Do I need your views shoved down my throat?

Respecting dissent is a two-way street

from JoeUser Forums

Why is it that the group that claims tolerance and open-mindedness as its mantra so intolerant and close minded in practice? What I speak of is the political left's tendency to interject their political beliefs into every venue that they can while at the same time, actively working to prevent those who disagree with them from having the ability to express their beliefs.

If I watch the MTV Music Awards, I can expect to have some left-winger denounce the war in Iraq.  If I was the Oscars, I can expect to be treated to more anti-US policy rhetoric along with some environmentalist ranting from someone who gets around by personal jet. If I watch Comedy Central or go to a concert or buy a music album or even play an on-line game without someone telling me that their point of view (always the left-wing point of view) is the only "correct" view and those who disagree with them are mean or cruel or more commonly "ignorant".

On PowerUser.TV, we recently discussed how an anti-war protester was protesting in the video game "America's Army" (a game made by the US military as a game/recruitment tool).  My response was that that user has every right to do that.  But I did note the irony that the US military allows the protester their say while left-wingers work nation wide to ban military recruiters from publicly funded campuses.  Tolerance, apparently, is a one-way street.

During the segment, I argued that this sort of thing tends to backfire because it is just another example of anti-war opponents trying to shove their views down the throats of everyone else and few people like that. I mentioned that I happen to support US action and that there had been some pretty positive results in Iraq that seem to be forgotten (20 million people no longer living under Saddam, free elections, etc.).  I never implied that I supported US action because I thought we should "liberate" Iraq. 

In response, on the PowerUser.TV comments a number of people complained about my beliefs.  In fact, they universally used the word "ignorant" to describe my views.  Apparently, ones knowledge on a subject is dependent on how closely your opinion matches that of a left-winger.  The more you disagree with a left-winger, the more ignorant you are.

The left loves that word "ignorant". It is their way of smugly dismissing people's opinions without having to really consider them.  The people insulting me on PowerUser.TV don't know me. They have no idea how much I know or don't know.  All they know is that I mentioned, very briefly, that I happen to support US military action in Iraq. That's it.  That was enough for them to decide that I'm "ignorant".

Anyone who has bothered to look into my background, what I've done and written and especially anyone who knows me personally I suspect will conclude that I'm not "ignorant".  The problem with so many on the left is that they cannot accept that intelligent, well educated, well informed people might have seen the same things they've seen and come to different conclusions.

If I discuss that topic with people who disagree with my conclusions about liberals/left-of-center people, I usually get some sort of moral equivalence argument. Someone will point out Fox News or some right-wing whacko.  If you point out Michael Moore you get Ann Coulter thrown in your face.  But the pattern is usually something that can most charitably be described as "Look at these hundreds of examples" with moral equivalence being "Oh  yea, here's a counter example" as if that makes the two things equal. 

You would be hard pressed to find truly equivalent examples of right-of-center people forcing their views on others. A left-winger watching Nascar doesn't have to worry about one of the drivers coming out and saying "And those of you who don't support the war, you are ignorant cowards."  Even during the heated recent election, right-wing celebrities didn't go on and say "Yea, the John Kerry is a fucking idiot." (the way several celebrities did to Bush or Bush supporters). 

And as we see on that PowerUser.TV thread, it's not me or right-wingers going on and saying how ignorant or cowardly or stupid or uneducated left-wingers are.  What's really ironic is that the left's response to the segment proves the point.  Center of right people (such as myself) are regularly subjected to left of center dogma in inappropriate venues. But we don't riot about it. We don't try to shout down those who do it. We get annoyed about it and that's about it.  That I even mentioned my position (not even making a much of a case for or against the war in Iraq) brought out more posts than any show we've had all using the word "ignorant" and some of them saying things like "Well those people protesting the war are just trying to wake you up."

Apparently, some opinions are simply the "correct" opinions. Those who disagree are "ignorant" and need to be educated. Incorrect opinions need to be subverted, buried, hidden and those who have those opinions shouted down and shamed.  The problem with that strategy, in a democracy, is that the voters tend to have the last laugh. Americans don't take kindly to bullies.

31,586 views 67 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
It's just so much easier to dismiss your opposition as ignorant boobs who know nothing about nothing than to engage them in an argument that might require some thought.

Or some soul-searching. Or some conversation. Or some fact-checking.

