The Iraq War after Saddam Fell was a DISASTER!




Bush, Cheney and his supporters point to continuing and past military operations as examples of progress in Iraq. Our military have and will continue to be unequaled when fighting military engagements. The have proven that when they destroyed the remaining military of Saddam and when they go into areas where the insurgents operate.

The problem is that our troops have had to fight the SAME battle OVER and OVER again. When they conduct an operation to suppress the insurgents in a city or area, as soon as our forces depart the enemy begins to regroup for more attacks against U S Forces.

The issue has been from the Day Saddam fell is that we NEVER had anything near the numbers of forces required to establish and maintain control of the areas that support and allow the insurgents to organize and conduct their attacks from day after day. If Bush had listened to his military and sent the 500,000 the original Op Plan 1003 called for, when a town or area was cleared of insurgents or foreign elements, we would have been able to keep a force level in that city or area to PREVENT the insurgents from reestablishing a force to again create trouble. Because there were not nearly enough forces we could not prevent these areas from becoming a trouble spot all over again and then we were forced to return and fight the same battle a second, third or fourth time.

The Iraq war will be the subject for study at our military schools for many years to come. There are two basic issues that will be studied - The WHY we invaded Iraq and the HOW we conducted the war after Saddam fell!
6,151 views 24 replies
Reply #1 Top
You are right for the wrong reasons. Troops can't win Iraq. House to house engagements just put our soldiers in harm's way and force them to make decisions that they are later vilified for.

Instead we should have left our ground troops out of the fight until the citizenry overwhelmingly longed for an end to the destruction, and therefore would see insurgency as a continuation of their suffering, instead of their "liberation".

You do a disservice to the people you claim to support when you call for more of them to be used as targets.
Reply #2 Top

You do a disservice to the people you claim to support when you call for more of them to be used as targets.
Reply By: BakerStreetPosted: Tuesday, June 20, 2006

 

don't you See the more people killed plays right into genes hands then he gets to continue to vilify the military along with Bush.

Reply #3 Top
I do not know what military training you both have had but what you are saying goes against ALL the military tactics we have employed successfully. More troops do not make more targets because with the higher troop levels you PREVENT the insurgents from being able to conduct such operations. In addition, the higher troop levels would have enable the control of the hundreds of Ammo Dumps and weapons cashes that are the source of the weapons and explosives that are being used to kill our forces.

One thing is correct - It should have been the Iraqi People that removed Saddam when that had enough of his cruelty and NOT the UNITED STATES Military!!!
Reply #4 Top
I think the real obstacle is political.

If the U.S. wanted, it could establish martial law and sweep each city from end to end, and bomb anybody the caught driving a car after curfew or without clearance.

But this isn't just a war zone. It's also a nation full of free Iraqis, trying to form their own Iraqi government, establish their own Iraqi law and order, and apply their own Iraqi dreams and values to the country.

So the coalition forces have to take the longer, more complicated and difficult route: limited engagements followed by premature pull-back, to avoid creating the unfortunate impression (and fact) of U.S. disregard for Iraqi concerns and Iraqi sovreignty.

Far from being a disaster, I find the Iraq thing to be a progressively better and better thing. Challenging, difficult, definitely not the easy way, and probably not the best way. But a good way, and better than doing nothing at all.
Reply #5 Top
Wow. Something new & different from Gene.
Reply #6 Top
How many times can you write about the same thing? You are going to make it real hard for Bush to be re-elected in '08.
Reply #7 Top
http://moderateman.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=121304

here you go gene, enjoy the carnage.
Reply #8 Top

You seem pretty invested in your hope that the US fails in Iraq. 

Okay, fine, let's leave Iraq and let the terrorists take control of it. Is that your solution?

Reply #9 Top
"Okay, fine, let's leave Iraq and let the terrorists take control of it. Is that your solution?"


There was an interview with an Iraqi military commander last night on Frontline that spoke volumes. He said in no uncertain terms that the US should not leave Iraq, and that if we did we could count on horrific results.

It is common sense, really. Iran, Syria, and others would pour millions into their pet insurgencies to destabilize the nation. Granted, if we are there for a lot longer and the Iraqi people refuse to step up to the plate, then I won't care. From what I see and hear, though, the current complacency is defeatable, so long as we show the insurgency to be.

