AI audit for 1.1

Areas to improve

Over good Friday I spent a few hours playing video games. Galactic Civilizations II actually.  With 1.1 nearly done, I wanted to make sure the rest of my AI tweaks started to get in.

Moreover, I wanted to try a game where the AI is at its most vulnerable: A game where planets are rare.  The fewer planets there are, the tougher it is for the computer players. That's one of the reasons why metaverse scoring rewards those who play with more planets available.

In this test game, each AI only gets 2 planets each just like me.  The question is how effective does each player use its planets and use starbases.

For reference, here is my planet:

Here is the Terran Alliance:

Very similar to my setup except they have more factories.

Here are the Drengin:

More emphasis on making money.

Here are the Drath:

Fairly balanced set up with more emphasis on money than us and lower approval from a higher tax rate.

Above are the Yor (a few turns later).  Reasonably good setup. They have pumped up their taxes some and have a pretty balanced planet.

So this is the galaxy. All players are set to "intelligent" ("difficulty = tough") which is the highest intelligence they go before they start getting bonuses and such.

The Stardock symbols are my worlds.  I'm going to take out the Yor (purple) first.

Let's take a look at the ships that the Yor are building:

The Yor are slightly ahead of me in miniaturization. I know that because their max capacity is 35 while mine is 32 (10% difference).  On their ship they've put Impulse Drive plus they've gotten to Mark IV lasers.  But as you can see, they're optimizing their space better (This is something I've worked on this weekend -- as any developer can tell you, it's tricky to have it "Smartly" optimize the use of a container without using an O^2 algorithm which I can't use since the AI has to design its ships almost instantly (or else the game would be unplayable at larger galaxy sizes).

My "F2-StarCat":

My rail gun Mark IV isn't as advanced as the laser Mark IV (uses more space).  But the net effect is that at this stage, the AI and myself have the same ships except theirs are faster.

One of the bigger changes I've done, which I'm not sure how "good" it is is that the AI players (all of them) are now more aware of the threat of sneak attacks. Top human players will tend to make a deadly lightning strike and essentially win the war in one turn. I.e. Blitzkrieg in space. This is a hard strategy to fight against because what players do is make their ships fast enough that they can be placed outside the AI's sensitivity zone.  So I've made it so that the AI now keeps more ships at home than it used to.

This is going to be a real problem with the Yor because...

It's now leaving 4 defenders in orbit (unlike the old days where it would just have 1).  So it's going to be some work.

I move into place. The Yor know what I'm going to do but it's too late.

Within a game year, the Yor are dead. Next up, the Iconians. Let's see what they're up to..

The good news from their point of view is that htey've built up some starbases.  They've actually got a pretty decent economy going.

Plus...

They built a military starbase that gives their ships +1 on attack that covers my entire civilization (except for one planet).  The Iconians have one key advantage, their home planet is a class 15 planet, their secondary planet is only a class 3 but that initial planet is very helpful.

The Iconians have been very busy too while I was taking care of the Yor.  Their class 15 world is doing very well.

Lots of money thanks to a higher population and higher tax rate and they've made full use of their special tiles. They are also upgrading one of their embassies into a farm.  When I see people on the forums say the "the AI" (each player has its own AI actually) doesn't use its planets well, I don't know what to say because I'm not seeing it.  Statistically, the AI will make mistakes for sure but it's certainly not the norm.  To me, this is a pretty spiffy planet setup.

But I'm going to see about taking them out anyway. But I'm going to have to be very surgical about it. So I build a special type of planetary invasion ship:

I almost feel bad, the Iconians like me.

But I can make new friends. The problem here is that I don't have a lot of forces and I have to take out that starbase that is giving them an edge. I can't beat the fleet on new Iconian otherwise.

My military build up is getting some kudos though.

That's right humans, suck up. You'll get your turn right after Poland, er I mean Iconia.  The Iconians are already at war with the Drengin. So I need to make sure I take out the Iconians first.

The war begins..

This is going to be a close battle.  The Iconians have a decent fleet protecting their world.

Ut oh. My spear head is wiped out. But I did take out their military starbase. I send in my reserves.

My second wave succeeds.

And that paves the way for my invasion. New Iconia is mine.

Being the evil bastard that I am, I offer them peace for a bunch of techs. Then I'll attack them again.

Incidentally, the game does allow you to double cross like that. But it decreases your likeability with other races since it's kind of scummy. ;)

With new Iconia mine, their minor colony is ready to defect. It might be cheaper to just let them be assimilated by my culture and move towards my next..victim.  The Drengin are at war with everyone else. They make a perfect target.

I have the Drengin beat in every way. This will be easy.

