Haditha: War without Honor?

from JoeUser Forums
  On Okinawa for the first time Marines in the Pacific had to deal with significant numbers of civilians. Our platoon came upon a large cave whence emanated a burst of rifle shot. The platoon retaliated with dominant firepower for some thirty seconds. There was no return fire — just screams, groans and cries. Slowly several women and children emerged from the mouth. The Marines were aghast; the first team of the first squad cautiously — making certain the civilians were not booby trapped — approached the bloodied file. Another, a tiny woman, emerged carrying in her arms a mortally wounded child. Others followed, carried out or limping and crawling; in their midst was a Nip soldier, arms raised, bowing, pleading mercy. The civilians pushed him away and shouting angrily apparently for his desperate action leading to their bloody fate. In all there were some forty civilians, of whom eight were dead and most wounded whom the corpsmen attended.

The platoon was guilt-ridden throughout the day and cursed the coward who had fired from the cave. Obviously there is no correlation to Haditha other than the uptightness of men in combat. As an ex-marine, I find it incredible that Haditha was a deliberately crazed reaction to avenge a fallen comrade. There has been no reports, however, that rifle fire had ensued from the houses in question; and even if there had been Marines would have riddled the houses before kicking down the doors to size up the situation.

I fear, if indeed true as transpired, Haditha sumbolizes frustration among troops in a war gone awry when Marines — not poorly trained reservists — no longer conduct themselves with combat discipline and moral sense.

          

Copyright © 2006 Richard R. Kennedy All rights reserved. Revised: June 14, 2006.

http://stevendedalus.joeuser.com

 

politics
12,771 views 42 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'll be glad when all sides of the story are out in the open and the situation is finally addressed, however it may end. I don't think we'll be held with any esteem by those who hate us no matter how it goes, so I hope that we don't "make an example" of these men if they don't deserve it, just to serve our image.

Glad to see you here. I was beginning to wonder if we'd have to come track you down.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yeah, it seems no matter what, there's always some cover-up to wade through.
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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yet another ex Marine, willing to betray active Marines to feed his own ego.

You jump to a conclusion when you have insufficient evidence to even back a theory. You state what you consider facts here, when you have NO idea what really happened.

You have turned your back on those Marines, if you ever utter the words "Semper Fi" again, you are lying through your teeth.

We don't yet know if those Marines acted without honor, that will come out in time. However, you have proven here, with your own words, that there is NO honor in you.

Why are you so quick to condemn these Marines? Why are you such a coward?
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Why are you so quick to condemn these Marines?
You have a serious reading problem. You also have colossal balls calling me a coward.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
As an ex-marine, I find it incredible that Haditha was a deliberately crazed reaction to avenge a fallen comrade.


Ok Coward, you tell me, what part of this did I not understand?

Sure, you went on later to say:

I fear, if indeed true as transpired


However, you had already condemned the Marines in question in your earlier statement. You didn't qualify your condemnation of them, you merely played judge and jury, as if those Marines had no right to anything more than the trial by public opinion you obviously support.

You weren't a coward in your younger years, and I thank you for your service. However, if you can sit there on your butt now, and betray those Marines without knowing crap about the situation, you sir, are a coward. You are truly an "ex-Marine" and not the "former Marines" who retain their pride and faith with those who serve today. Apparently you would rather make idiotic statements about their guilt than give them the dignity of due process. They have earned more than that, especially from a vet.

My only regret here is that I am forced to call you out in print instead of to your face. However, here you get to defend yourself... something those Marines won't get to do in your pitiful court of public opinion.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
Richard R Kennedy, man without honor.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't see anything in the above for you to be such an asshole about, ParaTed. "I find it incredible" means he has a hard time believing it. He's saying that if it is true there has to be more to it than just marines going nuts.

#6 is out of line, shameful, and frankly if you had any self respect you'd remove it. It shows how quickly some people will backstab servicemen the moment they differ with them politically. You are doing EXACTLY what you are accusing stevendedalus of.

The mood here these days is sickening, and it needs to be changed. The level of discussion has tanked in the presence of this junk. WHat we need is to drag a few more people like stevendedalus in here so you guys won't consider yourselves champions by default.