There was a great part of that Frontline where they interviewed a journalist that spent a lot of time with insurgents. He said that between the first and second elections there was a huge change in attitude. He said taking part in an election would have been unthinkable in the beginning to the Sunni insurgents, but by the time of the second election they realized that the government was going to take hold, and they'd better take part. They actually GUARDED polling places from attack.

That's a slight change, but the change will become more progressive as time goes on so long as other, outside powers aren't allowed to bait civil war. People there realize that civil war is the aim, and they aren't buying into it nearly as much as we think. It is becoming easier and easier to blame the Zarqawi types, and that shows that the cut and run attitude is counter productive.
Reply #10 Top
Draginol

I do not HOPE we fail. However, I know that the issues that have faced Iraq since its formation are not resolved. The three factions do not get along and the loyalty is to their faction not Iraq overall. The level of violence has been able to get to this level because when the power that Saddam exercised, which kept these sectarian differences from active conflict, was not replaced with the level of control by the U S Forces due to a lack of manpower. That was evident from the first day when the rioting broke out and it is clear we did not have the force levels in country to control the factions and keep them from moving to action.

If Bush had allowed what is a military decision to be handled by those with the military experience, we would have sent the "Overwhelming Force" levels called for by the Iraq invasion plan. Then the sectarian violence would not have gotten to the level it is today and when we turned the security over to the new Iraqi government they would have had a much better chance of being able to keep the sectarian differences under control.

The likely scenario is that after we leave the factions will overwhelm the new government's military and police forces and they will “have at it”. I also believe it is likely that the sectarian loyalties will show up in the new police forces (it already has) and even in some elements of the new military. The dislike of the factions in Iraq has existed for more then a 100 years and the U.S. staying only insures we spend billions more and have more dead and wounded. It is time for the people of Iraq to make this new country work or settle the century old disagreements in another way.

I can understand why the leaders who we enabled to come to power want us to stay. I bet if you asked ALL the Iraqi people the vast majority want the United States to leave NOW!
Reply #11 Top
Saddam was a person that needed to be removed from power in Iraq. The problem is that he should have been overthrown by the Iraqi people NOT the U.S. Military!
Reply #12 Top
The American military has been used as a police force post Saddam which is why the occupation has failed. The US military is purely a machine of destruction, it follows the Prussian tradition. The British 'soft cap' policy works much better which is why British controlled areas of Iraq are much calmer than US controlled areas.

The US cannot peace keep!
Reply #13 Top
"Okay, fine, let's leave Iraq and let the terrorists take control of it. Is that your solution?"

As long as the US is there there will be a constant stream of foreign Jihadists and an even more inexhaustable stream of domestic insurgents who are angry at the occupation of their country.

Only the Iraqis can deal with the terrorists, if they are willing, which is why America cannot stay and "win". Civil war is inevitable, the only question is who will emerge as dominant.
Reply #14 Top
I bet if you asked ALL the Iraqi people the vast majority want the United States to leave NOW!


And I bet if you asked all the JU'ers they would want you to stop these pointless articles.


Saddam was a person that needed to be removed from power in Iraq. The problem is that he should have been overthrown by the Iraqi people NOT the U.S. Military!


How many times do you have to be told this? My goodness. The Iraqis TRIED TO OVERTHROW SADDAM SEVERAL TIMES......that is where the MASS GRAVES CAME FROM.
Reply #15 Top
Observer

I agree it is VERY likely that Civil War will be the mechanism of resolution in Iraq. The Moslem world and most other non Moslem countries will then place the blame for that Civil War at our door step (where it will belong). Again I say the Iraqi People should have been the way Saddam was deposed NOT the U.S. Military. Bush has created no Win option because if we stay we will see more deaths, injuries, billions being spent and we create more enemies the longer we remain as occupiers in Iraq. When we leave the Civil War that will most likely follow will be our fault. As Powell said, break it and it is yours. Well Bush broke it and America has the problem. Great going George!!!!!!!!
Reply #16 Top
I agree it is VERY likely that Civil War will be the mechanism of resolution in Iraq.


You have been talking about civil war for forever. It's not happening.

