Problem is that this doesn't win you the war. Look at Israel. They are extremely good at singling out and eliminating terrorists, and it still is not enough.

The same here. Still, that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least try. So yes, I'm glad this operation was a success and that no 'innocent' bystanders were killed in the process.

To win a war, you win the battles one at a time. He who has the best training, equipment, and troops usally wins, even when out numbered. We have all three, and given the ability to fight as soldiers are supposed to be able to do, and the TIME to ferret out the enemy, we could easily win this war. We are, slowly but surely reducing the number of the enemy, and at a faster rate then they can replace them. Look at the numbers of enemy from other countries being captured or killed, it is going down becuase they can not keep finding all these young men that are actually willing to blow themselves up. Plus you can only use a suicide bomber once, they are not re-usable.

As Gen. George Patton once said, "Don't die for your country, let the other bastard die for his."

Great news and the more bad guys we get the better.
But they have time. Lots and lots of time. And an almost limitless population of mental defectives who are willing to die for a cause.

Great news and the more bad guys we get the better.
But they have time. Lots and lots of time. And an almost limitless population of mental defectives who are willing to die for a cause.

yeah right they were TERRORISTS ... they were INSURGENTS


Id sooner believe a rock than ANYTHING coming from the implementors of this ILLEGAL war
to justify the death of innocents they are ALL labeled terrorists ... helps them sleep at night

yeah right they were TERRORISTS ... they were INSURGENTS Id sooner believe a rock than ANYTHING coming from the implementors of this ILLEGAL war to justify the death of innocents they are ALL labeled terrorists ... helps them sleep at night

go sit in the corner and whack-off!!! Idiot!!!

>go sit in the corner and whack-off!!! Idiot!!!

drmiler ... are you telling me that after
1) they have wmd
2) pat tilman was killed by the enemy
3) jessica lynch was super rambo
4) the women and children we killed were insurgents
5) we dont use napalm
6) we dont torture
7) we dont pay iraqi' to put news "articles" (favorable to us) in their newspapers
etc
etc
etc

that you are willing to give this mess an ear.

if so dude ... i have bridge to SELL YOU

>if so dude ... i have bridge to SELL YOU

forget the bridge I have something you can put to use right away
look at this here MAGIC BEANS ...

theres one born every minute i guess

>He who has the best training, equipment, and troops usally wins, even when out numbered

You cannot defeat an ideology with violence ... it simply cant be done.
Also you cant defeat a man who has resolved to lose everything to keep you off his land.

THey have the home court advantage and they are fighting in their country ... they NEVER came to ours we came to theirs
(Iraqi's).

As in Vietnam this crap is going to end bad ... real bad ... and 30 years from now we will repeat the same crap because
might in weaponry breeds HUBRIS.

unfortunately as has been shown (more of our own dead after we defeated their weaponry and army ... if you BELIEVE the 1300 claim or whatever number DOD is putting out) ... science and technology cant win everything.

I think the ONLY thing keeping this from completely overwhelming us is the shiite equation. They have been patient because
their religious leaders hold sway and want power in shiite hands.

WOAH for us the moment that changes
all it would take is one edict or fatwa against the "occupier"

Hey Rombios,

When the Iraqi Government establishes a working country what are you going to have to complain about?? As for the dead, thats what happens in a war, people on both sides die, just happy its more on the other side not ours. The difference is, ours are VOLUNTEERS. That means they went into the service willingly and knoew what to expect. Unlike you some people are willing to put their lives on the line asked to do so, when they believe in what they are fighting for. You need to read more. Your being warped by just one side of the stroy. I read both then make up my own mind, based on having been in teh military and also knowing that thruth usally lies somewhere in the middle of the two sides.

Oh and don't forget that the TERRORIST are working with and under the direction of a TERRORIST and it has nothing to do with land or fighting to get someone out of the country, they want to CONTROL the country and the VAST MAJORITY of Iraqis do not want them around.