Sorry, steven, but this junk has gotten on my nerves lately. I apologize for joining in the off topic rant.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
I admire your integrity to stand up for the truth no matter how difficult it is as an ex marine. Haditha will remain seared in the collective memory of the Iraqi people for eons to come. I have said the samr thing in myLink

I would like to add that some of the responses I got were just crazy.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
You have a serious reading problem. You also have colossal balls calling me a coward.


I don't see anything in the above for you to be such an asshole about, ParaTed.


#6 is out of line, shameful, and frankly if you had any self respect you'd remove it. It shows how quickly some people will backstab servicemen the moment they differ with them politically. You are doing EXACTLY what you are accusing stevendedalus of.


Amen to all of that.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Ok, so he turns his back on his fellow Marines and convicts them without evidence. I guess that is the new honor.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Good to see you back Steven.  I hope you post more.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
As an ex-marine, I find it incredible that Haditha was a deliberately crazed reaction to avenge a fallen comrade. There has been no reports, however, that rifle fire had ensued from the houses in question; and even if there had been Marines would have riddled the houses before kicking down the doors to size up the situation.


You state this as fact when I have seen nothing proving this as fact. Why don't you wait for the investigation to be concluded before condemning these Marines. I do not believe that our Marines would murder a family if they were unprovoked. You said there were no reports of rifle fire from the home and you know this how? Because the citizens of Haditha, which is a hotbed of the insurgency said so? They have no motivation for vilifying the American troops do they? Is that the only scenario you think would justify the marines opening fire? After an IED attack, following procedure they searched the homes within 50 yards. What happened from there only the Marines and victims know.

The problem is that it's hard to distinguish citizens from insurgents. They are not wearing uniforms marking them as the enemy. That doesn't mean that our soldiers aren't just as dead when these "peaceful citizens" detonate an IED. I just think we need to give our soldiers the benefit of the doubt until the investigation is completed. Why is everyone so quick to believe the worst and condemn our soldiers?
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
" Ok, so he turns his back on his fellow Marines and convicts them without evidence. I guess that is the new honor."


Wow, would have never expected such a backhanded retraction... not.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
As A Former marine I stand and wait for all the evidence to be presented before I even am willing to make statements about the incident at Haditha. I afford the marines in question the same I would afford anyone, Innocence till guilt is proven. In todays climate { I thank the left for this} to many times the military is tried and convicted in the court of public opinion, before one fact is made public.

We are so willing to believe the worse about our military, and specially the corps { Again the far left strikes} I prefer to remain Semper Fidelis.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
It boggles the mind. Read it again LW. I know he has a good grip on vocabulary, I think his detractors don't.

"As an ex-marine, I find it incredible that Haditha was a deliberately crazed reaction to avenge a fallen comrade."


It's his opinion is based upon what he writes above that line, which is hell-and-gone beyond that any of you can put forward. If ParaTed really had respect for servicemen, he'd grant that kind of service some respect. He's saying that based upon his experience the pet theories, on both sides, don't seem to add up.

I've said almost the EXACT same thing on my blogs about Haditha, but because stevendedalus is known to be against the Iraq war and a Lefty in general he gets smeared and I get nods. It's shameful, especially when they use his service as a jab against him when we have nothing to tell us he is "without honor" other than a differing opinion on Iraq.

If ParaTed ever, EVER makes this kind of statement on my blog he'll never comment on any of them again. stevendedalus is a lot more charitable than I am. Anyone that would tell a WW2 vet who served as stevendedalus did that he is "without honor" based upon a single opinion on a messageboard has none himself.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
First of all Bakerstreet, I did thank him for his service and I have the utmost respect for that part of his life. Nothing in my life even qualifies me for anything less than utter awe in Stevendedalus' background.

However, that being said, I can't let his completely unfounded accusations and total betrayal go unnoticed.

Let's do this...

Stevendedalus gave us an account of a terrible situation on Okinawa during WWII. He tells the story, complete with the explanation of why U.S. Marines would have fired upon innocent civilians. He is right, there was no war crime committed there, only one cowardly shooter.

Let's put that story in the context of Haditha today

Let's say that Stevendedalus' account here was the official news release by the USMC. However, the press does their normal hatchet job and what hits the AP is...

On Okinawa for the first time Marines in the Pacific had to deal with significant numbers of civilians. The platoon fired upon it with dominant firepower for some thirty seconds. There was no return fire — just screams, groans and cries. Slowly several women and children emerged from the mouth. -making certain the civilians were not booby trapped — approached the bloodied file. Another, a tiny woman, emerged carrying in her arms a mortally wounded child. Others followed, carried out or limping and crawling; In all there were some forty civilians, of whom eight were dead and most wounded.