Just like your prediction of a draft. I guess you were wrong about that too.
Reply #17 Top
"You have been talking about civil war for forever. It's not happening."

It is arguable that civil war is on the horizon what with the current level of violence in Iraq. We must also remember that this bloodshed takes place with hundreds of thousands of US and coalition forces present. Can we imagine the carnage there will be when political circumstances mean America and its allies leave Iraq?
Reply #18 Top
IslandDog

There is a partial Civil War Right NOW in IRAQ. WHAT WORLD DO YOU LIVE IN?
Reply #19 Top
A different one than you thankfully. There is no civil war in Iraq col. Forget what the NYT tells you.
Reply #20 Top
NYT, CNN, Phila Inquirer, Washington Post, AP et al.


Iraq war going well?

Re "A principled stand" (Our Opinions, June 20):

The Daily News is entitled to its own opinions but not to its own facts. Some congressmen such as Howard Berman choose to go with the flow and be ranked with the winning side while others like Brad Sherman choose to make a statement by not participating in a game where the deck is stacked.

The facts are, the Iraq war is not going well; it is already a civil war. The Bush administration has for some time been setting the new Iraqi government up to be the fall guy when it fails. If Bush has so much faith in the Iraqis, why did he wait to notify them of his visit only five minutes before he recently sneaked into the (ahem) safety of their country? Yep, everything is going well in Iraq according to King George. Ask the parents of the two soldiers that were just found beheaded; you might get a different assessment.

- Philip Wilt

Van Nuys

Open season

Re "Death toll reaches 2,500" (June 16):

George W. Bush talks about amnesty for Iraqi insurgents - this while our children are still in Iraq fighting and dying. This is the second time he has declared open season on our soldiers. Mentioning amnesty while combat operations are still occurring is just another way of saying "bring 'em on." Historically amnesty is offered when aggression is halted as a way for the populace to rebuild their civil society.

Oh, but wait - there's more. Just to further prove their state of oblivion, White House spokesman Tony Snow said that 2,500 "is a number." I think these two statements say it all. This occupation is disastrous and is not for the security of the United States. We must get out of there now.

- Sharon Graham

Huntington Beach


Nir Rosen: The Civil War Continues

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June 09, 2006
Nir Rosen: The Civil War Continues

Interesting week so far. Abu Musab al Zarqawi, "the Sheikh of the Slaughterers," has been slain. Everybody wants a piece of this. The Jordanians are claiming a role. The Americans of course, Iraq's security forces. The US ambassador to Iraq hails it as a "good omen," which sounds rather weak, if the best the US can come up with in Iraq are omens. Perhaps they will say it's another "turning point" or a "milestone," because we haven't had enough of those since the Occupation began. Perhaps we have "turned the corner," in Iraq, which, after the thousand corners claimed turned by the Americans, makes for an interesting geometrical structure. Perhaps this will "break the back of the insurgency"? No, it is not even a good omen, it is an ominous omen.

Iraq is in the midst of a civil war. This civil war may have begun the day the Americans overthrew the old order in Iraq and established a new one, with Shias on top and Sunnis on the bottom, or it may have begun more specifically in 2005 when Iraq's police and army finally retaliated against the Sunni population for harboring the resistance, insurgency and the terrorists like Zarqawi who targeted Shia civilians. Sectarian cleansing began to increase and suddenly Sunnis felt targeted and vulnerable for the first time. Sunni militias that targeted the Americans became the Sunni militias that defended Sunni neighborhoods from the incursions of Shia militias and they began to retaliate following Shia attacks. But the Shias of Iraq have the police and army at their disposal, not to mention the American military, which has become merely one more militia among the many in Iraq, at times striking Shia targets but still mostly targeting the Sunni population, as the Haditha affair demonstrates.

So time to dispel some myths. Zarqawi did not really belong to al Qaeda. He would have been more shocked than anybody when Colin Powel spoke before the United Nations in the propaganda build up to the war and mentioned Zarqawi publicly for the first time, accusing him of being the link between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. Zarqawi in fact did not get along with Bin Ladin when he met him years earlier. He found Bin Ladin and the Taliban insufficiently extreme and refused to join al Qaeda or ally himself with Bin Ladin, setting up his own base in western Afghanistan instead, from where he fled to the autonomous area of Kurdistan in Iraq, outside of Saddam's control, following the US attacks on Taliban controlled Afghanistan in late 2001. Zarqawi only went down into Iraq proper when the Americans liberated it for him. He had nothing to do with al Qaeda until December 2004, when he renamed his organization Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, or Al Qaeda in Iraq as it has become known.