Oh and lighten up, your retoric gains you no support, maybe a intelligent discussion on your part sometime might make others listen more.

yeah right they were TERRORISTS ... they were INSURGENTS

Hey yo-yo...."insurgents" are someone from the country in question fighting for the same. Who we're fighting are mostly NOT, Iraqis. They are people from other countries. IE: terrorists.

Main Entry: 1in·sur·gent Pronunciation: -j&nt Function: noun Etymology: Latin insurgent-, insurgens, present participle of insurgere to rise up, from in- + surgere to rise -- more at SURGE 1 : a person who revolts against civil authority or an established government; especially : a rebel not recognized as a belligerent Main Entry: ter·ror·ism Pronunciation: 'ter-&r-"i-z&m Function: noun : the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion - ter·ror·ist /-&r-ist/ adjective or noun - ter·ror·is·tic /"ter-&r-'is-tik/ adjective

And just an fyi....NO we don't use torture. Some was done, but NOT under orders! And NO we do NOT use napalm on civilian targets. We do use it on "military" targets. And as far as most are concerned it's not much worse than bombing them back to the stone age. And yes they had wmd's. Try reading news that isn't NBC, ABC, CBS, etc.
I have no idea why shadow puts up with trolls like you.

ShadowWar before I respond let me respectively say that I appreciate your testicular fortitude in dealing with my
comments ... there are others who would just "delete" it ... whose nicknames I need not mention

I submit the following respectfully!

>When the Iraqi Government establishes a working country what are you going to have to complain about??

simply establishing a government doesnt mean anything .... there are civilian structures that must exist in support of
that venture for it to work.
we established a government in south vietnam ... where is it now?

the religious leaders are the primary reason why things havent nosed dived into oblivion ... lets see if they can still
hold things together in Iraq.

>As for the dead, thats what happens in a war, people on both sides die,

No, this isnt a true war its an invasion
this was a ONE SIDED declaration of war ... on a nation hobbled by 12 years of sanctions ... who couldnt even import
evaporated milk

>Unlike you some people are willing to put their lives on the line asked to do so, when they believe in what they are
>fighting for.

They are just doing their jobs right?
the trials at nuremburg should have thought us that THAT argument doesnt fly.

If this was such a noble deed ... why are the children of the architects of this war ... at home? the military has become
a pawn for the implimentation of their ideology ... but always as long as its SOMEONE ELSE' lives on the line.

>Your being warped by just one side of the stroy.

I beg to differ ... I have moral clarity ... from not being involved with EITHER side

>I read both then make up my own mind, based on having been in teh military and also knowing that thruth usally lies
>somewhere in the middle of the two sides.

I would argue that being in that institution has made you biased ... I doubt there is anything the military can do that
you would be opposed to ... again the nature of being in that institution

>they want to CONTROL the country and the VAST MAJORITY of Iraqis do not want them around.

How many suicide bombers were in Iraq when Saddam was running that country?
How many people were dying on the streets?
How many women were hiding behind viels?
How much oil were they pumping then compared to now (even with all the sanctions we imposed)?

YOu cant see that all this came about when we invaded?
And about suicide bombing ... you do understand that not everyone has cruise missiles and tomahawks or satellite guided
munition right? sometimes you have to use the only weapon you have at your disposal ... your body

And about the vast majority of iraqi's not wanting them around ... how many have you asked?
did you know that jerry bremer commisioned an informal poll that revealed over 80% of Iraq's wanted us OUT of their country.
that number rises to 90% if the kurds are removed from the count

did you know that iraqi leaders at the last arab summit voted that resistance is fully justified against an occupying force?

Hell, their choice of leaders clearly shows WE are the ones they dont want around ... no one we supported was chosen
Ahmed Chalabi aka the crook ... Iyad Allawi aka the pawn ... where are they now?

>Oh and lighten up, your retoric gains you no support,

I could care less for support ... its better to speak truth to power ... and let others reach their own conclusions.