A U.S. Congressman and Former Marine took that report and made statements against Stevendedalus and his fellow Marines present that day.

How different would Stevendedalus look at Haditha if he was willing to give those 24 Marines the same respect and benefit of the doubt that he asks of us here?
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
For the record:

Richard R. Kennedy, I retract all statements calling you a coward. I do consider your accusations and words in this artical to be cowardly, but we both know that there is a huge difference between a person committing a single cowardly act and a person deserving of the label "coward".

I read your account of that terrible day in Okinawa and thought you were leading up to showing an understanding and empathy towards the Marines in Haditha, when I read on to find a total disregard for them, while emotionally charged from the first part, well... I'll admit, my rhetoric went beyond the reasonable.

One war veteran to another. I don't expect you to excuse my words, but I do expect a person with your background to give our Marines today the same respect you expect given to you for your experiences and sacrifice for our nation.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
This is true, because as I said in my original response, we all know who he prefers to give HIS 'benefit of the doubt' to, and it's never been America. Are we supposed to read each article as if we know nothing of the author's history here?

Hah, I'd like to see you behave that generously with me a time or two.


True Little Whip. Sevendedalus never gives our troops the benefit of the doubt... "Where goes the benefit of the doubt, there goes the heart"
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
He has given them the benefit of the doubt by using the same "if" everyone else does. Both of you are kind enough to leave it open ended, and yet draw conclusions about the war and our society based upon what you think MIGHT have happened.

The difference is, based upon what you have seen and read you lean toward believing them innocent, so you skew your wrath toward the MSM and those you think are blaming them without proof. stevendedalus, from his experience and what HE has read, tends to think otherwise. Sadly for him, stevendedalus isn't in the Popular Front for JU Jingoism that thinks it rules the forums.

His aren't the right "ifs" to please you. If you want to go back and look at all the "ifs" on this forum that tend toward assuming Democrats are guilty before they have been in front of a jury, we can.

If putting an "if" is good enough to warrant offering opinions about them, and "if" is good enough to use to call the people whose families were killed at Haditha liars, then an "if" ought to be good enough for offering an opinion about the situation at Haditha in terms of our troops.

If you don't like "ifs" then none of us should have any comment at all, one way OR the other.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
If you don't like "ifs" then none of us should have any comment at all, one way OR the other.


I made my comments WITHOUT any accusation towards steven, but it's true enough that steven can get jumped a little easier than some of us. Although I disagre with steven around 99% of the time I have found him to be an aticulate and well presented writer and enjoy reading his presentations.

BTW baker it's not up to you to decided who can or cannot comment on anything here, whether you agree or disagre with the comments.

Ted backed off and apoligized, why are you still carping about it?
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
BakerStreet... his accusations came before the "if" and sorry, but I've never made any assumptions of their innocence. One place where Stevendedalus and I do agree is that neither of us are so naive that we would deny that being a U.S. Marine (or member of any other U.S. Armed Service, sadly does not make a person incapable of war crimes.

My beef with him is only that he expects us to give him and his buddies the benefit of any doubt about that terrible day in Okinawa... but he is quick to condemn other Marines.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
"BTW baker it's not up to you to decided who can or cannot comment on anything here, whether you agree or disagre with the comments."


Nor is it up to the current clique to police the boards for what they consider to be patriotism. You comment, ParaTed comments, I comment, and we all get it as hard as we deserve it for the ass ignorant things we say. I never said anything was up to me, though I have a few ideas about how things might be balanced out around here a bit better.

We'll see how things go.

P.S. it was a backhanded apology that didn't address post #6, and frankly I don't buy it.
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
24 by BakerStreet
Thu, June 15, 2006 3:26 PM


have a few ideas about how things might be balanced out around here a bit better.

We'll see how things go.


you could always switch sides and become a liberal. hahahahhah


P.S. it was a backhanded apology that didn't address post #6, and frankly I don't buy it.


not your call, it's stevens.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
P.S. it was a backhanded apology that didn't address post #6, and frankly I don't buy it.


It was a retraction, not an apology
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
We'll see how things go.


We all make our comments and respond to each other in various ways. Whether we agree, disagree, congratulate or condemn, we usually end up on friendly terms in the end.