We have a big job ahead of us, you know: fighting the good fight.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think you are choosing to see what you wish to see and, remembering nothing of the last president.

I'm not sure how people who have the political majority in nearly all areas can pretend to think they are "bullied".

As much as you've seen entertainers shooting off their mouths and, saying what I believe are inappropriate things that favor the left, there have been many examples of the same thing happening from the right.

I think that comparing the views of the "general" public to views of the spoiled elite, making some stupid rant on T.V. is like comparing Republican to Democrat, or the poor to the rich.

If you give "examples" of the "liberal left" as you put it, why do you expect others to sit there and not fire back? The fact of the matter is, demonizing is demonizing. Whether you are on the "right" or "left". There are examples on both sides. So why even bring it up?

You make the point that people are calling you "ignorant" and, these people don't know you. You are right on both counts. But for you to compare my personal beliefs to some rappers, some movie stars or, a big guy that apparently doesn't know what a shaving razor is.....is equally wrong. You say yourself that you made YOUR political views known via PowerUser.TV. How do you differentiate that from what you are complaining about?

I don't know what others have written. I don't know if you are ignorant or not. I don't even care. But if you make your opinion known, you are going to get blasted no matter what side you're on.

Still, you do exactly what you are claiming others are doing. You are grouping all the "left" together. You are calling the left intolerant and closed minded. If you think that is what I am, you are ignorant. At least on this point.

If you re-read your own article and, the first comment......what is open minded and tolerant about anything you both have said?

You seem to make it clear that you don't want to have the left interject their opinions when they can.
Yet you do.
You give examples
Yet you make it clear that you are unwilling to consider other examples that don't support your arguments
You claim the anti-war people are shoving their opinion down your throat
Yet you do not acknowledge that they are having a war and thus, your political beliefs shoved down theirs

I have no idea what people said to you. If they dismissed you out of hand, we both know who is ignorant.

This post and subsequent comment are all stick and no carrot. You expect what you yourself are not willing to give.

Those of us that are hanging out in the middle, sometimes left, sometimes right, are sick of all of this crap.

Noone is right 100% of the time. Until a person is willing to concede this, they have no hope of objective argument.

PC
Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top

As much as you've seen entertainers shooting off their mouths and, saying what I believe are inappropriate things that favor the left, there have been many examples of the same thing happening from the right.

Such as...

I don't see the right interjecting their opinions into non-relevant venues. 

Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Incidentally, as an engineer, I have to work with generalities.  I don't believe there is a monolothic left or right. I do think, however, there are sets of behaviors that are distinct to the majority of each group.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
I hate generalities too, and hate to make generalizations, but I agree whole-heartedly with where Brad is coming from here.

The people that preach tolerance are quite often those most ignorant in practicing it. Those that want to "fix" the world's ills and are bashing the current administration are doing so with no real plans, or no different or differing plans on how to correct the problems they are complaining about.

If there was nothing to complain about at all, there'd still be something found to complain about in order to widen what power could be attained for the liberal causes and their representatives. Without that happening, there'd be no "stick" to use on the people from the left that are chasing the carrot that continues to be dangled well out reach of those that it's been promised to.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think anti-war people should take thier next vacation in Iraq, spread thier happy happy joy joy feelings there and see how much love they can grow from the experiance. That might buy some respect in my book. Other than that, we are there for the oil right? Funny, my fuel bills have not decreased.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
One look at the comments section of joeuser on any political issue is a clear proof that the right is as intolerant as the left. Any reasonable leftish comments are completely shouted down, leaving only the 'not so reasonable' lefties. So I have to agree with TheGuyPC, you are just seeing what you want to see.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top

One look at the comments section of joeuser on any political issue is a clear proof that the right is as intolerant as the left. Any reasonable leftish comments are completely shouted down, leaving only the 'not so reasonable' lefties. So I have to agree with TheGuyPC, you are just seeing what you want to see.

I definitely agree that right wingers are pretty likely to shout other people down. But you usually have to go to a political forum or some other discussion area to actually be exposed to it. By contrast, the left doesn't seem to recognize there is a time and place for things.  The JU right wingers may shout people down on JU but they're not interupting your concert or an awards show or your video games to shout you down.

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
hmmm....what I find interesting (to Maurice the anonymous), is that the left can still come here, free of charge, and post, for the most part, anything that they want.

