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Why it seems Liberals are out to get Christians

Why it seems Liberals are out to get Christians

An article written by my church's Worship Leader, Lynne M.

This article, I suppose, should really be posted in the "Religion" forum, but since it involves an aspect of the "Liberal/Conservative" thing, I thought I'd post it here, in "Politics".
I brought this subject up a few weeks ago in my Sunday School class, which is instructed by our church's Worship Leader, Lynne. She is also the Pastor's wife, and is very passionate in her faith.
I liked what she had to say, and asked her to write it down and forward it to me for posting here. I'm waiting to hear back from her, and if she doesn't mind, any opposing views will be forwarded on to her, and I will then post her answers. So, you may have to wait a couple of days for the exchange. She's pretty tough, though, I do have to warn you.----RW



First we have to remember that Christians have only one enemy.
[12] For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Now, I'm not saying that liberals are demon possessed or even evil. But here's what happens. Liberals and especially extreme liberals tend to come down on the side of the argument that is against scripture. Many times Christian liberals can use scripture to explain their point of view, but usually they have to defend their arguments with phrases like "times have changed since then."
Since Liberals are already arguing for things that are against scripture, the Christian's enemy lies to them and tells them that Christians and Christianity is THEIR enemy. And unfortunately for Christianity, the lies are fed when extreme conservatives listen to the enemy and say unchristian things like "Take the homosexuals out and shoot them" or they throw blood on or try to kill abortionists.
You see Satan is really everyone's enemy. He can not tell the truth. It is impossible for him. Even if he manages to speak a word of truth, it is tainted with lies or twisted truth (take what he told Eve in the Garden of Eden for example). He lies to anyone who will believe him. Christians and non-Christians alike. And he will tell them exactly what they want to hear so that his cause benefits. He tells the extreme liberals that Christians are the enemy and at the same time he will tell extreme conservatives that homosexuals and abortionists should be shot. His goal is to divide and conquer.
Why is it that Christianity and Judaism are the only world religions under constant attack? Why does everyone leave Bhudists and Hindus alone? Why are Muslims only persecuted after they begin to persecute others? It's because Christianity and Judaism are the only religions that threaten to destroy the enemy. Christianity is the only religion by which a person can be delivered from Satan's hands and the Jewish nation has been declared God's chosen (although I have a feeling that there are as many "pew-sitting" Jews as there are "pew-sitting" Christians who are going to be surprised at the final judgement)
Satan is at war. He wants to take all the territory he possibly can. He doesn't want Christmas celebrated because someone might realize just why Christmas takes place and if Christmas IS celebrated, he'd really rather people worship Santa Claus on that day because that way they'll miss the message and he won't lose any ground. I'm sure that Good Friday and Easter really scare him, but fortunately for him, Christians would rather emphasize Christmas, and without the message of Easter, Christmas is relatively harmless.
One might think that Liberals hate Christians. Some probably do, but most don't. The problem is they are listening to lies of one who does. Satan hates it when a person discovers he or she is truly created in the image of God and begins to discover how precious they are in His eyes . . . so, he developed the lie of evolution. And if one discovers that all humans are created in the image of God they might value life more and might tell more people about Jesus, so he propogates the lies about abortion and women having the right to choose.
Truthfully, that sounds perfectly legitimate. Women should have the right to choose what they do with their body. I believe even God would agree with that. So Satan started with the lie that sex outside of marriage was permissable. He started centuries ago gradually allowing that lie to come to the forefront and over the last 30 years it has become truth. I mean how many people have even read Hebrews 13:4 . . . and the marriage bed kept pure . . . ? Even most church going people and very moral folks don't see anything wrong with premarital sex. So, once sex outside of (before and during) marriage became socially acceptable, the next logical step was what to do with the result of the the incident. Women do have the right to choose what to do with their body. However, they are making the choice late. To abort or not to abort IS NOT the question. To have sex or not to have sex . . . that's the question! Liberals will fight back with "what about those who've been violated through rape or molestation?" They'll even ask "what about the life of the mother or when the baby is found to have a terrible birth defect?" Yep, that's the lie . . . Satan loves to fight with the lie. The truth is the percentage of abortions due to rape, molestation, the health of the mother or birth defect is so low that at this point it's irrelevant in the argument. The lie is that human life is unimportant especially if it's unborn human life. Folks believe that lie and we have children being killed every minute. Liberals are against Christians because Satan hates new life. Jesus Christ creates new life and His enemy is only out to destroy it. John 10:10 says that the enemy comes "only to steal, kill and destroy" and he is succeeding every day because liberals are believing the lies.
No, liberals don't hate Christians. They aren't even out to get Christians. But there is one who does and is. And he spends all of his time lying to anyone who will listen. His lies are the most believable out there. But anytime you hear anything that doesn't jive with scripture, no matter how true, legitimate or even backed with scientific evidence it seems, you should stop and pray and really contemplate whether or not you should beleive it. And the next time you feel like someone is out to get you. . . . someone "else" probably is!