>Who we're fighting are mostly NOT, Iraqis. They are people from other countries. IE: terrorists.

AND THEN YOU WOKE UP
Theres an article about Talabani meeting the leaders of 7 armed groups this weekend ... in which he says a deal maybe
possible. He clearly refers to them as insurgents and native born

Give me some time I can pull up articles were the current U.S Iraq Ambassador Khalizaid clearly points out that the
OVERWHELMING majority are Iraqi born and not foriegn fighters
ever wonder how they can just "blend" in ... home court advantage has its priviledges

>the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion

that dictionary defintion fits "shock and awe" to the tee
we had hoped to scare them into not "rising up" ... ooopsiee

>And just an fyi....NO we don't use torture. Some was done, but NOT under orders!

Nice try
now are are redefining "torture" ... thats another word that has no REAL definition anymore

>And NO we do NOT use napalm on civilian targets. We do use it on "military" targets.

Yes of course
heres other "facts" we "know" part of the "known knowns or was it unknown knowns"
pat tilman died at the hand of the enemy
we found wmd stockpiles in iraq
jessica lynch was super rambo ... shesll be starring in rambo 6
the 18 people who died in pakistans province from unmanned arial bot were all terrorists including the 9 month old he
was found with a shovel in his hand
the people killed at wedding parties are all terrorists
the people killed when we attacked a mosque were all insurgents
the 100k whose deaths we are responsible for were all terrorinsurgents (like that ?
everyone is a terrorist
there is real sectarian violence ... its not our soldiers booby trapping cars to go off

>And as far as most are concerned it's not much worse than bombing them back to the stone age.

I wish i could make you an iraqi RIGHT NOW ... and have you stay that for the rest of your pitiful existence

>Try reading news that isn't NBC, ABC, CBS, et

Thats why I can make such bold comments ... I dont watch ABC/DEF/GHI/etc my mind isnt polluted with "group think"

>I have no idea why shadow puts up with trolls like you.

Hes got balls ... you drmiller are a coward ... content to talk out of his ass. Resorting to violence to compensate for
obvious weaknesses and deficiency

ShadowWar before I respond let me respectively say that I appreciate your testicular fortitude in dealing with my
comments ... there are others who would just "delete" it ... whose nicknames I need not mention.

I allow it to the point that you are your own worst enemy. You see others see your post and realize why you post as you do, I don't have to delete them (unless it becomes personal) for people to see through your words to the meaning behind them.

simply establishing a government doesnt mean anything .... there are civilian structures that must exist in support of
that venture for it to work.
we established a government in ... where is it now?

the religious leaders are the primary reason why things havent nosed dived into oblivion ... lets see if they can still
hold things together in .

You must not be reading the MSM:

Insurgent deal possible, Iraqi leader says (from the Seattle Times)

, — Iraqi President Jalal Talabani said Sunday that he thinks a deal is possible with seven Iraqi insurgent groups after a series of contacts involving his office and officials.

"The Americans have entered into negotiations with some of these groups with my blessing," a statement issued by Talabani's office quoted him as saying. "I think it is possible to reach an agreement with seven armed groups that visited me and who I met with."

No, this isnt a true war its an invasion
this was a ONE SIDED declaration of war ... on a nation hobbled by 12 years of sanctions ... who couldnt even import
evaporated milk

Your word play is pointless. An invasion is part of a war. And ’s government and military was anything but hobbled by the sanctions. Its citizens were being shorted by the Government but not the military and the ruling party. It’s a war, under anyone’s definition who has worn a uniform.

They are just doing their jobs right?
the trials at Nuremburg should have thought us that THAT argument doesn’t fly.

If this was such a noble deed ... why are the children of the architects of this war ... at home? the military has become a pawn for the implementation of their ideology ... but always as long as its SOMEONE ELSE' lives on the line.

Well lets see, you volunteer? I did, and also have an app in to go over as a civilian. To train the Police. How about you? My son is only 7 but I have already started to instill in him the importance of EVERYONE doing something for their country, like serving time in the military.  Did you know that less than 1.5% of the population is in the military? So the odds of anyone being in the military is about 1 or 2 out of one hundred!