Why did he do this? It was a great deal for him and Bin Ladin. Zarqawi needed the prestige associated with the Al Qaeda brand name in global jihadi circles. He could not claim to be fighting a more important battle than merely the struggle for Iraq. He was fighting the Crusaders and Jews everywhere and doing it in the name of Bin Ladin, still the elder statesman of Jihad and the hero of the anti Soviet jihad which Zarqawi all but missed by the time he arrived in Afghanistan. For Bin Ladin and his deputy Zawahiri it was also a great deal. Al Qaeda was defunct. Its leadership hiding in the Pakistani wilderness, completely cut off from the main front in today's jihad, Iraq. When Zarqawi assumed the al Qaeda brand name he gave a needed fillip to Bin Ladin who could now associate himself with the Iraqi jihad, where the enemy was being successfully killed every day, and where the eyes of the Arab and Muslim world were turned to, far more than Afghanistan.

Zarqawi was not very important in the first place, and hardly represented the majority of the resistance or insurgency. When he arrived in northern Iraq he was a nobody. After the war he descended into Iraq proper and began to organize the disparate foreign fighters who had come to fight with Saddam's army against the American invasion. Shocked by the disappearance of Saddam's army and the easy American victory, these arab fighters from Syria, Jordan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, were without leadership, and Zarqawi was a charismatic leader, and fearless, according to all accounts. Although he claimed several significant attacks, such as the United Nations bombing and the assassination of Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq leader Muhamad Bakir al Hakim, Zarqawi and his foreign fighters were a numerically insignificant proportion of the anti American fighters.

It took the United States to make Zarqawi who he became. Intent on denying that there was a popular Iraqi resistance to the American project in Iraq, the Americans blamed every attack on Zarqawi and his foreign fighters, and for a while it seemed every car accident in Baghdad was Zarqawi's fault. The truth was that much of Iraq's Sunni population, alienated by the Americans who removed them from power and targeted them en masse during raids, supported and participated in the anti American resistance. Even many Shias claimed resistance. Muqtada Sadr, the most powerful and popular single individual leader in Iraq, led two "intifadas" against the Americans in the spring and summer of 2004, and his men still rest on their laurels, claiming they too took part in the Mukawama, or resistance. But by blaming Zarqawi for everything the Americans created the myth of Zarqawi and aspiring Jihadis throughout the Arab world ate it up and flocked to join his ranks or at least send money. Zarqawi was the one defying the Americans, something their own weak leaders in Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria and elsewhere, could not do, having sold out long ago. It was then comical when the Americans released the Zarqawi video out-takes and mocked him for fumbling with a machine gun. Having inflated his reputation they were now trying to deflate it. But it was too late. Jihadis were not going to trust the Americans. Zarqawi had proved how good he was at killing Americans and Shias and evading capture. Whether he was proficient in using a particular machine gun was besides the point, he was very good with bombs, with knives, and certainly successful with his strategy. See the excellent blog by "The Angry Arab" for more on this.

The bulk of the resistance and insurgency was Iraqi and they had different goals than Zarqawi. Often Zarqawi's fighters clashed with indigenous Iraqi fighters, who wanted only to liberate Iraq and regain political power, but who did not care for Zarqawi's puritan ways or his global jihad. It is likely that they may have provided the tip that cost Zarqawi his life. But in death Zarqawi struck one final blow for his cause. He had come to Iraq to fight the infidels and become a martyr, gaining entry to paradise. And so he did, the infidels finally killed him and his supporters now believe he is in paradise. This only proves that Iraq is the place to go to if you want to gain entry to paradise, kill infidels, and become a martyr. More will flock to replace him and avenge him. Expect to see a new group, naming itself after Zarqawi, claiming responsibility for attacks targeting Shia leaders or Shia shrines in Iraq, but also in Lebanon or Saudi Arabia, where tensions between Sunnis and Shias have been simmering since the war in Iraq.