14,941 views 45 replies
Reply #26 Top
From Lynne to Chakgoka:

"There are some very good points in this response. We do have the liberals to thank about a lot of things. If it wasn't for Liberalism, conservativism would get way out of hand . . . and vice versa . . . My initial "post" (as I believe it said) talked primarily about radicals. Likewise I said that radical conservatives cause most of the problems in Christianity and Muslims will tell you that radicals of the Islam faith are giving them a bad name. It's all true.

It is also correct about all the people the Bible says to put to death (actually it's even more than the responder mentioned). And Jesus did say that not an iota of the law would pass away. Here are two facts that I'd like you to consider. First Jesus told the crowd who came to stone the adulterous woman that the one without sin could cast the first stone. And . . . the second is an interpretation of scripture. Some interpret that passage "not one iota of the law will pass away" to mean that the law must be followed until Christ returns. Others interpret it (in light of Jesus' telling the one without sin to cast the first stone and in light of John and Jesus giving us a "new command") to mean that it won't matter how much Jesus might explain that He came to free us from the law and give us a new command, those who follow the law will never give it up. That law will never pass away because many will refuse to live in the freedom that Jesus Christ came to give. They choose instead to live legalistic and try to achieve heaven by their own means.

"How can one really argue rationally with this?" [end quote] Another good point. The original post is an answer I gave to a group of people who believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and that there really is a Prince of Darkness who hates those who call themselves Christians. I would never argue this with those who don't believe those two principles. It can't be argued. I don't believe in using the Bible to argue with those who don't believe the Bible. It's pointless. The Old Testament was written for those who believe in God who created the universe. Fact is the Old Testament was never meant to regulate those other than the Jews and those who chose to join the Jewish community. It was rules to set them apart from the other nations who had gone so far away from morality that at times God chose to wipe them out rather than try to rehabiliatate them. Likewise, the New Testament clearly says that we're to judge those inside the church, not outside. It wasn't written as a book for everyone to follow, it was written as a series of letters to those who were trying to follow the greatest man who had ever lived. It's only after we decide to follow that Man that the Bible becomes relevant. Up until then it's merely a history book.

But tell me, how would you explain the fact that radical liberals do seem to be out to get Christians? Why are radical liberals afraid to let Christians pray? In fact, if Christianity is such a farce, so far fetched and impossible to believe, what does it hurt that we pray or talk about Jesus. Why are there certain places that don't mind if you pray or talk about God, but you can't even talk about Jesus? If He is no more real than the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus, then what is the paranoia surrounding this ancient man that even the Jews can't deny lived and walked and was a great prophet and teacher? That's what seems so absurd to me. The average liberal who is not radical, doesn't care if I pray or talk about Jesus, but there's almost a fear of the name of Jesus among radicals. What causes such an irrational fear of something they believe to be imaginary? You would think if they really believed that my faith was so absurd, they'd be glad that some people adhered to it simply because of the moral values it teaches. I've seen criminals completely changed because they believed in Jesus (I know there are even more who claim to know Jesus and it's just a lie, they go right back to their old lives). I've seen families get off of welfare because they become Christians and realize that Christ expects us not to be a burden on society but be a servant to society. I've seen men who were alcoholics and abusive do a complete turn around due to the fact they found Jesus Christ. I'd understand the fear and paranoia if we still lived in the time of the Spanish Inquisition. It would be a very rational fear if it were still the time when those who were perceived to be witches were being drowned and burned. But, in America in the 21st Century, it completely blows my mind that there are people who want to keep the 10 Commandments from hanging in the courthouses across America. If they were really just made up by Jews in 4000 BC, then what makes the difference since at least the last six are really great rules to live by? There has to be some root to such a fear.

