While driving to work [On Starforce]

Thoughts about the Starforce Boycot.

from JoeUser Forums

While driving to work today I was thinking about Starforce and how it is being applied by Publishers and Developers to software titles many gamers are interested in purchasing, and how gamers attempt to combat it.

But is it Starforce we should blame, or is it the industry as a whole, spesifically targeting the Software Publishers & Developers who decide to utilize it.

There is no doubt to anyone that Starforce is a very strong restriction technology that can be applied to software, but is it the right kind of software to utilize for games, that is the question.



The way I see it, Starforce are the manufacturers of guns, but they only offer it on the market, and it is up to those who purchase it to decide on its implementation.

Do you blame the gun manufacturer or the user for killing?

Killing is more fitting word than I first though, as they are in fact killing our enjoyment of gaming, where instead of being interested in what features the game has, or commenting on the screenshots, videos and stories the games tell, we are more and more interested in only knowing one or two things:

- Will it use Starforce, SecuRom, SafeDisc, LaserLock, TAGES, Fade, ETc etc etc..
- Will it require Media in drive (Dongle use) to be enjoyed

This, I believe, also explains why companies such as Stardock have had a phenomenal success, because the most important question many gamers ask today, is already answered : NO, we do not employ copy restriction (Guns) on our software, because we view you as a valued CUSTOMER instead of a CONSUMER.


If 'we' are to boycot someone, it should not be targeting the company Starforce and their communication problems with the (mostly) western users.

Around the world, people have different methods of communicating as well as a different way of interpreting what is being communicated to them.
This results in miscommunication which could explain why some in the west see them as Arrogant Bastards, whereas they view themselves as Strong. We also have the language barrier to consider.

Regardless:

The issue is the Starforce technology being applied by many larger scale publishers, most notably UBI-SOFT and CODEMASTERS, which are the companies that should be targeted with a Consumer Boycot, not the company STARFORCE who produce the technology. Starforce produce the guns that Codemasters, Ubi-Soft, Jowood and others utilize to destroy our enjoyment of games.
138,775 views 37 replies
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I think the problem is that many companies focus their efforts on pirates instead of buyers... They only think in "destroying" the pirates, and they don´t care if they affect the buyers as well... The buyers are like "colateral casualties" to them in their war against the pirates...
The Political Machine 2024
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Good points! I know I check reviews and will not buy anything that has StarForce--no matter how much I may want the game.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I remember a patch including SECUROM which meant the game loaded and then did not recognise the gamedisc in my CD-drive. This was happening to all of us. So we HAD to get the crack to play our legal copies, or play with the release version. How does this discourage piracy?
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The problem with the copy protection system is the assumtion that if they stop piracy, sales will go up. Perhaps its a bit of ego too in that if sales did not equal what was expected, its not that the game is poor or not what the consumers wanted, its piracy.

Keep in mind that Stardock's model is one of streamlined work. Small teams(compared to AAA titles) and realistic expectations. They did not blow the company on one game as many companies do and would rather have a long term job than risk it all on a possible grand slam title and only get a line drive.

If a company is not doing well with one product, rather than downsize slightly and go after a more streamlined game they ramp up even more and try for a bigger game, bet the farm and sometimes win but often lose. So rather than blame thier design, company model or just the fates, they blame pirates.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
What you are forgetting is that Starforce started this whole issue. After reading what they posted and responded to on their own website, I will never support any game using their technology. They tried to do something underhanded and got busted, now they will end up seeing the results of that mistake.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Reply to Xenocide III:
Well, you can argue that Starforce started this issue when they released their product, but it did'nt affect customers (or consumers in their view) until Publishers started applying the Starforce Restriction to their games, thereby ruining the enjoyment of the game for many people.

That Starforce have gone from one public relations fiasco to another I wont argue, and it reflects poorly on them as a company when they write some of the drivel they do. But much of what Starforce is saying, with regards to "only pirates complain" etc. is an attitude that you also have in many large publishers, such as UBI-Soft/JoWood etc. So they (Starforce) are not alone in that view, although they are somewhat more "open" when it comes to revealing what they really think. I think its both a cultural reason for their communication differences as well as their grasp of the English language. Of course, they also hate people



Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
We can't boycot Starforce, unless we are making a game, and want to use it as copy protection. I have always "boycotted" games that use Starforce, because I don't want that POS on my computer. I was going to buy Heroes of Might and Magic 5 until I found out that they use Starforce. I refuse to buy it now. It is not to hurt the publisher, but because I don't trust that software. It does hurt the publisher, but that was something they should have thought of before they decided to use questionable software.
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
This kinda crap is also one of the main reasons I continue to revert back to console if I have a choice.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
@iTZKooPA

Yea; Your comment made me think about my gaming purchases for the last 2 years, and they are almost entirely Console Titles.