We in the media are often pilloried for only reporting "the bad news" in Iraq. But there is no good news. Its too dangerous to even tell you how bad things really are, but they are worse than what you see on the media, not better. The insurgency is passe, Iraq is about the civil war, chaos, anarchy, random and deliberate violence everywhere. And it is spreading throughout the region. Instead of stabilizing the Middle East, the US war in Iraq is tearing it apart, destabilizing it, reviving radical Islam and jihadism and giving a bad name to reform and democracy.
Reply #21 Top
We in the media are often pilloried for only reporting "the bad news" in Iraq. But there is no good news. Its too dangerous to even tell you how bad things really are, but they are worse than what you see on the media, not better. The insurgency is passe, Iraq is about the civil war, chaos, anarchy, random and deliberate violence everywhere. And it is spreading throughout the region. Instead of stabilizing the Middle East, the US war in Iraq is tearing it apart, destabilizing it, reviving radical Islam and jihadism and giving a bad name to reform and democracy.


One man's opinion. Not fact by a longshot. And he couldn't be more wrong that "there is no good news." Further, he apparently considered the status quo ante "stable," which it was not.
Reply #22 Top
If you listen to the reporters that move with the insurgency, you'll know that there is no civil war in Iraq. If there were you'd be seeing many, many more killings. There is limited sectarian violence, and there are people trying to bait civil war, but unfortunately for the Col most of the Iraqi people are smart enough to see that they are being played.
Reply #23 Top
Col can't prove his civil war theory with columnists either. So now he tells us it's a "partial" civil war. I just love how you make bs up as you go along.

Here is the pefect one for you col. The title alone is perfect.

https://forums.joeuser.com/Forums.aspx?ForumID=3&AID=121226#939533
Reply #24 Top
Nir Rosen has got to be one of the most boring speakers I've ever heard. It is physically draining to sit through one of his talks. I've listened to him in person and on C-Span because, despite his poor oratory skills, he does make interesting points. And he has done so here, for the most part.

Iraq is in the midst of a civil war. This civil war may have begun the day the Americans overthrew the old order in Iraq and established a new one, with Shias on top and Sunnis on the bottom, or it may have begun more specifically in 2005 when Iraq's police and army finally retaliated against the Sunni population for harboring the resistance, insurgency and the terrorists like Zarqawi who targeted Shia civilians. Sectarian cleansing began to increase and suddenly Sunnis felt targeted and vulnerable for the first time. Sunni militias that targeted the Americans became the Sunni militias that defended Sunni neighborhoods from the incursions of Shia militias and they began to retaliate following Shia attacks. But the Shias of Iraq have the police and army at their disposal, not to mention the American military, which has become merely one more militia among the many in Iraq, at times striking Shia targets but still mostly targeting the Sunni population, as the Haditha affair demonstrates.


"Civil War" and "sectarian violence" is a matter of semantics. Was Lebanon a party to civil war or sectarian violence from 1975 until 1989? Yugoslavia between 1991 and 1995? Sri Lanka to this very day? What's going on between Fatah and Hamas in West Bank and Gaza--civil war or sectarian violence? It's hard to say, and there's usually a political motivation to decide on one term or the other. But "Civil War" in Iraq did not begin in Iraq in the immediate aftermath of Saddams fall. The insurgency itself didn't even really begin taking shape until May or June of 2003, and at that point it was Baathist-influenced, if not outright operated. The 2005 estimate is much more accurate.

As for the rest of what he says, I'll give my take. I don't know enough about Zarqawi's background or activities to say whether Rosen is right or wrong. I suspect Rosen doesn't know all the details either, as the savage from Zarqa was a shadowy figure in his own right. When was he in Iraq? Was he treated in Baghdad in 2002? I don't know. I don't. Rosen probably doesn't either. Zarqawi was important, as he was a principle antagonizer in the Sunni-Shiite bloodletting that continues, virtually unchecked. The Shiites were only going to take so many car and truck bombs on marketplaces and mosques, assassinations of mullahs and political leaders before retaliating. And now the Sunnis will have hell to pay. The Sunnis can count themselves lucky that it's only death squads they have to fear as of yet. Imagine if the Shiite military deployed heavy artillery and helicopters against a town like Fallujah, Tikrit, Ramadi, or Hit.