As for those trials you mention. The difference here is simple, those tried at the trials you mention were for things that the USA has never even thought of doing, I don’t think there will be any trials for putting underwear on someone’s head, although we tried our own for that. We have tried and convicted our own for anything that we saw that was remotely out of place.

I beg to differ ... I have moral clarity ... from not being involved with EITHER side

He who is unwilling to chose sides, will fight for nothing, and die a lonely person.

I would argue that being in that institution has made you biased ... I doubt there is anything the military can do that you would be opposed to ... again the nature of being in that institution

Oh not even close! You must not read all my post. Especially the one entitled “I am ashamed of my government.” Among others.

As for the rest of your diatribe, of course they want us out, would you not want a force, no matter how friendly or helpful they may be, removed so your own government can take over? Suicide bombings have gone down, that bears two possibilities. One, they are running out of people willing to blow themselves up (my pick) or they are losing the will to do this (also my pick). As the Iraqi people, they have increased from around 47 tips a month to the MNF-I (multi-national ) in Jan 2005 when the program was launched to over 4500 a month today, just one year later. Go back and read my other articles on this subject.

Rambios, while I was fashioning this response and going back and forth to the article and your responses you had to resort to this “you drmiller are a coward ... content to talk out of his ass. Resorting to violence to compensate for obvious weaknesses and deficiency” I will ask you to please refrain from the personal attacks (calling someone a troll is no big deal, it’s the rest of the statement) Please.

Did you know suicide attacks in have gone from over 70 a day last year to about 24 a day now? And that the estimate for suicide bombers is 90% foreign terrorist? Iraqi’s are not that inclined to blow themselves up. It’s the outside people that account for the suicide attacks.

How do you account for this? Iraqis in certain areas of the country are taking their own action against terrorist. Many times these citizens are urged by their local tribal leaders to rid the area of the insurgent influence. In Fallujah and Ramadi, citizens have established checkpoints to keep terrorist out and six al Qaeda leaders have been killed in the area since September.

Try to be civil to the others that post also. Thanks.

>Well lets see, you volunteer?

Shadow you completely miss my point.
Of the members who authored this war ... of the group in congress (both houses) ... how many have their loved ones on the
front line?

can you not see that a distinction is drawn between the "chosen elites" and the "rest of us"

institute a forced draft tommorow and I can gurantee this crap will end ... in under a month. you see a draft will force
ALL OF US to demand that our leaders kids/neices/nephews put their lives on the line as well.

there is nothing noble in what is being done there man ...

>He who is unwilling to chose sides, will fight for nothing, and die a lonely person.

That doesnt work ... and were I to choose sides I wouldnt choose what we have become

>I don’t think there will be any trials for putting underwear on someone’s head,

Do you believe in your heart of hearts ... that all this has been limited to just putting underwear on someones head?
No one was killed?
No one was tortured?
No one was raped?

How about the thousands of other pictures and video shown to members of congress but not put out publicly for fear it would
create more enemies for us. How about testimony from loved ones in Iraq?

Still think those pictures were just pictures of us putting underwear on peoples heads


>“you drmiller are a coward ... content to talk out of his ass. Resorting to violence to compensate for obvious weaknesses
>and deficiency

my sincere apologies for this ... drmiller and I (along with two others, one also answering the "Dr" prefix) have a history
of heated exchanges on this board ...

I was just pointing out the obvious ...
again my apologies

>checkpoints to keep terrorist out and six al Qaeda leaders have been killed in the area since September.