And my final answer is another question . . . If Satan is really "an Iron Age myth in which primitive people with less knowledge, but more imaginative genius than modern man, were able to 'personalise' the whole realm of evil" then how do you explain demon possession? I know it doesn't happen with the frequency that it did in the Bible and I also realize that there are those radical conservatives out there who want to pass off mental illness and split personality disorder for demon possession. No . . . How do you explain a man who I've known all my life after turning from Christ at a point in His life and then after about a year of allowing himself to live a life that one might describe as being led by evil, crawling around his driveway like a dog and making strange noises, trying to twist his head off his shoulders, looking at me with eyes that could only be described as demonic and then dropping to the floor like a puppet after a prayer session (no, it wasn't a TV show exorcism - and during his "prodigal" year, he didn't get into drugs). I've only experienced it once. It's not something I go looking for and not something that I hope I'll ever experience it again. Up until that day, I believed in demonic powers, but I really thought that those kind of things only happened in the Bible. I'm convinced that there is an enemy, and not because I've read about it in scripture or because someone taught me something as a youngster. I learned a long time ago not to base my faith on what I've been taught or told. I'm convinced there is an enemy because I've seen him at work. And I'm convinced there is a Savior because I've seen Him at work too. Only His work doesn't give me nightmares! His work brings me an unexplainable peace in the midst of the most stressful of times. His work gives me confidence when it seems as though there is no hope in my situation. His work is something that you won't understand I'm sure. It's something that's probably making you laugh at me right now, but that's OK. Because His work allows me to accept the fact you think I'm crazy and still believe with all my heart that one day you'll find out I'm right . . . I just pray it's sooner that too late."----Lynne

From Lynne to MM:

"AMEN!"
Reply #27 Top
Where does the money go? Has the church been remodeled or expanded? How rich is your preacher?
---Icon

There is work being done on the church now, yes, and they also have the usual expenses that we all have; electricity, gas, etc., plus salary for paid employees. My preacher would laugh to hear you ask that. They get by, I guess, and they tithe what they do get, so they rely on God's blessings to get them through.



So you think the money goes to God? If not, who are you repaying?


Irt doesn't go "directly" to God, no, of course not, but, as LW (welcome back, sweetie, by the way, nice to see you) said, it goes to further God's work and our church mission. Someone like you, Icon, sadly, cannot grasp that concept because of your irrational hatred of religion.

My revenge fantasy has nothing to do with the supernatural, but it's that the disease lw suffers from will claim her very soon.
---Icon

Icon, this is a sad first for me; this comment gets you blacklisted. You ARE a bitter and small-minded person, Icon, and I'll never answer anything you post in any threads again. As a certain Roman governor once did, I'm washing my hands of you. Goodbye.
Reply #28 Top
Sometimes the server problems can work to one's advantage.

there are those radical conservatives out there who want to pass off mental illness and split personality disorder for demon possession



Wrong.

What causes such an irrational fear of something they believe to be imaginary?


It's not fear. Fear (and belief) of the irrational is superstition. It's being tired of the irrational and superstitious. We just get tired of hearing it.

I apologize for the trolling, but not the sentiment behind it.
Reply #29 Top
Someone like you, Icon, sadly, cannot grasp that concept because of your irrational hatred of religion.