But let a rightwinger go to DU, and have him/her post something, and see just how long they last.

By far, I see the left want to shut up those who oppose them. Just look at how Christians are viewed, or...look at how the pro-life, or the anti-gay marraige folks are looked upon and talked to.

Sure, there are many on the right that are as intolerant as a telephone pole meeting up with a scooter, but by far, the left is much worse, on the whole.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
definitely agree that right wingers are pretty likely to shout other people down. But you usually have to go to a political forum or some other discussion area to actually be exposed to it. By contrast, the left doesn't seem to recognize there is a time and place for things. The JU right wingers may shout people down on JU but they're not interupting your concert or an awards show or your video games to shout you down.



10000% in total agreement. The celebrities (on the left) seem to feel that everyone should have to listen to them (think Dixie Chicks and radio stations and fans boycotting them). But let someone, say, Toby Keith....say what he believes (Angry American song), and the left comes undone (again, Dixie Chicks).

NOTE: I am using Toby Keith & the Dixie Chicks as examples, but really, it is all over the place.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top

"Such as...

I don't see the right interjecting their opinions into non-relevant venues. "

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Well that all depends on what you feel is a non-relevant venue.

You are on the right. You interjected your political beliefs into PowerUser.Tv.
I've never watched it myself, but is this a political broadcast?

The US Military released a game/recruitment tool.
Is this an appropriate venue?

I've seen Condoleeza Rice, Hillary Clinton, John McCain and others speaking at various colleges commencement ceremonies.
Is this an appropriate venue?

You say that if you point out Michael Moore, you get Ann Coulter thrown in your face.
Do you think Ann Coulter is in any way a decent, tolerant and open minded person?

He made some books and movies. He rarely makes public appearances. You can take him or leave him.
Ann Coulter is constantly on Fox News in particular. She also has some books. But if you want to watch Fox, you can expect to hear flurry of name calling, finger pointing and downright demonizing.
Does Michael Moore demonize? I'm not sure. I DO know that you can choose to ignore him and he's gone.
Does Ann Coulter? Can you turn her off? Sure. But, you can turn off MTV also.

The Dixie Chicks have criticized the war and the president via country music.
Is this an appropriate venue?

Randy Travis had a minor hit with "Point of Light" a campaign slogan straight out of Bush Sr.'s mouth
Is this an appropriate venue?

It's hard to argue with generalizations and demonetization's therein. It is a tactic that purposely "blurs the line" leaving no room for opposition. This fact is compounded when you use examples, expecting none back. And even further when you create a classification such as "appropriate-venue's" without defining exactly what that means. What is "appropriate" to you in one circumstance may not be in another. You don't remember the "Pro war" "Pro Bush" examples because they don't make you mad. They are "Patriots"... "Good for them". "They support our troops.".

Anyone who is anti-war or, doesn't like this president is some kind of coward,
Bush bashing, liberal hypocrite with no plans of their own who is "bullying" the
party that holds power in nearly every conceivable way?

You say that apparently some opinions are simply the "correct" opinions (referring to the left).
Yet you haven't conceded one point or even acknowledged that there may be a valid point of view
that you don't subscribe to............. at all.

If you wish to express the opinion's - that you have
lead by example. Otherwise you're defeating yourself.

and, as for this..........
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If there was nothing to complain about at all, there'd still be something found to complain about in order to widen what power could be attained for the liberal causes and their representatives.
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The right wing/ Republicans would NEVER do this. Right?
[***************************************************************************************************
And this.........

"
Reply By: Nitro Cruiser Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2006
I think anti-war people should take thier next vacation in Iraq, spread thier happy happy joy joy feelings there and see how much love they can grow from the experiance.
*

I think a better idea would be for YOU and YOUR condescending attitude to take that vacation in Iraq
and see what has and hasn't been accomplished. Billions of dollars and thousands of lives are gone.
What have we gotten so far?

By the way, this is yet another sweeping generalization. "anti-war people" are "happy happy joy joy" people who are looking for love.
i.e. weak, faint of heart, lacking in intelligence, unpatriotic.

This is another good example of what this article is about. But look who's doing it.
This is no discussion really. This is just about hating the left and how the left hates the right, from the "right" point of view.
Nothing wrong with that. But it is what it is. Pointless.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
hmmm....what I find interesting (to Maurice the anonymous), is that the left can still come here, free of charge, and post, for the most part, anything that they want.