At this point, one might ask "Why don't the other guys do something about what I'm doing?"  The answer is, it's all in pattern recognition.  Now, this game is a pretty unique setup. Many of the people I see howl that the AI should be "Smarter" are likely playing on maps like I am where we all get 1 or 2 planets total with little ability to make use of the computer's natural advantage which is optimizing numbers. As soon as I took out the Yor, the balance shifted to me.  To thwart a strategy like this, players (including computer players) should get flagged when they go on wars of conquest. Then other players are more likely to go to war with them. 

Since I wrote the AI, I also know its secrets. I know, for instance that I have to keep the Drath happy because they do recognize wars of conquest and will pay others to unite in wars against those that do it.  But I've been keeping on their good side.  What will need to be done in the future is to expand on this pattern recognition.  But like I said, we're talking about a very specific map setup.

Of course, I haven't won yet. ;)

This is the Drengin Empire. Not too impressive. Surrounded by enemies, the only smart thing they've done this game is put their economy starbase behind their worlds out of reach.

Their planet is cranking out money. About the same as I am at this point. Note that they chose not to make use of the influence bonus tiles. That's not a bug. They simply decided that galactic achievements were more valuable. I would have to agree.

Their capital planet is defended by a fleet of 4 mark II defenders. They are essentially as good as my ships but no better.

So what are they doing wrong?

The Drengin have Singularity Mark IV.  Their ships are pathetic compared to what they could be building. Their latest ships known as mark III's all have singularity drivers but upgrading their ships in orbit would have been a good idea. The question is, why didn't they? Answer, same reason many humans don't, money. But I stop the debugger, make some adjustments here.

Since I know they're ahead of me technologically, I need to move quickly.

The Drath seem to be upset about the Korx.

Meh. The Korx are nothing to worry about. I'll get to them soon enough. I'll give the Drath some goodies though to help.

I also design some new ships with my latest/greatest stuff.

Like the poor Iconians, the Drengin are on friendly terms with me.  They have no idea I'm about to wipe them out.

The difference between 1.1 and 1.0X is really very apparent here.  I'm attacking a Drengin world and rather than encountering one pitiful defender in my sneak attack it's actually got a pretty decent little force here. It's still going to lose but it's a huge improvement.  I lose my capital ship in the process which is a bit painful.

One new change in v1.1 is that ships are named after who created them. So you can now tell when someone is supplying your enemies with ships.

The "Korx Frigate" is owned by the Drengin. The Korx gave it to the Drengin to fight me. But it's too late for the Drengin. Soon they're gone too.

Let's see, who's next?  Ah the snobby Altarians.

The Drath aren't having a good time. In fact, they're gone.

But they have given me what's left of their empire.  The Korx were too tough for them. Well I'll get to the Korx soon.

So here's where we're at:

I've got the bottom left corner. The Korx have the obttom right corner. The Altarians have two worlds just above me.

But the Altarians have been busy.

Look closely at this sceenshot.  The Altarians have 4 starbases ringing Altaria. Two military, two economy. The military ones are pumping up their ships quite a bit and will need to be removed.  But realistically, the Altarians aren't much of a threat.

Like the Drengin, they have a decent home defense but they're just too weak.

Rats. They escaped.

Okay, now I think I will deal with the Korx.  They aren't too threatening yet and I don't want to give them time to become a threat.

The Korx are currently involved in a war with the Torians.  I'm going to use that time to build up and study them.

Their home world is decently used. It's not as profitable as my home world is but it it's doing pretty well. But the Korx are worn down by the battle with the Torians. They are both ripe.

 

One of the things I'm noticing is that the AI isn't re-designing its ships often enough. This was put in for performance reasons but I think we can do it a better way (which I'm now implementing, recompiling, etc.).  It won't help the AI players this game, but it will help them in the future if they can make use of their new technologies more quickly.

I also design up a new ship for the Korx with a heavy emphasis on defending against missiles.

The Korx are offended.  But the question is, why aren't they doing more about this? They're set to intelligent. Though I do have the intelligences randomized.

Aha! The randomized intelligences save me.

Internally, they have to have at least a rating of 80 to do something about it. So I'm off the hook. The randomize intelligence feature adds or subtracts a few points from the AI randomly to give it more variety.

The Torians are losing but they won't have to worry about the Korx in a minute.

The Korx are defending their planets better than usual. Part of the reason is that all of the AI players will station attack ships in orbit now if it detects even the slighest threat. It makes doing these sneak attacks harder.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

"Why shouldn't I always just pick the evil choice?" This is why (one reason). I just lost three key worlds to these guys because my people revolted because of my evil ways.

I'll deal with that soon enough...

The Korx war is a bit of a challenge...

And ultimately they are defeated.