Rosen is right here:
It took the United States to make Zarqawi who he became. Intent on denying that there was a popular Iraqi resistance to the American project in Iraq, the Americans blamed every attack on Zarqawi and his foreign fighters, and for a while it seemed every car accident in Baghdad was Zarqawi's fault. The truth was that much of Iraq's Sunni population, alienated by the Americans who removed them from power and targeted them en masse during raids, supported and participated in the anti American resistance.


True. The more one looks the more it turns out that native Iraqi Sunnis are and have been, since the beginning, the overwhelming majority of the insugency. They enjoy widespread popular support throughout much of Sunni Iraq. The roadside bombs that sadly nickel and dime our troops are almost always the work of the native born Iraqi Sunnis. Al Qaeda in Iraq is a small group who maintains their "street cred" like a street gang trying to horn in on another's territory. What they lack in numbers and grass roots support they make up in sheer viciousness, intimidation, and savagry. The Sunnis are pissed off that we humiliated them through our invasion and occupation. I don't feel sorry for them one bit, but I am aware that they are pissed and why they are. Sunnis have their own peculiar logic about Iraq. They've always been in power in Iraq, going back to the Ottoman Empire, and they believe theyare more numerous than they are--there's a widespread belief among the Sunnis that they are the majority, and that when the reality that they are not is recognized by anyone, it is a manifestation of some conspiracy against them, by either the Americans, or (gasp!!) the Jews.

The bulk of the resistance and insurgency was Iraqi and they had different goals than Zarqawi. Often Zarqawi's fighters clashed with indigenous Iraqi fighters, who wanted only to liberate Iraq and regain political power, but who did not care for Zarqawi's puritan ways or his global jihad. It is likely that they may have provided the tip that cost Zarqawi his life.


I'm in accord. Zarqawi pissed off the wrong people for too long, and the let him know he was more trouble than he was worth.

But in death Zarqawi struck one final blow for his cause. He had come to Iraq to fight the infidels and become a martyr, gaining entry to paradise. And so he did, the infidels finally killed him and his supporters now believe he is in paradise. This only proves that Iraq is the place to go to if you want to gain entry to paradise, kill infidels, and become a martyr. More will flock to replace him and avenge him. Expect to see a new group, naming itself after Zarqawi, claiming responsibility for attacks targeting Shia leaders or Shia shrines in Iraq, but also in Lebanon or Saudi Arabia, where tensions between Sunnis and Shias have been simmering since the war in Iraq.


Now Rosen is trying to sell snake oil. I think he's full of s$%^. It's just as, if not far more, likely that the nationalist elements of the insurgency will take the reigns and destroy much of what's left of the Al Qaeda in Iraq (AQII) network. The Sunni nationalists do not, and will not trust foreigners who wish to emulate Zarqawi, and will not provide them entry or safe-haven in Iraq. How will the foreigners operate if the Shiite militias AND the Sunni insurgents are flushing them out?

We in the media are often pilloried for only reporting "the bad news" in Iraq. But there is no good news. Its too dangerous to even tell you how bad things really are, but they are worse than what you see on the media, not better. The insurgency is passe, Iraq is about the civil war, chaos, anarchy, random and deliberate violence everywhere. And it is spreading throughout the region. Instead of stabilizing the Middle East, the US war in Iraq is tearing it apart, destabilizing it, reviving radical Islam and jihadism and giving a bad name to reform and democracy.


Unfortunately, he's right more than he's wrong. There is some good news. But it in no way comes even close to making up for the bad news. The goal should be security, stability, and an end to the rampant violence. Democracy should be the means, but the Administration has painted it as the ends. I'm not sure whether this is civil war, as I don't know what the bar for that is, but it certainly is "chaos, anarchy, random and deliberate violence everywhere." It's also financially draining for the taxpayers, and morale draining for troops who can expect tours of duty in Iraq indefinitely. What will be their breaking point? Six, seven, eight tours? I admire the bravery and selflessness of the men who re-sign for combat, but they cannot do that forever.