But let a rightwinger go to DU, and have him/her post something, and see just how long they last.
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Are you really comparing this site to Democratic Underground?
I thought this was Joe User. Not Joe Republican Underground User.

While I can come here for free and, appreciate the fact.......I have purchased from Stardock and I would like to think that I have contributed in some small fashion.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
why don't you read who I was talking to, and what I was talking about?
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
I was not speaking of coming here and posting. What I was doing, was comparing this site with another well known "tolerant" site. This was AFTER Maurice posted about the right wingers shouting down the left.

On the "tolerant" site of the "tolerant" side, the rightwingers are just banned.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
, I'm completely lost.

Either way, it happens on BOTH sides. That isn't right and, shouldn't happen. If right wingers are banned anywhere, it lends itself to censorship. If they are that busy kissing their own asses, they don't deserve comment or attention.

Brad is absolutely correct to point out the hippocrisy of the left. It IS there.
I just countered that the same holds true of BOTH parties and, it's US who need
to change.

You don't win friends without finding common ground. It's there, THAT is the "good fight".
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
Dixie Chicks and radio stations and fans boycotting them


so...one member of a pop music group dares to opine her disapproval of the man who holds the office of president. her remark consisted of a single sentence. if there was a way to compile, evaluate and categorize every public criticism uttered or published by artists and performers about every president of the united states since washington, this specific remark s would almost certainly be counted among the blandest 5%. enlarge the source pool to include editorialists and pundits and i'm guessing 2% would be more realistic.

egged on my their am & fm imams, hundreds of thousands of right-thinking outraged self-proclaimed c&w fans--a fair number of whom milk every microgram of umbrage possible from the zillions of open lesions they suffer due to an alleged unending flow of stuff being powerforced down their throats (think of a prilosec ad) when they're not arming themselves to ensure they'll not be silenced--responded to this single sentence by coalescing in hope of preventing the speaker from continuing to earn a living or, in some cases, going on living.

not satisfied with an apology nor mollified by the passage of time, the drama continues.

mino...great example of ummm. hell i dunno.

what was your point again?
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
my point is this, Kingbee, though, I am not sure why I am going to use my time to explain it to you.

The point is this: The Dixie Chicks gave their opinion. Fine, it is their right. So, fans and radio stations gave their opinion in the way that they could, boycotting their music. The Dixie Chicks cry a river, saying it is not fair that fans of country music would do that.

In other words, the left could not handle what they dished out, like usual.

All I ever see you do, though, Kingbee, is defend the left, no matter what it is they do. If there is one person on all of these boards that I can depend on, to come rally around the liberal flag, it is you.

How does the statement go: Blind patriotism to one's political party is the Political Hack's last refuge?

I know you are an intelligent person, Kingbee, I can read what you post. Too bad I terribly disagree with 99% of it, and the majority of my disagreement is the way you carry yourself in a debate, i.e. "mino...great example of ummm. hell i dunno. what was your point again?" To that I say, read what I said

Chris
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
and, after re-reading your post....lolololol

that is good ole, typical Kingbee. You degrade an entire group of ppl with generalizational insults, while crying about their own personal opinion.

In other words: the country fans (why didn't you just go on and call them uneducated, ignorant hillbilly rednecks? That is what you were getting at, right? But instead of just being simple, you had to put in your own "intelligent" description?) shouldn't have been allowed to be offended....

Whatever, Kingbee...whatever
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
The point is this: The Dixie Chicks gave their opinion. Fine, it is their right. So, fans and radio stations gave their opinion in the way that they could, boycotting their music. The Dixie Chicks cry a river, saying it is not fair that fans of country music would do that.

In other words, the left could not handle what they dished out, like usual

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O.k. this statement just doesn't hold water for me.
If the "Dixie Chicks" cry a river saying that it is not fair that fans of CW music would boycott them over their opinions, how does that automatically translate into the "left" not being able to handle what it dished out?
Again, the "left" is a generalization. How do you criticize another persons generalization and follow it up with one of your own?

I think Kingbee's point was more based in the "what freakin' difference does it make" frame of mind. In the grand scheme of things this doesn't equate with treason or, censorship of anyone. Their words were not associated with any great societal change. Nor was it an epiphany. Without the right making them an issue, most of us wouldn't care less what they think. I for one don't care. And I like country music. Hell, I don't even mind uneducated hillbilly rednecks-as you called them. Though I've met very few and I'm just guessing as to how educated they were. The few I have known were actually proud to be a "rednecked hillbilly". So I'm not sure that this is a huge insult. I understand what you meant though.