The rest is just epilogue.  I ally with the humans and the Torians and have them wipe out the Thalan for me.

So what lessons can be learned here?

  • The easiest way to defeat the AI is on rare habitable planets. The fewer planets that are available to exploit, the tougher the AI has it because it can't make use of its computing advantage.
  • The AI players need to update its ship designs more often (done now).
  • The AI players need to be more sensitive to military conquest strategies. I just marched right through and took them over. Of course, this was a very specific setup - rare planets, small galaxy so I could get away with this.  But still, any player marching through like this should get flagged and other civilizations should do the same.  In World War II, Germany nearly won.  Had they not back-stabbed the Soviet Union, things might have gone very differently.  In this game, there was no Britain equivalent.  Everyone just waited their turn to be attacked.  I'll have to put some thought on how to do that.

Not too many flaws though, it's just hard for anyone, even people in the real world, to deal with a focused aggressor. I think we can do something about that. Whether that'll make it into 1.1 or into 1.2 remains to be seen. 

128,772 views 40 replies
Reply #1 Top
I still noticed the AI put a technological capital on their world, but build no labs. I always see this on home worlds. They don't seem to specialize their planets to get the most bang for their buck. But it is still better than before when they didn't even build on the entire planet.
Reply #2 Top
aye. . . me at least, my 'capital' worlds have the entire infrastructure devoted to that building type, excepting 2 factories on tech/economic capitals to help it all build/upgrade.

Maybe that's just me being illogical

That said, damn Brad, this is very nice. THANK you for the REAL defending fleets. . . I get sick of picking off 1/0/0 0/0/0 1 speed small-hulled pansies on every single world I conquer
Reply #3 Top
One of the things I'm noticing is that the AI isn't re-designing its ships often enough. This was put in for performance reasons but I think we can do it a better way (which I'm now implementing, recompiling, etc.). It won't help the AI players this game, but it will help them in the future if they can make use of their new technologies more quickly.

Really good change. I had noticed that too.

A couple of comments:

Fundamentalists really need to have their own greetings, dialogue etc...
The same is true for the other major minor races, I-League for example.
And having their own portrait would be extremly cool. Making them into a real major race that could win the game, vote etc. would be awesome.

The Korx had researched all three weapon trees. Was there any point for this? It has been my experience in beta-3A &4 that AI:s switch weapon technology for no reason early in the game, especially pointless when no race has put any defenses on their ships yet. Much better to keep developing one weapon.
Iconians also had both beams and missiles. Altarians had both beams and missiles.
Adapting defences to the enemy is obviously good tactics. But the AI:s should be very careful about adapting their weapons.
Reply #4 Top
The main problem that jumps out at me is that the AI doesn't really have any plan or sense of direction while playing. Take a look at your graph, all the AIs flatline in regards to population very quickly. This means two things, the AI doesn't build/upgrade farms and the AI didn't attack each other(and if they did well they didn't succeed which seems to be the case in your game)

So yeah, the AI pretty much just waited to be killed. Now say if the Korx was doing the same thing as you, then the end agme might be a clash between two super-powers or at least a decent challenge instead of just mop up(which is insanely boring btw)

Also, you don't put your manufacturing cap on your homeworld? I always get a manufaturing cap up asap, and the AI always seems slow in getting theirs up.

Oh and about 'flagging' a player that is conquesting, yeah I remember the code in Civ2 doing that very well. Dunno exactly how it worked, but once you got fairly powerful everyone would start allying up against you. Maybe ni a future beta throw in 2 or 3 negative diplo's once you get +75% the pop of the 2nd best empire.

I like the AI in beta4 so far, still winning on Maso medium size though, keep up the good work.
Reply #5 Top
Agreed, good work. I gotta kind of disagree with you though about the AI having an advantage on more planets. It seems like the AI will take 6-8 planets on tough difficulty, and then it just kind of "crashes" it's industry goes from way higher than mine to nothing, and it stays that way for quite a while, only very gradually begining to pick back up again. This give me lot's of time to gobble up worlds, and usually gives me enough momentum that I can get way more worlds than the AI, which makes the outcome pretty much foregone (he who has the most planets, wins almost always, unless he totally screws up somehow).
Reply #6 Top
Yeah, I also think maps with more planets are easier, I usually play on Huge, Common systems and Occasional planets and habitable ones, non-random AI on painful. From beta 1 to 4 I actually felt the game became easier, to the point my last game with beta 4 felt a bit like Star Empires IV experience, where the AI's did nothing and watched me became overwhemingly powerful, they were all warm towards me, some where close, and then I decleared war on all of them at once and won by conquest

Perhaps I'm getting better faster than the AI's, I usually lack in every rating except tech (which I think is the most important) until past mid game after some wars. In my last game I was top 3 in every rating from start to finish, my tech rating looked like it was more than all of the AI (6 of them) combined.

