>>> HONORING COPYRIGHTS - Not Just Stardock Works, But What's Used IN Them...

>>> ATTN: Moderators, Ethical Designers Here, and Stardock, Inc.

from WinCustomize Forums
Hello,

--- First, this is a suggested and legitimate point of view which is TIOLI (take it or leave it) open to anyone, yet geared at moderators and Stardock/Wincustomize staff.

--- Second, if you don't like what I'm saying (perhaps many members will feel like I'm being too "the way it really is" about this issue), please respect the view and stick to civil converstation/feedback.

--- Third, I'm posting this more as an editorial for I don't have the time to come back and get into dialogues for it's really a no-brainer and very self-explanatory stuff.

OK, so here goes...

______________________________


I'm not new to Stardock, but new to being a member and someone with a professional design background. So I know what is and is not REALLY legal and ethical in terms of copyrights. I also don't suscribe to the anything-goes-if-I-can-get-away-with-it or screw-the-big-corporations philosphies.

That said, I'm no saint and have downloaded a few most likely not 100% "free" pix here and there, but am very mindful about it. I also don't object to people using and taking what I design and post at my site (one design in particular is image-Googled alot and have no idea how that happens So I also keep what I put up to a minimum.

What I'm most concerned about in regards to Stardock and WinCustomize -- particularly but not limited to BootSkin, wallpaper and other galleries is:

--- The blatent use of product names, logos, trademarks, film and game characters, photos that look very pro, etc. etc. -- yet hardly anyone gives credit to any company or artist for using their stuff (from Microsoft to Star Wars, whatever (aside from original, inter-Stardock stuff, i.e. Window Blinds, etc. )

So my Q is:

--- Is anyone at Stardock/WinCustomize watching this -- and/or have permission from say, Microsoft, etc. to let their users use the above mentioned variety of copyrighted material ?

Now, I know the irony of this concern:

--- Companies and such actually get free advertising from such illegal use of their work. Example: I ride a Honda CBR motorcycle and bought a nice, affordable made-in-Thailand Honda jacket last year of off eBay that I found out later was not "official Honda." I'm not tossing it because of that, but I'm also not going to make that mistake again.

So maybe Stardock/WinCustomize just turn a blind eye on this issue, or not.
Maybe Microsoft and others dig the free publicity and have given Stardock permission.

I dunno.

Closing Point 1:

--- One one hand the powers that be here condone pages after pages of obvious copyright infringements by my fellow members, and yet on the other hand they publish a post with link to an article on copyrights (link provided below) -- which completely supports the suggested "let's keep it ethical" view.

If Stardock/WinCustomize actually applied what they link to, well, you know what would happen: Half of the galleries would be exiled to cyberia

Closing Point 2:

--- A more personal angle: This issue has in a way put a real dampner on what I feel I can download from WinCustomize with a clear conscience. Hell, I even feel a bit weird having a cool bootskin with "Windows XP" on it that I got here a couple of years agoe and still like -- but it's obviously an original design, not the XP logo, so I'm letting myself slide on it.

Life isn't black and white, but messing with too much gray isn't good for the soul, either.

----------------------

Alright, enough said. I've put it out there, you do with it what you will. Hopefully some brave moderators and/or Stardock staff frisbee in some feedback
Thanks for reading.


~ Soniclight (a.k.a. Philip)

--- The "ironic" reality of copyrights facts link page, right here at WinCustomize: "What To Do When Someone Steals Your Work" https://www.wincustomize.com/Articles.aspx?AID=112883
3,048 views 22 replies
Reply #1 from WinCustomize Forums Top
First of all, it goes without saying that you are right about BootSkins section -- I had been in contact with Mods(on IRC and through email) regarding ripped work and pointed-out many ripped ones and this IS a fact that too much ripped work IS there but there are few other things which I wish to point-out.. (And rememebr they are only my calculations which may be wrong)

- At WC, currently there are about 20 Mods/Super Mods (All Volunteers -- Work for free) and 5 Admins.