Ever notice that everyone we capture (usually after a dip in poll numbers) is an Al Qaeda leader?
If they are all leaders ... who the hell is doing their fighting?
How the hell does a group name itself Al Qaeda in Iraq ... are the fricking nuts? ... the word Al Qaeda is a western
nome ... that a group would simply adopt such a thing tells me two things

1) either they are the biggest bunch of idiots on Earth
or
2) they a front for something else ... and the ones putting out videos/statements ARE NOT who we are capturing

I didnt remember any of this going on when Saddam was in power ... and he was concidered to be a heathen muslim for being
so secular

Hey ... when was the last time you saw the threat level (orange/green/red raised ... since the 2004 election). There is
a level of clarity that comes from simply plugging off the t.v ... going to the library to read ... going online and
subscribing to foreign dailypapers ... reaching your own conclusions

Ever notice that everyone we capture (usually after a dip in poll numbers) is an Al Qaeda leader?
If they are all leaders ... who the hell is doing their fighting?
How the hell does a group name itself Al Qaeda in Iraq ... are the fricking nuts? ... the word Al Qaeda is a western
nome ... that a group would simply adopt such a thing tells me two things

1) either they are the biggest bunch of idiots on Earth
or
2) they a front for something else ... and the ones putting out videos/statements ARE NOT who we are capturing

Not true, no one in the article these comments are posted about was reported as a leader, nor in the other last two or three about terrorist being killed.

And as for the term/name Al Qaeda, its not a western word, Al-Qaeda, also spelled al-Qaida, is the Arabic word for “the base” or “the camp”—meaning the base or camp from which worldwide Islamic revolution will be fought. This was coinded by the BL himself.

Abu Mus'ab al-Zarqawi, als usesthe term,  has pledged allegiance to Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in a statement posted to an Islamic forum website on 17 October 2004. The statement attributed to al-Zarqawi's Jama'at Al-Tawhid wa Al-Jihad militant group said: "Talks, during which views were exchanged between Sheikh Abu Mus'ab...and brothers from Al-Qaeda, have been going on for eight months." The statement said that talks were interrupted for a time but then resumed, adding, "Our respected brothers in Al-Qaeda understood the strategy of Jama'at Al-Tawhid wa Al-Jihad in the land of the two rivers [Iraq] and the caliphates and their hearts opened to their approach.... We deliver to the nation the news that both Jama'at Al-Tawhid wa Al-Jihad's Amir [al-Zarqawi] and soldiers have pledged allegiance to the sheikh of the mujahedin, Osama bin Laden, and that they will follow his orders in jihad for the sake of God so there will be no more tumult or oppression, and justice and faith in God will prevail." The statement called on the "youth of this nation" to join al-Zarqawi's followers under the banner of Al-Qaeda.

Know thine enemy, then kill him.

As for those who don't serve, don't start pointing at Congress.

Members of the 108th Congress Who Served or Are Serving in the Military
Senate Military Experience
Note: 35 have served in an active or reserve status
Note: Some individuals served in more than one service
and/or reserve component
	Any	Active	Reserve
	Service	Duty	or Guard	Reserve	Guard
Army	16	9	10	7	3
Navy	8	8	3	3	0
Marine Corps	6	5	1	1	0
Army Air Corps	1	1	0	0	0
Air Force	4	4	3	1	2
Coast Guard	0	0	0	0	0
Total	35	27	17	12	5
House of Representatives Military Experience
Note: 121 have served in an active or reserve status
Note: Some individuals served in more than one service
and/or reserve component
	Any	Active	Reserve
	Service	Duty	or Guard	Reserve	Guard
Army	74	48	43	26	17
Navy	13	12	3	3	0
Marine Corps	7	7	1	1	0
Air Force	25	18	12	2	10
Coast Guard	3	1	2	2	0
Total	122	86	61	34	27

Detailed breakdown here: http://veterans.house.gov/vetlink/memberstats.htm

and here : http://veterans.house.gov/vetlink/seanatestats.htm

So be careful, many of our congress are bery well thought of veterans and they do have members of their families in the military.

As for TV the only shows I get to watch are Power Rangers and anything to do with Dinosuars (I have a 7 year old son) after he goes to bed I read, or write on my book (a serial killer novel ;0 ).