But then again you are a single person trying to design AI's that defeat all of us strategy veterans, it won't be easy but it looks like a fun job (does that feel like a game in its own to you? ). I guess for now I'll just move up my difficulty setting. Good work and by the way, do AI's forge alliances among each other? I can't recall ever seeing that happening, would be nice in late game, I find the late stages in strategy games very boring (thus I almost never finish a game).

Reply #7 Top
Thanks for the info, I found it very enlightening. The biggest problem I can see with the AI are that it doesn't do a good job of threat assessment. It needs to be more proactive in eliminating the player or other AI's that are getting too powerful. It would be cool if weaker races would form coalitions to take on the stronger one. They should also be less likely to trade any techs, not just weapons techs, with the strongest race and more likely to trade techs with the weakest races. This should be especially true if a weak race shares a border with a strong race that has shown a tendency towards conquest. In that case it would be in all the other races interest to bolster the weak race, thus creating a sort of buffer zone. Of course it's easier said then done

keep up the good work.
Reply #8 Top
Being the evil bastard that I am, I offer them peace for a bunch of techs. Then I'll attack them again.

Would it not be possible, when you agree peace terms, that each side is obligated for 10 turns or so to maintain that agreement or if they break it then either trade or economic sanctions is place upon the aggressor...?
Reply #9 Top
You do these walkthroughs really well. I want the game! But I just finished playing several months of GCI last month and my butt needs some time to recuperate.

I'm appreciating your approach of playing on the difficulty level where the AI doesn't cheat. Before my attitude was "Who cares if the AI isn't very good on limited planets, just turn the difficulty up a notch." But setting yourself the challenge to make a fair AI that can handle limited planets means the game will actually play differently on limited planets, adding replay value. And you make all the difficulty levels a little more fun by making the AI brighter.
Reply #10 Top
Draginol: "Since I wrote the AI, I also know its secrets. I know, for instance that I have to keep the Drath happy because they do recognize wars of conquest and will pay others to unite in wars against those that do it. But I've been keeping on their good side. What will need to be done in the future is to expand on this pattern recognition. But like I said, we're talking about a very specific map setup."

Are there some Civs that don`t recognize this or are just a bit slower at recognizing it? (Hmmm.. I thought the Altarians were our neighbours, were do all the Drengin come from.. did anybody else notice this?)

Don't get me wrong, I think thats a great idea, because it adds to variety and I really like the different characters of Races - great Atmosphere that gets you even more involved on an emotional level. And thats what we are looking for in a game isn't it ( OK , winning is fun too, of course...) !

But the game could expand even more on this. It would be nice to have more "in depth" information about the races and their motivations in specific game. I don't want to know the precise "formula" for the Drath behavior for example, because that would destroy the atmosphere created by the remaining amount of uncertainity and this feeling that everything could happen. But it would be nice to know more about that what draginol said and a races overall attitude to militaristic races, influential races, trading races etc. and to get more information on what they are up to and their interaction with other races.
This probably could be / should be related to the espionage level?
I know that sometimes I get reports saying "rumors say that the Thalans are paying the Drengin to keep the peace".
There should also be those saying "the Drath are trying to form an alliance against us / are paying the Altarians to attack us". Or are those already in the game and In just didn't get them?

( by the way: do those mean that tehe Thalans pay the Drengin not to attack THEM or not ot attack OTHERS ? )

Ther should be more of these rumors and other races should contact you more often saying things like "we think
the Arceans are getting too strong" "the Torians are getting too many" "we all need to keep an eye on Yor expansion".
Maybe races with warm/friendly relations could have more "dialogue" asking for things and giving information?
And not only on the military level.

OK, thats enough for now and not ebtirely on subject... sorry.

I love what you did with the AI so far and what you are still doing and you commitment for improving it. Even with bad graphics and terrible sound that would be a reason to buy this game!




Reply #11 Top
I'm happy once again with your dedication to a good AI, Brad.

A suggestion regarding the "stop the total conquest" problem: As suggested above, there should be a significant diplomatic penalty for the race perceived as being on a killing spree AND a diplomatic bonus for all other races among each other (like the Western Allies and the Soviets working together in WW2).
The perception of a "dangerous aggressor" could be based on the share of each race of the total PQ available in the galaxy (depending on the number of races still around as well). PQ is probably more precise than number of planets or population, and it's no voodoo magic as planet classes and ownership are a known fact to everyone.
If I'm not mistaken the AI will (almost?) never attack somebody much higher in military rating or even at the top of the list, there should be exceptions to this rule because otherwise the mechanisms described above won't work.