Wrong again. I haven't been to church in 33 years.

a man who I've known all my life after turning from Christ at a point in His life and then after about a year of allowing himself to live a life that one might describe as being led by evil, crawling around his driveway like a dog and making strange noises, trying to twist his head off his shoulders, looking at me with eyes that could only be described as demonic and then dropping to the floor like a puppet after a prayer session (no, it wasn't a TV show exorcism - and during his "prodigal" year, he didn't get into drugs).


Maybe he was acting.
Reply #30 Top
"It is an act of virtue to deceive and lie, when by such means the interests of the church might be promoted." - Bishop Eusebius (260-339)
Reply #31 Top
Wrong again. I haven't been to church in 33 years.


I think you just said what your problem is in a nutshell.

Ironclast you remind me of the Phantom in the Phantom of the Opera story. It's plain to see in the story that the Phantom's heart is cold and dark. He has no joy; neither has love ever touched his life. Until that one day, when Christine kissed him and it all changed in an instant. She said to him it wasn't his looks that repelled her, but his cold murderous heart that turned her away. All the hatred washed away when he was touched with love. He for the first time did something he never had done before, thought of someone else for a change and set them free.

Why not search for a loving church one that can help you find joy and maybe you'll understand a whole lot more about what it's like on the other side. You have been away far too long.

RW I agree with Lynn 100% I've had some of the same experiences as she including one with demon possession. I have seen it first hand as well. I've seen three of the strongest guys in our church hold a man down on the floor while his wife was getting baptized in the other room. It's there and it's real. There is a very real spiritual warfare going on and most are oblivious to it.
Reply #32 Top
Ironclast you remind me of the Phantom in the Phantom of the Opera story. It's plain to see in the story that the Phantom's heart is cold and dark. He has no joy; neither has love ever touched his life. Until that one day, when Christine kissed him and it all changed in an instant. She said to him it wasn't his looks that repelled her, but his cold murderous heart that turned her away. All the hatred washed away when he was touched with love. He for the first time did something he never had done before, thought of someone else for a change and set them free.


I think you just said what your problem is in a nutshell. You take horror movies too seriously.
IT'S FICTION!! GET A GRIP!!

But if you want to go that route, fine. He was already in love with her. That's why he kidnapped her. Therefore his heart wasn't entirely cold and dark from the beginning. Love had touched his life.

Once again, your premise is faulty. Just like the "I've never seen Japan" statement.
Reply #33 Top

So, the bottom line is, if your faith today is more humane, sane and less fanatical than it was it a few centuries ago, you have only the liberals to thank!

You really know how to hurt a conservative.

Reply #34 Top

Religion is a myth.

Sorry, that is not correct.  Religion may be comprised on myths, based on myths, or believe in myths.  but religion is not a myth.  It is man's attempt to understand that which cannot be quantified or qualified, and is therefore real.  Not a myth. You can believe in a myth.  but your belief is not a myth.

Reply #35 Top
Sorry, that is not correct. Religion may be comprised on myths, based on myths, or believe in myths. but religion is not a myth. It is man's attempt to understand that which cannot be quantified or qualified, and is therefore real. Not a myth. You can believe in a myth. but your belief is not a myth.

An argument about words. As I've already said, people nowadays use the word myth to mean something like "a false premise that people wrongly believe in" - a bit like a snopes.com urban legend that turns out to be 'false'. However the word originally had a deeper meaning, which actually you define fairly well yourself as "man's attempt to understand that which cannot be quantified or qualified". It is indeed "therefore real", it's just not something that can be proven in a scientific test - rather like a poem or a string quartet. I'm afraid to say we are actually agreeing again
Reply #36 Top
KFC
And it's no good saying that that is old covenant justice, because Christ himself said "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." [Matthew 5:18]


He also said "It is finished" on the cross. You don't have all your puzzle pieces put together Chak yet. So it's confusing to you.


LYNNE
Some interpret that passage "not one iota of the law will pass away" to mean that the law must be followed until Christ returns.


