wish more men would act more like gentlemen. I try to whenever I can Now even I'm 'almost' told to do so by the Navy.. LoL

I am an American.I lean right and I lean left, each issue gets its own stage.

Nothing wrong at all with this pose either. Is better to think through each issue than to just take one parties word for it.

Locamama said:

I don't think that anyone would say that they {current conservatives} are for civil rights

I call B.S. on that statement.

Like hell I'm not, or other conservatives aren't, [b]FOR CIVIL RIGHTS.

What most of the conservatives I know may say is that we are not AFFIRMATIVE ACTION or other programs that try to right past wrongs by using those wrongs against others.

I am all for the idea that all men and women were created equally, but I'll be damned if I believe that a Black person or a woman is entitled to special preferences simply because generations long before mine may have wronged that class of people.

Liberals most certainly can not claim to have cornered the market on the idea of supporting civil rights. Hell, it could easily be argued that the only thing that liberals have done in supporting civil rights, especially currently, is to continue to pass laws to take away the rights of some to grant more rights to others. That, and giving just enough money to support causes to make followers of those that can benefit from the handouts.

I am an American.I lean right and I lean left, each issue gets its own stage.

I couldn't have said it better. This is totally me. I consider myself a "conservative", but only in loose terms.

I am pro-choice when it comes to abortion. Me, personally, myself... I am pro-life... but I believe in our freedoms and our choices that are a given right under our great nation. To take that away is wrong. I also agree with M-post in that who is to judge a woman that decides it is better to have an abotion then to have a child that will be given up into the *way* overburdened foster care system.

Civil rights - I believe in everyone's equal opportunity. What I don't believe in is giving someone any advantage based on race, sex, religion, or anything besides their willingness to work for it. Why are we one of the few countries in the world that gives a college scholarship not based on overall achievement, but by skin color? And before anyone even tries to jump on me for this, my aunt received a minority scholarship to a local college... and she is white. I do not agree with any governmental program that does this. Leave that to the private institutions such as the NAACP. Give scholarships/jobs/bonuses or whatever else to those who are the work hard for them.

Environment - I think both parties are for helping the environment, they just go about doing it in different ways. Liberals tend to yell, scream, chain themselves to trees, etc.. while conservatives actually go to the large companies/corporations and tell them they must fix what they are doing wrong. One gets media attention... one doesn't.

Women's rights - See above. Same applies. If the woman does the job better/is better qualified, hire her.

Military - 9/11 is a good example of what happens from a defensive stance. I don't like to use that as an example, but it's true. Do I believe we should aggresively promote war and destroy eveyone that doesn't agree with us? No. There are other ways to promote diplomacy and world peace. But after 12 years of sactions not doing anything, and Saddam thumbing his nose publicly at the world... something needed to be done.

Another thing to add to this... gay marriage. I believe everyone has a right to the pursuit of happiness. If that means marrying someone they love that is the same sex, then I believe it is wrong of the government to prevent this. Life, libery and the pursuit of happiness. Ring a bell? What ever happened to seperation of church and state, anyways?

So yes, I address each issue on it's own. I only truly consider myself conservative because I don't go about shoving my values and beliefs down others throats. *winks at liberals*