Other than that - thanks again! I'm looking forward to having more trouble winning the game!
Reply #12 Top
The new build ( "But I stop the debugger, make some adjustments here.") is disponible for us common mortals when ?
Reply #13 Top
Moreover, I wanted to try a game where the AI is at its most vulnerable: A game where planets are rare. The fewer planets there are, the tougher it is for the computer players. That's one of the reasons why metaverse scoring rewards those who play with more planets available.

As there any supplementary reward compared to the one associated with more habitable planets = more population and faster research?

I gotta kind of disagree with you though about the AI having an advantage on more planets. It seems like the AI will take 6-8 planets on tough difficulty, and then it just kind of "crashes" it's industry goes from way higher than mine to nothing, and it stays that way for quite a while, only very gradually begining to pick back up again

I wonder what is the breaking point in term of planets for the AI: when is the AI starting to have a reduced general spending (lower than 100%, lower than 75%, lower than 50% ...) ?
Reply #14 Top
In Beta 4 the AI's (at least some if not all) are still building colony ships with a movement of 2. Can the 1.1 version put an end to this because the AI colonisation attempts at the moment are a joke.

The AI's need to make colony ships with at least movement 4 and really should be spending 100% on military building colony ships in 2/3 turns after it's bought a load of colony ships/industry early on.

Not sure if the AI's still do this but they really should not be sending out colony ships without 200 million people from their homeworld. If they maxed out morale to achieve max growth rate they could be sending out near 500 million every 2/3 turns.

You mentioned in the journal that the AI's need a certain amount of planets before its mathematical advantages come into play. Getting colonisation right should therefore be an important area of focus as it is currently woeful, a half decent player can dominate the AI's at the moment taking planets that we should have no hope of getting.

Brad, out of interest what is the min number of planets the AI's need to be effective in your opinion?


Lenius.
Reply #15 Top
In the game I played, every AI had colony ships that moved at least 3 units.
Reply #16 Top
Everyone just waited their turn to be attacked. I'll have to put some thought on how to do that.

Weaker races need to start quckly trying to get alliances to avoid being crushed by a superpower either with a superpower, or a coaltion to oppose them. Once one race starts becoming dominant, everyone should be picking sides to join them in an alliance or oppose them with an alliance. Perhaps you could also add defensive pacts, and joint declarations of war into the diplomacy?
Reply #17 Top
In the game I played, every AI had colony ships that moved at least 3 units.


Movement 3 should really be the absolute minimum and only if they need to be putting range modules on because the planets the AI's are trying to colonise far off planets. eg secluded hard to get to star systems in corner of map or top two map sizes.
Reply #18 Top
While I definitely agree that the AI is at its most vulnerable position when it only has 2 planets to work with (because one swift strike and it's over), I don't think the AI actually does any better when there are many planets available. I have a theory on why this is the case, and since it's only a theory, it may be wrong, but here's typical of what I've seen from gameplay experience with many habitable worlds (large, scattered, abudant, 9 AI, painful difficulty - 'Gifted' AI):

1. "The Game Starts..."
- The AI will initially rush build a lot of colony ships and then slump into a economic depression when it just can't afford to buy or build anything on its new planets. The main reason for this seems to be due to low population on the colonies (not a lot of taxes), and the maintenance cost associated with them. Of course I will have to go through something like this too, but I have forseen this problem before hand, and instead of buying colonyships outright until near bankruptcy, I will rush build them with 80% military in deficit after two turns (after buying factories). This way, my planets will have time to grow, and I don't waste as much money.

2. "The Depression..."
- During the depression, the lack of a strong economic backbone, leads to their construction and researching efforts grinding to a halt (or almost). Basically, they sit around and wait for their planet to build up population and tax. This is even worse because they seem to want surplus money so that they can resume buying ships (more colony ships), so their construction is just abysmal. What happens is a lot of planets (basically their outer colonies) will be nearly empty for most of this part (they seem to focus on building their homeworld up more, whether that's because they had more factories there to build it up with, or are buying structures I don't know, but their homeworlds are usually full, while a lot of worlds will be empty during this stage). Meanwhile, although I will be at a disadvantage at the start of this depression, I will be able to quickly catch up to them in the number of colonies, while being able to continually build up my planetary infrastructure and coming out of deficit spending as well.

3. "The Second Colony Rush..."
- After building up their economy (which might take several months or longer), the AI will resume it's attempts to get even more colonies. This is the stage where a lot of players and AI will come out clearly as a "super power". In most games, the Torians and Thalans recover from their depression the fastest (pop growth bonus), and grow much bigger than everyone else (except for me of course). The worse part is, because they are getting new colonies that is now draining away their economies again, their construction plummets again, into a near depression. Luckily, before that happens again, most of the planets will have end up with someone already. Usually, the majority will be own by me, the Torians, and the Thalans (unless there was some wacky starting position).