- On average, about 2million Unique users visit WC each month (I have excluded the regular visitors/community members) or 64,500 visitors per day.

- Let suppose only 05% of those visitots submit their work for BootSkins it counts to about 3,225 Submissions (Again exclude other submissions both from regular and non regular visitors)

- By dividing Submission/day on Number of Admins (3,225/21) we get 157 per admin. If an admin gives 02Hours for moderation of BootSkins, they will have to look-after about 79 skins.

- BootSkins is a free (and low periority/level) application as compared to WB and IP. Any ripper can convert any image into a bootscreen in flick (YES it takes only 10-15 mins.) and fire.

I think it is clear enough now .. how much pain those nice guys and gauls bear just for us .. for the community and get more dis-respect then to honour, more bad words and nicer ones, and more flames then to thanks .. !!

They are doing the best they can do -- and rest is upto us .. !!



-


Once there was an artist. One day, he hung a work (which he thought was his master-piece) at the main-saqure of his city and asked people to mark where they see something bad -- the very next day, he visited the location, the master-piece was all marked. Surely, he returned home with a broken-heart. When his father say him, he adviced him to choose an ordinary work of him and hang it where he had put his master-piece and give note that if any visitor see a mistake, please correct it. He did so.

The very next day, he visited the site -- he saw no mark there !!!

Moral: It is easy to flame then to correct .. !!
Reply #2 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Be prepared for a "we'll take it down if it's requested" answer.

You're also directing this to the same company that produced an Xbox 360 skin suite which from what i'm told was never sanctioned by Xbox - i spoke to Xbox myself and was told they didn't sanction it. Could be the person to whom i spoke was not privy to the information but since they rank high up i would feel safe in assuming that it was indeed done without prior approval.

Another reason i would assume there was no approval from Xbox would be because of how their logo/branding was treated. Anyone who has ever worked directly with Xbox would know there are rules and regulations governing the use of the branding. There is no chance that Xbox would have sanctioned the icons in the suite. I don't believe Xbox would allow their logo to sit inside of a recycle bin either. It's disrespectful to the brand but yet the suite has an icon that does just that.

So it will be interesting to see how the site owners respond to a query about copyright infrignement when um....
Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #3 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Seems the edit function has decided not work. I would change my statement of "there is no chance xbox would have sanctioned the icons in the suite" to "I don't believe they would", Since i can't really speak for Xbox other than
the fact that i was told this was indeed not sanctioned by them.
Reply #4 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I dunno. I'm as guilty as the next guy I suppose. I based a Winamp skin on a Joy Division album cover.

Question is. Who makes money off Bootskins ( or Winamp Classic skins for that matter )?
Reply #5 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I should also note that apparently Xbox isn't that miffed over it since they know about it and haven't requested it to be removed.
Reply #6 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I would think it would be a good time for someone to review the law and the way it is written for this accordingly...
That along with a simple statement of " what the hell are you doing here if you don't like the place ??"

The ins and outs of copyright laws are very strict and also made for the public health.
I kind of like that last part about health...

If everyone had their own art copyrighted and would not allow any images by any sort to be used -
where the hell would people see it - except at their site and on their stuff then.

The point of being able to present things with permissions and with approval is that we can help premote things for those people.

oh another thing...

The Mods and Admins here at wc and stardock do one hell of a great job!
I would rather you say something to the artist in question and leave the mods and admins out of this...

Do you really think it will get some better reaction by doing that? Let me tell you from past experiences - no it will not and these people here will not stand for it as I myself don't care for it also.
You got a better idea for doing things - then submit it to the staff at wc or stardock. Leave these people who work hard to get the site the best it is at all times with tons of traffic to go thru on a hourly basis ....alone....!

Also for other people like those of the skins factory and many many others here who post some of the best artwork that has ever been done almost... you should watch who and what you say to these people.
Can or could you do any better yourself ?? No I think not...