The great side effect of owning a modified XBOX is that I can load the games I purchase onto the hard-drive and not have to worry about
the discs anymore, so I can store them in the sleeve until they rot (like my Wing Commander III Cd's )

Its fun when you hear "PC Gaming is dying" and people point to the consoles (Which also has piracy, but nothing that breaks your hardware, unless you think about the XBox Stealth Updates) for a scene that is thriving. I wonder how many of those who say PC Gaming is dying are actually responsible for it themselves, through their agressive user-unfriendlieness.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Good thoughtful post instant. Beats my "this is gonna suck" thoughts on the way to my job. I'd still rather game on my pc than on my x360. While playing the new GRAW, I still get frustrated with the lack of precision that a keyboard/mouse afford.
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
We can't boycot Starforce, unless we are making a game, and want to use it as copy protection. I have always "boycotted" games that use Starforce, because I don't want that POS on my computer. I was going to buy Heroes of Might and Magic 5 until I found out that they use Starforce. I refuse to buy it now. It is not to hurt the publisher, but because I don't trust that software. It does hurt the publisher, but that was something they should have thought of before they decided to use questionable software.


I have the exact same though, we should write them a damned letter and show them how many people refuse to buy their product because of the DRM. Or ask them if we could just pirate it and send them a check for $50...But seriously, someone draft a damned letter, we got them to delay the game already...
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
I've previously emailed publishers/developers in an attempt to purchase their games without DRM Lockdowns (Starforce, Cd-check etc).. and offered to pay upwards to the sum of 100$ for such a product.... but the emails remain unanswered to this day.

Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
I am starting to think that emailing publishers regarding the issue is pointless... I'll just not spend any money on the games that are restricted and play others instead (Like GalCiv1 & 2)..

And if I ever get tired of GalCiv2, there will either be an expansion pack, or I can play the truckload of RPGs I have on my Playstation 2..

So many games I'd like to have played...
Oh whell. When is the next Wheel of time Book out?




Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
So rather than blame thier design, company model or just the fates, they blame pirates.


Amen. Moo3 *shudder* there's a piece of work that was a huge surprise to its fans. A bad surprise at that. No amount of copy-protection could stop people trying to get their money back at the retailer.

Let's provide another example, shall we? Might and Magic 9. While I liked the M&M Rpgs(and the HOMM TBS games). Nine was rushed out the door, literally. Jon Van Caneghem was forced to put it out and provided little to no input. I really felt that after 7 they just started changing names... the monsters are the same, the dungeons.. who knows, same old spells.. wait lets make them use 4 characters instead of 6. Ubisoft now has the copyrights, despite what NWC Ceo said about the matter, "I'll never sell them Ubisoft. "

I bought almost every title with "Might and Magic" in it (Pc titles ). I drew the line when it crossed into FPS. I like many others would want to play the new titles HoMM 5, and Messiah of Might & Magic but not if its coming with Starforce.
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I think the poster is a little confused about the "boycott" thing all together. There is no way gamers can boycott StarForce because none of us buys StarForce in the first place. We only choose not to buy games that utilize StarForce, so we are blaming the people that use the guns and not blaming the gun manufacturer as you put it.

I want to make another point here as well. StarDock success in GC2 is an eye sore for StarForce. They fear StarDock in that this success could convince the rest of the PC gaming industry into following the same approach. If it does turn out that way, StarForce's business would collapse. Hopefully this would bring some console gamers back to the PC market.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
@dmcccdmn: I'm confused?
The thing is, people are attacking the company starforce, instead of the companies that utilize Starforces products.
Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
I found an awesome site with some information about StarForce, including a list of games using it. http://www.glop.org/starforce/
I don't mean to pull anyone away from this site, but I thought that everyone should take a look.
Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
StarForce supplies a product which publishers want, and it works better than the rest of its competitors.
And It's stupid to blame StarForce for that GalCiv II torrent link since it wasn't the company that did it but one of their employees!
I'll have to ask you something though: If a copyprotection would emerge which would couldn't be emulated or cracked (Everything can be reverseenginered, lets say it takes too long) and which wouldn't damage any soft- or hardware, would you still complain then??

And I consider the "privacy" argument concering the StarForce drivers as bogus since many other programs install drivers that gets lvl0 access. (Saw a list somewhere. Was over 30 programs, many of them anti-viruses and firewalls).

Shouldn't have to type this last things but I feel kinda forced to do it as some people would surely insunate something about it otherwise....no I don't like software that can damage my soft- or hardware.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
@Campaigner:

The difference is that, when you install a AntiVirus application, you expect it to be installed with the necessary rights to remove viruses.
When you install a Firewall, you expect it to be installed with enough access to both avoid being fubared by other apps, as well as protecting your network reasonably well.