4. "The Build Up..."
- As the colonizing phase comes to a conclusion, the races starts gearing up their worlds to prepare for the chaos that will ensue. This is probably the most dissapointing part of the AI that I have found. In this part of the game, the AI will try to optimize it's funds, and well... there are just all kinds of wierd quirks. I will see the AI building 5-6 farms on planets (the Dregins do this a lot, but I've seen others do it as well), but have no morale building, so when it gets to 15+B, the morale is at ~20%, and their planet never grows, wasting 4 farms (and more importantly 4 spaces for econ buildings). Then, I will see border planets filled with nothing but morale buildings (5-6 of them, even on influence and minor research bonuses), but with 5B people, what the heck is the point? One should be more than enough there. They don't seem to focus their worlds all that well, although that could be a good thing, but making these wierd planets is really questionable. At this same time, the AI will begin building massive amounts of trade vessels and start trading with one another. Unfortunately, their routes are usually between two 5B planets, while mine would be between economic capitals. I will trade with as many weak races as possible, because the strongest ones will die soon. While all this is going on, my starbases starts filling the galaxy, and my planets are ready for war, pumping troops into transports as soon as they start hitting their population limit.

5. "The Battle Starts..."
- Usually I will gun the Torians or Thalans down first (because they are usually biggest and have massive influence), but generally I will attack one of the two strongest civ (the one closest to me), while paying everyone else to keep the other guy busy (or turn them against one another before my assault if that's possible). This will have a lot of useful side effects, such as all the AI will start rapidly researching defense and starts cycling weapons, while I can just focus on my main one. So while the AI will have all three types of weapons and defenses, my main weapon does 3 times the damage. Then, when it comes time for my assault, the AI, while they will try to defend their planet much more so than before, fails to realize that actually sitting there in orbit to defend planets is a really bad idea. The problem is that the attacker will be able to unload a full salvo against you, and so he can just happily skip all his defenses and go for full weapons. Not only does this make the attacking ship extremely cheap and replaceable, it also means your defensive ship doesn't stand a chance in hell because half of them will probably be gone after the first round. Worse is that their early starbases never includes fortifications, and so they too will die in one or two rounds. After a few months, one of the two population heavy super powers will be dead and I will have a ton of planets more than the next guy. At this point, it's pretty much over, even though the other guy is still quite big.

6. "Cleaning up..."
- Cleaning up is a simple matter of influence. With my strong and stable core worlds, a new massive frontier just waiting to be populated by transports, and the highest military rating around (due to weapon tech), no one really wants to fight me. I will occasionally feed some ships to the weaker powers to fight the bigger ones until my network of starbases literally absorb everyone, or I can just quit now. I'm usually neutral at this point, insanely rich, and so heavily fortified that even if all the AI united against me it probably wouldn't really help.

In these cases, more planets doesn't really help the AI at all. Does it give them more of an edge because they can optimize? Probably, but does that make it up for those wierd food/morale worlds? Probably not. Even if it does, I'm confident that I can take advantage of the massive amount of worlds a lot better than the AI simply because I have a clear and precise strategy. Where as, the AI will try to balance it out all over the place, and while it may be able to squeeze a little more out of each world than I can, lacking a definite strategy dooms it. The only AIs that have been consistently challenging in the betas (4 and previous) have been the Torians and the Thalans, both of them play a mean influence game, but that is purely the result of their massive population, not because of anything in particular that they do right.



With that said, here's the theory I mentioned at the start of my post: The AIs have been severely crippled by this new population growth formula. Why? Because the way they were programmed to colonize (buy ships as much as possible to gain an early edge) is like digging their own grave when there are many planets and they just don't have enough starting funds to support it. As a result they end up in a terrible position when they start running out of money. When Stardock noted the population growth changes in the logs I knew right away that I need to readapt my colonizing strategy. Sure, it took me a few games to figure out what works best, but the AI doesn't seem to have adapted at all. They will merily do the same old things, sometimes putting down planets with such a low population that it seems down right silly (I've seen planets starting at 5M).

So how can the AI improve? Perhaps they need to reevaluate their early game colonizing efforts, and balance it better with planetary developement at least for large abundant galaxies where their starting funds just won't be enough. Then, each will need some clear strategy and focus. For example, the Dregins should set themselves an objective, like conquering the closest good race, trying their best to ignore everyone else if at all possible (unless they can take them down very swiftly). Perhaps better utilization of tiles would help, and I don't mean specialization or bonus tile usage, I mean the AI needs to realize that if they put down a farm, they also need to put down a morale building, and that morale buildings just aren't needed once you have 100% morale (at least upgrade it to something more useful, like economic buildings).