In a nutshell, my problem with inerrancy. KFC says I don't have all my puzzle pieces because I didn't 'understand' that Jesus saying "It is finished" 'means' that those old laws have now passed away. How could I? There is, for example, no Bible verse which actually says that KFC's interpretation is correct. And lo and behold, Lynne who is apparently equally well-versed in scripture says (surely correctly) "Some interpret..." So wonderful is this 'science' of 'hermeneutics' (Greek for making a text mean whatever you want it to) that it allows believers not only to argue confidently - never entertaining a scintilla of doubt - not only on the basis of inerrant text, but also on the basis of inerrant subjective interpretations of inerrant text. It's all too mindboggling!
Reply #37 Top
Folks:

Lynne tried to get into the forums so she could answer your comments herself, but couldn't get in for some reason. She's going to keep trying.
Reply #38 Top
But if you want to go that route, fine. He was already in love with her. That's why he kidnapped her. Therefore his heart wasn't entirely cold and dark from the beginning. Love had touched his life


no, you have lust and love mixed up. Love is when you want the best for the other person, lust is when you want that person for yourself no matter what. Watch it again, you'll see that one suiter had genuine love for her while the Phantom was only concerned about himself and what he wanted.

How can a 16 year old not attend church for 33 years?


Reply #39 Top
Chak

Christ was specifically affirming the utter inerrancy and absolute authority of the OT as the Word of God—down to the least jot and tittle. This suggests that the NT should not be seen as supplanting the OT, but as fulfilling it. For example, all the ceremonial requirements of the Mosaic law were fulfilled in Christ and are no longer to be observed by Christians (Col. 2:16, 17). Yet not one jot or tittle is thereby erased; the underlying truths of those Scriptures remain—and in fact the mysteries behind them are now revealed in the brighter light of the gospel. They have not passed from the law is the sense Jesus means here.

He fulfilled the moral law by keeping it perfectly. He fulfilled the ceremonial law by being the embodiment of everything the law’s types and symbols pointed to. And he fulfilled the judicial law by personifying God’s perfect justice

I really don't think you want me to start giving you too many scriptures here on this but I can. You can start with the one above.

Just trying to give you another puzzle piece. Does it fit?
Reply #40 Top
no, you have lust and love mixed up. Love is when you want the best for the other person, lust is when you want that person for yourself no matter what. Watch it again, you'll see that one suiter had genuine love for her while the Phantom was only concerned about himself and what he wanted.


He wanted to love her.

"Taking her to his lair in the misty catacombs beneath the Opera House, the Phantom declares his love for Christine"
Reply #41 Top
no, you have lust and love mixed up. Love is when you want the best for the other person, lust is when you want that person for yourself no matter what. Watch it again, you'll see that one suiter had genuine love for her while the Phantom was only concerned about himself and what he wanted.


He wanted to love her.

"Taking her to his lair in the misty catacombs beneath the Opera House, the Phantom declares his love for Christine"
Reply #42 Top
those who were perceived to be witches were being drowned and burned.


Actually, most of them were hanged. Another example of taking horror movies too seriously.
Reply #43 Top
Some things given to the Jews were not given to the new christian converts such as circumcision as an example.


I mean how many people have even read Hebrews 13:4 . . . and the marriage bed kept pure . . . ? Even most church going people and very moral folks don't see anything wrong with premarital sex.
Reply #44 Top
Just trying to give you another puzzle piece. Does it fit?

Well, at this stage we've gone quite a few rounds in the ring together and I have to say, while disagreeing with much that you say (and I'm unlikely to change my mind on that anytime soon) I must say that I like your style.

It's something that's probably making you laugh at me right now, but that's OK.

Absolutely not. While I'm unlikely to agree completely with what you have to say, I certainly won't mock something so carefully considered and thank you for the time and trouble you took to carefully answer the points I made.
Reply #45 Top
Well, at this stage we've gone quite a few rounds in the ring together and I have to say, while disagreeing with much that you say (and I'm unlikely to change my mind on that anytime soon) I must say that I like your style.


Well thanks Chak, guess you're not mad at me anymore!! That's a good thing. Yes, we have gone quite a few rounds and I'm sure we have a few more left to go. Remember tho, I am a junkyard dog with a very meaty bone. I will share my meat with you but I won't let you bury it.

He wanted to love her.


He didn't understand what love was until she showed him.