Both of these application types are installed with the full knowledge of the user, and believe me, I'd get pretty pissed if a game demo I installed came with a firewall piggybacking that installed itself without my knowledge or consent and proceeded to mess up my computer configuration, and even more so when it did not even have a uninstallation or a entry in add/remove programs.

the company Starforce are to blame for incompatilibty issues, bad support, PIO Stepdown and broken DVD+/-RW drives, BlueScreens, slow loading, not-loading at all.

The Publishers of software that utilizes Starforce restriction are to blame for installation not informing you, readme/faq/text not informing you, uninstaller not removing it, using Starforce, having some support themselves - and moving some support to Starforce in russia where many of the support engineers have a "Unique" way of communicating with their users, incompatibility issues with updated windows versions (x64, vista).

And the customer is to blame for purchasing software with the knowledge of it being infected with starforce, thus supporting its future.

I'd complain as long as restriction software is used on games, it affects the performance of the games, and it requires me to use a dongle (the cd in drive) to play the game. Both of which are detriment to the gaming enjoyment.

One good example, which was the end of me buying games (not related to starforce):

Playing Raven Shield required Cd-in-Drive. So you insert the CD, then connect to a server to play. Well, this sucked, disconnect, maybe I should play Battlefield 1942 - Desert Combat instead. Remove CD, find BAttlefield CD, Insert battlefield CD, connect, authentication, checking cd, playing for 15 minutes... new map, checking cd, Maybe I should play Flashpoint instead. Exit Battlefield CD, Find Flashpoint Cd, Insert Flashpoint CD, Launch game, Check CD, connecting, oh darn - game already in progress, check other servers, no servers available with gametype wanted (CTI), exit game, remove cd, maybe play Morrowind, find morrowind CD, insert morrowind cd, Hey, I bought morrowind on Launch date - lucky I am to get the SafeDisc Performance Issues, Crash.

So, the games are old, but the system of having a dongle to play - e v e r y - f u c k i n g - g a m e - I - o w n has not changed.
GIVE ME a "#&"... Let me AUTHENTICATE the CD ONLINE, GIVE ME a "LICENSE KEY", let me put it as a file. Have the game check that file and not require the CD. If they ABSOLUTELY have to check something, I mean.

Even better: Follow the Stardock model of not fucking over your Customers.

Reply #22 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I agree that switching cd:s isn't fun and that the StarDock way (easy to pirate, hard to get updates) is great, but even those updates aren't that hard to get for non-legitimate buyers it seems

That "license key" thing also seems like a good idea, but it has been cracked in every iteration so far.

And it seems copyprotection does help according to Warlords V producer Steve Fawkner.
Link

Quite sad really
Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
instanst: I agree that switching cd:s isn't fun and that the StarDock way (easy to pirate, hard to get updates) is great, but even those updates aren't that hard to get for non-legitimate buyers it seems

That "license key" thing also seems like a good idea, but it has been cracked in every iteration so far.

And it seems copyprotection does help according to Warlords V producer Steve Fawkner.
Link

Quite sad really
Reply #24 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Campaigner:

Not really.

Mr. Fawkner seems to be saying that he released his first games with no CP, and when he released the sequels with CP they sold 3-5 times as much.

*However*, GalCiv1 was released with no CP (on the game itself, anyway), and GalCiv2, also released with no CP on the game itself, has already sold something like 3 times as much and still going.

Obviously there's other factors at work here. I.E. it's apparently *not* the addition of CP that increased sales, since GC2 didn't add CP, yet is also selling better than its predecessor.

Peace & Luv, Liz
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
@Jeysie: I think they would earn more by removing CP on games, as its only a nuisance to those who purchase the "licensed" product. And it does'nt actually "PROTECT" against anything.
But they are honest and they say that the objective is to Ensure high sales on launch date, before the "pirates" (Not like those who recently attacked US Navy Ships outside Somalia)
If the objective is to delay launch date piracy, once the game has been out for 2 weeks, they should release a patch that removed it, since their "objectives" have obviously been met.
If not, they are lying sons of birches and deserve to be keel-hauled by real pirates.

@Campaigner: Regarding the license key, it was just a suggestion for "If they really have to do something to feel secure"..

Regading feeling secure, I found a nice article on the Starforce web page regarding Starforce v4.x.. Which I tried to find back to, but could not.
The interesting comment came at the end.. "With starforce 4.0 our customers can once again FEEL secure" (the original text might have been somewhat different, except for the keyword feel). So they are at least honest there. Starforce is not about making your product more secure vs copyright infringement, its about making you FEEL more secure.