PS: A little offtopic, but IMHO, the multiple starport and non-habitable tiles construction bug should really be fixed before 1.1 is released officially. Not only is it annoying, but it leaves me wondering how in the world does the AI benefit from doing this. Assuming that it can still produces ships from those worlds with multiple starports (unlike the player) it's practically dumping resources down the drain and wasting valuable tiles, and that can't be a good thing if you're talking about optimization being its strength. If it can't produce ships there like us, then it REALLY needs to be fixed ASAP (it's good, but no where enough to be giving us handicaps). As for building a building on nonhabitable tiles and then upgrading to soil improvement afterwards... that's just... bad all over the place. I can't believe people actually thinks that the AI is cheating (you must have seen the threads) when it's practically shooting itself in the foot by doing this. I don't really mind waiting another week or so... but these gameplay elements should definitely be addressed.
Reply #19 Top

PS: A little offtopic, but IMHO, the multiple starport and non-habitable tiles construction bug should really be fixed before 1.1 is released officially. Not only is it annoying, but it leaves me wondering how in the world does the AI benefit from doing this. Assuming that it can still produces ships from those worlds with multiple starports (unlike the player) it's practically dumping resources down the drain and wasting valuable tiles, and that can't be a good thing if you're talking about optimization being its strength. If it can't produce ships there like us, then it REALLY needs to be fixed ASAP (it's good, but no where enough to be giving us handicaps). As for building a building on nonhabitable tiles and then upgrading to soil improvement afterwards... that's just... bad all over the place. I can't believe people actually thinks that the AI is cheating (you must have seen the threads) when it's practically shooting itself in the foot by doing this. I don't really mind waiting another week or so... but these gameplay elements should definitely be addressed.

If I could reproduce it, I'd fix it.  But I've yet to see it.   And it's important to remember a lot of people have been waiting a long time and the issue is essentially cosmetic, the AI isn't benefitting from it at all.

Reply #20 Top

So how can the AI improve? Perhaps they need to reevaluate their early game colonizing efforts, and balance it better with planetary developement at least for large abundant galaxies where their starting funds just won't be enough. Then, each will need some clear strategy and focus. For example, the Dregins should set themselves an objective, like conquering the closest good race, trying their best to ignore everyone else if at all possible (unless they can take them down very swiftly). Perhaps better utilization of tiles would help, and I don't mean specialization or bonus tile usage, I mean the AI needs to realize that if they put down a farm, they also need to put down a morale building, and that morale buildings just aren't needed once you have 100% morale (at least upgrade it to something more useful, like economic buildings).

The AI already tries to do all these things.  There is no easy pComputerPlayer->PlayBetter() function unfortunately. 

Reply #21 Top
Kalen said a lot.

And stole my thunder. Great job Kalen.

I would like to add that there is a simple solution to most of the AI usage of planet tiles. The AI should focus on factories before building anything else on a planet. I don’t mean a mass of factories. I mean 1 or 2 to start, then begin adding other infrastructure.

And on this point, why do I see the AI changing a stock market to a farm when it still has 8 empty tiles on the same planet?

This is my basic build on new planets, it’s not perfect but it is balanced and is a good start. I don’t see anything like this from the AI.

2 factory’s (Using bonus tiles first) Buying the first one when I have funds.
1 Media center (Using bonus if present) This will keep moral up for faster production
1 Starport (Note I said 1 starport not 3 starports)
1 Farm (If you have to ask why stop reading)

I am sure others can do better, but this is how I start 90% of my planets. By the time the starport is built I have good enough pop to build 500 mil colony ships with enough population that planetary population can continue to grow with little long-term effects. Also the planet then can be adjusted into any type of planet I would need with little effort or wholesale changes to my starting buildings.

I also agree with Kalens assessment of the AI diplomacy. It is very poor. I can’t get the little guys to join in a fight against the biggest guy on the block, But it cost very little to get the big guy to attack every race in the game. This is just as easy if I am at war with them at the same time I am asking them to attack others. And the AI does not seem to know culture is overwhelming it. Look even if I was losing the culture battle I would not sit there and lose planet after planet. I would attack and kill the race taking my planets.

On a side note, It would be nice if planets would not succumb to the culture conquest when their race is at war with the race attempting to steal it.

Also there should be 2 ways for a race to start a war.

1. Declare war then attack. (not an option for the player at this point)
2. Sneak attack (This should have a negative effect with all the races in diplomacy)

I know all this could be posted elsewhere. But I had to get this off my chest.