Please do use all a favor and try to see the real things and stop thinking of that which is negitive...
Thank you all
SGT
Reply #7 from WinCustomize Forums Top

SKoriginals

I removed your post because the edit function is not working at the moment, and, contrary to your 'not trying' you succeeded in singling out 3 people with your links....mouse-over gave their names even without opening the links.

Reply #8 from WinCustomize Forums Top
You're also directing this to the same company that produced an Xbox 360 skin suite which from what i'm told was never sanctioned by Xbox


Odd. Probably as far as sanctioned by XBOX. Though, I believe I read somewhere Stardock is a MS Partner so I'm gonna have to go with MicroSoft asked for it, as stated in the news letter I got recently:

Here's a skin we created at Microsoft's request for the Xbox 360:
Reply #9 from WinCustomize Forums Top
oh sorry about that Jafo, must have been some auto thing, didn't mean it....
Reply #10 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Be prepared for a "we'll take it down if it's requested" answer.

Probably because that is almost always the ultimate solution to what often has 'grey' areas.

The Wincustomize.com admins/wizops - moderators have a list of 'what is considered appropriate to host'.  It is true that not all share the same opinion as to what is suitable, [or not], but such determination is/has been a democratic process, and one that has been influenced by general Users' opinion, not just by those 'in charge'.

SonicLight  ...I, too have a 'professional design background', and have three decades of dealings with the realities of copyright therein.

Personally I think the whole world [not just here] would be a better place if 'fan art' and 'fair use' did not exist as dilutions of copyright control, but they do, within the Legislation of the US Copyright Laws by which this site is 'governed'.

It would be 'nice' if those 3 sections....[walls, boots, and Logons] were ONLY for 100% original images, and not modified/value-added/dithered images grabbed from the net 'somewhere' and used.  But when aboot uploader [for example] literally spams the section with images it's often quite effective to request links to their source to verify distribution rights [with or without 'modification'] and deny them if the source 'prohibits'.

The trouble there is that often the source has no legal right to the image's movements EITHER.

Then it's not just 'grey' it's downright obscured!

We 'could' reject any/ALL works without a source-link but when the source's 'rights' is questionable then that, too may be unfair to many.

There is NO simple answer/solution other than the one that is often used and people find 'dismissive' and that is.....if you believe you can do a better job of administering a skinning site such as Wincustomize.com then feel free to do so, and the best of luck with the venture.

However, no matter what course you take, or what 'ethos' you adopt, be prepared for the rantings of the disenchanted, for they WILL come....

Reply #11 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Jeff....yes, pity about the 'edit function' being AWOL at the moment....it would have been handy then to 'correct' your post, as Bichur mentioned....it was a sanctioned project...
Reply #12 from WinCustomize Forums Top
The Wincustomize.com admins/wizops - moderators have a list of 'what is considered appropriate to host'. It is true that not all share the same opinion as to what is suitable, [or not], but such determination is/has been a democratic process, and one that has been influenced by general Users' opinion, not just by those 'in charge'.

I've been trying to figure out how to say that, all day....

Reply #13 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Funny when i asked them they knew nothing about it.
Reply #14 from WinCustomize Forums Top
And like i said, we've worked with them over a dozen times and no Program Manager over there would ever let their logo sit inside of a recycle bin. But whatever. Spin it however you want. Maybe i'm wrong but somehow i doubt it.
Reply #15 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Maybe their logo in a trash can was a hint to go to work.
Reply #17 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Thanks to all for your comments on the general issue.

As far as companies are concerned, i.e. Microsoft, it's not as if they don't know about Stardock and WinCustomize (both have been around for a long time) -- and it's not like they would be unable to "track down" all copyright infringements here.

Be one Microsoft or other large companies or not, one can use the same technology that search engines and spambots use to find just about every site that were breaking the copyright rules -- probably with one keystroke and a little sorting out, and then sending out fleets of cease-and-desist emails.

It probably happens everyday on the Net in one way or another, I don't know. But my guess again is that it's that gray zone of free advertising for them. As far as tit-for-tatting or "well did this, so I'll do that", that's just self-justification behaviour, and a bit childish in my view.