Without Fox News and the likes beating the point into peoples heads, over and over again,
it would have been long forgotton. In many cases, these peoples opinions would have never been heard.
Unfortunately they were. And they are still being heard.

And as Kingbee said..... "the drama" continues. Why is the real question.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Let's remember the Dixie Chicks said this while in France. I believe that's what upset people the most.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
That is a very good point and, one I had forgotten.

Still, they don't even speak for themselves well. They certainly don't speak for me.
Hey! They could move to France! Maybe that would make the issue go away.
No, I guess they are BOTH famous for their wine. Or whine.....oh, crap I'm confused
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
Great post Brad!!!!

I couldn't agree more with what you said,

The true irony about the liberal doctrine is that they don't see how intolerant they are of people with Conservative viewpoints, while they are preaching about how we need to be more tolerant of people with liberal viewpoints!
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
The true irony about the liberal doctrine is that they don't see how intolerant they are of people with Conservative viewpoints, while they are preaching about how we need to be more tolerant of people with liberal viewpoints!

I'm not sure that this is true. Americans use the word 'liberal' in a somewhat unusual way (compared to the rest of the planet) to refer to the Left in general. By this token socialists, anarchists, trotskyists, communists etc are all 'liberals'. In fact Liberals (properly understood) pretty much invented the concept of tolerance. That the (far) left does not always act with tolerance is hardly a surprise; they have never even claimed to believe in it.

As to conservatives, I'm not sure how many there actually are in America, where the name is also often inappropriately used by people who are actually right-wing radicals. Radicals (of left and right) are largely disinclined towards tolerance because they are both playing a zero sum game (which involves the other side ending up with zero )

True conservatives and true liberals by and large have a vested interest in the tolerant exchange of ideas. I used to think that America had a much narrower political spectrum than other western countries (only 2 major parties - one on the centre right, one on the right), but I have come to discover that lurking beneath those anodyne labels of 'liberal' and 'conservative' are a lot of fierce radicals on both wings.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top

TheGuyPC:

First off, you didn't listen to PowerUser.TV did you? No, you just assumed that I went on some political rant. I didn't.  The story was about a war protester protesting the war in the "America's Army" video game.

Secondly, I asked for examples in which the right interject politics into inapprpriate venues.  Let me give some specific examples:

  • Watching the MTV Music awards and having someone in their acceptance speech go into a rant about how "evil" the United States is.
  • Watching the Oscars and seeing the same kind of thing.
  • Playing a video game and having someone protesting the war during the game.
  • Attending a class on Computer Science and having the professor go into a rant about Bush.
  • Having teachers assign your children to write anti-war letters to send to the President
  • Going to a concert to listen to music only to have the musician start the concert with a rant about Bush, the US, or the war.

The above are all real life things. They have happened and I know of zero examples of right wing people doing that. It's been purely from the left.  In your own list, you name one conservative who did something similar and that was they wrote a pro USA song. They didn't make a song attacking someone.  They didn't make a song calling those against the war cowards or morons or whatever.

I am not objecting to some musician making an anti-war or pro-USA song. I can choose not to listen to it. Similarly, college commencements can be political though I don't appreciate ones that personally attacking government officials or US policy but if one invites a politician to a commencement, they're going to do the politics thing. 

This isn't an equivalence thing here.  There are certainly right wing kooks. But in practice, it is almost purely the left that is so arrogance, so disrespectful of other points of view that they would go into a clearly non-political venue and start stuffing their views down the (often captive) audience's throats.

Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
People seem to have gotten well off the subject here.

I'll get corrected if I'm wrong, but Brad's point boils down to this:

Celebrities on the political left who have access to public forums by virtue of their celebrity, often take the opportunity when they have the mike to preach political viewpoints to us, in what they know to be inappropriate (non-political) settings. Then they justify it by contending that it's our problem that we consider the setting inappropriate.

Celebrities on the political right who have access to public forums by virtue of their celebrity, seldom choose to do so. In that, he is correct. He is also correct that the stereotypical mindset of liberals is that conservatives are simply unenlightened, venal or both.