I love the game, and I really respect the people trying to make this game better.

Keep up the good work guys.
Reply #22 Top
Always nice to see an *under the hood* type walkthrough of one of your tests. If nothing else verifies things that we see but aren't sure if are intended or not.

I can verify that the AI is building colony ships with more speed. The game I'm currently playing with B4 the AI had built ships with speed of 6 while I was running with 4s. Needless to say I didn't figure it out until after it had run past me to a few really nice planets. It is currently building range into its ships far more then needed though. I've seen some designs with two or three range extensions. Again this is on a huge map so its probably coded to do so but honestly it's just a waste of space unless your enemy is clear across the map. And even then there are always worlds in between to take first .

I'm sorry but it really cracks me up when people say *well just improve this* aspect. That simple request is probably thousands of lines of code assuming it could even be coded to run within a reasonable period of time. I'm not sure if you've every pointed it out but not only does your AI need to play well but it must do it without taking hours to figure out it's next move. Personally I think what you are doing is definitely pushing the limits of gaming AI.

I'm actually shocked you haven't seen the *multiple starport but really a soil enh upgrade* bug. I get it almost every game on multiple AI worlds. Maybe it's something that only happens after the AI gets a certain number of colonies under its control. I play exclusively on a Huge maps with stars set to abundant and everything else set to common. Also I think this sort of thing ties into the AI not using it's planets very well. It seems to do ok with its home system and maybe a few others but once it gets beyond say ten or fifteen colonies it really starts to do what I'd say is goofy stuff like building on a class 8 planet a starport, a cultural center, 2 farms, and a lab. No factory at all nor does it even finish building on all the squares. I'll have to start to pay closer attention to when the AI starts to neglect its later colonies but for now might I suggest you play a slightly longer game to see if some of this stuff occurs
Reply #23 Top
To Draginol.

"If I could reproduce it, I'd fix it. But I've yet to see it. And it's important to remember a lot of people have been waiting a long time and the issue is essentially cosmetic, the AI isn't benefitting from it at all."

Play on huge galaxys with lots of planets. The Torian do it a lot on outer colonys.

The problem is that if you destroy a starport you cant build any ships there. They seem to be putting the extra starports on uninhabitable tiles that would need upgraded before building anything. I upgrade the tiles when I capture the planets and destroy all the starports I can. Then rebuild from there. Sometimes after clearing the planets of all buildings the game will not alow me to rebuild a startport at all on that planet. 95% of the time I can build a starport after clearing all the buildings, but sometimes you can't.

In the planet screen you can set the planet to build a ship with 3 starports, but on the galaxy screen the planet will read (No starport) and in the colonys screen under ships building you can't see the ship you are set to build. But when you sort by ships the planet will be in the middle of the listed ship it was set for but remain blank.
Reply #24 Top
I have to add that I also have seen the AI build some weird planets.
I conquered three Korx planets recently in my latest game begun in beta-3A. The two of them that were a little over pq 10 both had 5 to 6 entertainment centers and 0 farms.
Haven't seen the multiple starport-bug yet though.

But I mostly think the AI is doing a good job developing it's planets. That's not the reason that I repeatedly crush them.
Take the Drengin in my latest game for example. They have 21 planets (impressive considering that they had 6 after colonization while most had at ~9), I have 20. They have conquered 2 races, I have conquered 2 races. I have done lots of research in guns, they have done research in all three weapon-trees. Why?
I haven't seen the races he has been been at war with build any ships that would give him any reason at all to change weapons. So instead of having great beams by now, he has mediocre beams, mediocre missiles and mediocre guns. I have heavy fighters doing 12 damage. He had heavy fighters doing ~6 beam-damage, then he switched to missiles until he had heavy fighter that did ~6 damage and now he has switched to guns and has at the moment weapons that does ~6 damage.
Note that I could have done alot more weapons research by this point, but there is no need when the AI:s are unable to concentrate on one weapon. The same is true of defence, I haven't felt the need to research any defence at all yet since my attack rating is so much bigger than everyone else anyway.

I also play without tech-trading and all AI:s have completly ignored any government-techs and Xeno Ethics, and I have played exactly four years by now.
Big mistake.
Many of the races also still take too long time to research medium hulls. Drengin for example still doesn't have it and he aint the only one.
Reply #25 Top
I have seen the problem on the Yor homeworld with AI building on a tile that need to be improved first. I am wondering if it is linked with the fact that the AI did have Soil improvement and habitat improvement. Maybe there is glitch in the AI code where it thinks that a tile that needs soil improvement is a buildable tile once the AI has habitat improvement.

But to see exactly when this happen is pretty tricky since it require to have enough spying level on a particluar race to see what it is building.