In one sense it comes down to the spirit of the law v.s. the letter of the law, and alot of nuances and circumstances that can shade them thar gray areas. And just using one's own conscience and sense of decency, i.e. "Harm no-one," etc.

And as was pointed out by Adim Jafo, what is actually feasible to do on whatever end of the issue one may be, i.e. administrating a site like WinCustomize.

Bottom line:

--- At the end of the day, each one of us has to live with ourselves and our individual choices --- whatever we do or don't do, and whatever anybody else says or doesn't say.

--- And also irregardless of "democratic" or collective choices, for even those can be rather slanted one way or another. Human history has been and still is full of collectively agreed upon opinions that weren't really right on, only chosen.

Short personal version:

--- I decide for myself on what I feel is OK to download and use here irregardless of the site's own collective votes and/or other members' choices. Because once I log off the Net, it's just me, myself and I that I have to contend and live with

I'm outta here. NRN.
Reply #18 from WinCustomize Forums Top

  photos that look very pro

If that includes my photo wallpapers, I thank you for the compliment

Reply #19 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Maybe their logo in a trash can was a hint to go to work.


Reply #20 from WinCustomize Forums Top
wow my edit function is working fine here...
Nice piece there Paul - very well said and I agree completely too

good luck to em - they will need it - alot~!

SGT
Reply #21 from WinCustomize Forums Top

A couple of comments here:

#1 Stardock has Microsoft's permission for the Xbox 360 skin. I have personally demoed this skin to Microsoft and they are well aware of it.  What we weren't allowed to do is call it the official Microsoft Xbox 360 skin. But we have their okay to have an Xbox 360 skin. We talked to Microsoft BEFORE we posted it btw.  Of course, Jeff, if you think so lowly of us, feel free to take your stuff off the site and go away. You of all people know how seriously we take people's IP rights. It would have been a lot cheaper for us to not develop BootSkin and LogonStudio (both freeware) and instead just distribute the actual system files of Windows.  The only reason WindowBlinds doesn't natively support msstyles is because Microsoft requested we not -- before programs like Style XP existed.  We've sacrificed a great deal in honor people's intellectual property wishes.

#2 WinCustomize allows fan art.  So do most sites on the net.  To single WinCustomize out on the net seems a bit unreasonable.  I go to Google, Type Han Solo. Hundreds of pages of images. You don't like it. That's your right. But that doesn't make it illegal. Fan art on the Internet is a fact of life. The legality of it, at best is unknown. No one here is trying to sell copyrighted content.

#3 The moderation is done by unpaid volunteers.  Sometimes things slip through but we do make a good effort to try to protect people's intellectual property.

#4 We have always removed any works at the request of others if they could make a reasonable case that it violates their intellectual property rights.  We have even done this unilaterally.  For a long while, we forbid any Mac-like skins on the site even as commercial programs like Style XP bundled a Mac skin (and continue to do so to this day) which even have the Apple logo in them.  We don't pretend to be lawyers here. What we do know is that every skin site and fan site on the  net has much the same content.

#5 WinCustomize doesn't exist in a vacuum.  While there is certainly room to complain about boot screens that you feel have some trademark or other issue involved, other skin sites have boot screens that are not only the same in terms of content but are distributed as XP kernel files or in the case of logons are the actual logonui.exe's.  Complaining about WinCustomize while every other site is literally distributing patches .msstyles files, XP kernals, and logoinuis's seems very unreasonable too.  

#6 Similar to item #5, communities, websites, etc. cannot be compared to some imaginary, utopian ideal.  They are relative to other similar entities in reality.  Simpy put, there are no other major skin sites that are remotely as considerate of the intellectual property of others. 

Reply #22 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Funny when i asked them they knew nothing about it.


Wow, that must be some kind of a first.. A company the size of Microsoft having a case of one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing. Sounds like S.O.P. to me!