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Implementing feedback

Implementing feedback

Flood gates: activated

A friend of mine at a big game studio once told me to be wary of giving users the impression that your design is open to heavy modification by user feedback.

Because in the end, you'll never satisfy everyone and it'll put people in the mode of thinking about game flaws that they might not have given much thought of otherwise -- and then suddenly those flaws bug them.

It akin to peer reviews in offices. For awhile, it was popular to have peers review each other. But then it was discovered that this was not such a good idea because it required people to start thinking critically of people in ways they may never had to otherwise.  And then, when they were done, they were much more aware of the flaws of their coworker.  Today, peer reviews are much more rare.

So I talked previously about putting in player suggestions. And what it boils down to is that each of us has our own idea on how games should be done.

For instance, I traditionally come from the camp who play games intuitively. I don't like having every number spelled out.  I was, for instance, against letting users see the tech tree.  Not even in a manual.

But as a game deveoper -- someone making games for other people -- I have to take other people's requests and wants seriously.  And so over time I've slowly changed to having mechanics more ane more transparent. Tech tree posters, tech tree in the game, morale info displayed, and so forth.

That doesn't mean that I think I was wrong though. I know I'm not alone. I may be in the minority to be sure but I'm not alone.  What gets me is when people try to argue that their preference is the "correct" preference. 

As someone form the intuitive camp, I want my game mechanics to work intuitively and feel like they make sense. But as I get older, I'm becoming more engrossed in the board game style of game design where every number has backing and is easily understood.

Galactic Civilizations II is kind of a half-way point between the two.  It still has underlying complexity in things like how tax revenue is calculated and how civilization bonuses are applied but it's much more straight forward than the original was.  And during the course of doing updates, I'll try to implement changes that bug others and admittedly bug me. 

But I don't agree that game mechanics should be necessarily transparent. But I do understand that many people want all the numbers laid out before them and can respect that.  All I can do as a game developer is try to make all camps as satisifed as we can.

To summarize what I've read:

There's 4 camps:

1) The board gamers (grognards). They want every number, every detail spelled out. There should be a way to click on anything and find out precisely how it came from. The cleaner and simpler the mechanics, the better.

Ex: 1 unit of populatoin should produce 1 unit of wealth. If I mouse over my income, it would display this information.

2) The intuists. These are the people who want the game to be more like a simulator. The more complex, the more realistic. They don't want the numbers spelled out because they want to use their intuition to lead the way. They considering learning how the relations work as part of the fun.

Ex: 10 billion people are made up of many different socio-economic classes of people, as the population increases, the wealth collected should increase at a sub-exponential rate.

3) The Realists.  These are the people who simply want a tweak here or there or a tooltip here or there or maybe just a clarification.

4) The armchair game developers. These are the people who really could make a much better game if only they had the money and developers to convey their genius onto the screen. To prove their genius, they'll use terms like "broken" or "unusable" to describe anything that they consider non-idea.

Group #4 won't ever be satisfied. It's not like there's a scenario where we'd put out some update that totally guts the economic system.

Group #3 will likely be largely satisfied by v1.1 since social production won't be "Wasted" and we'll likely put in additional tooltips.

Group #2 is going to be unhappy that social production is going to transferred to military production which is totally unrealistic. Shouldn't the economy have waste? After all, in the real world it's a fact of life.  A business, like Stardock, has to plan its resources accordingly. If we bring in too many employees, then we don't have enough for them to do and waste money on salaries.  If we don't bring in enough, we don't spend enough and the government gets that money in taxes.

But things like social spending drives some people nuts and so it's a matter of guessing whether changing a feature  akes more people happy than unhappy.

Group #1 would consider the change to remove social waste as "obvious" because such micro management wouldn't be in a board game. 

That group also was probably driven nuts by Warcraft 3 which had all kinds of fuzzy math in how battles were handled. 

This group could can probably be generally satisfied with simply more tooltips or some sort of analysis on how money is done.

For instance, tax income is non-linear.  It's your population taken to something like the .80 power.  There's a lot of exponential relations in the game.  What other games will often do is cap it or take out any mechanics that get near a race condition.

v1.1 will probably be the point where we start to reach diminishing returns.

84,324 views 44 replies
Reply #26 Top
I like intuitive games but there is one major problem with them. The developer and the gamer more often than not have different views on what is intuitive and what is not. That is why I would put myself in either the first or the third group. A little bit of information on how things work or at least the result of your actions will help more people that it will bother.
Reply #27 Top

Haasen,


Thanks

Reply #28 Top
Add my voice to Pode 697's call for transparent output. I don't know what group that put's me in.

Ultimately, people who want an intuitive system can get what they want simply by ignoring the dev's explanations of how the system works. But if the dev's decline to explain how the system works, then only the intuitives get what they want, while players who want the game mechanics don't. Providing the info disadvantages nobody, while providing an advantage to those who want it. Therefore there is no good reason to withold the information.

In some games, the rate of intuitive feedback is frequent, allowing the player to learn the game entirely through the game's interface without needing to know how the game calculates under the hood. But in a game as large and complex as GalCiv2, you could play many games without understanding why you were losing, how you could be optimizing your strategy, etc. The essence of TBS games is the deliberative nature of the experience, but insufficient (or erroneous) documentation flies in the face of this essential truth.

Let me also say that it's easy enogh for the developer to claim he likes an intuitive system when in fact he already knows how the engine works! LOL!!! But the players, who didn't design the system, can reap the "intuitive" rewards of their ignorance. No statement underlines the subtle arrogance of the design team more than this. Luckily, the excellent institutional instincts of Stardock (to upgrade frequently in the face of gamer suggestions, and communicate their honest impressions and reasoning) go a long way towards making up for this.

Ultimately, my main gripe is that what documentation SD has provided is frequently inaccurate (examples: combat rolls listed as 1-n when it seems like they are 0-n, in game bonuses not clarified when they come up, racial bonuses unclear or inaccurate, and the list goes on and on), and SD declines to issue corrections or clarifications (kudos of course for those instances when they have provided them). I would prefer SD not issue documentation at all rather than incorrect docs. The statements by Frogboy reveal that documentation was likely given short shrift, as he would actually preferred to leave players entirely in the dark! This sort of attitude can kill the enjoyment of the game for a large proportion of potential customers, who like the product but do not share the institutional prejudices of the designer towards obfuscation. It is a lesson I hope the upcoming updates prove that he is learning.

Reply #29 Top
I'm part of Group #4 but then I'm not. I am an 'armchair developer', but also one who has actually been involved to a limited degree in actual development of actually successfully marketed games. But I actually only use terms like broken and unusable to describe things that are actually, in fact, broken and/or unusable. I do have to agree that transparency is a must in this kind of game. The key is to make the same information available to both the player and the AI. From what I see this is the best game yet at doing that to the AI, no need to short shrift the player by hiding information.
Reply #30 Top
I agree with the post about transparent output.

I don't care how the sausage was made, but I'd like to know if it'll taste good or bad!

The change I'm most looking forward to is the colour coding for paid/bonus/free production. So I can how much of my production is because of the starbase/capital/race bonus.

Some tool tip indication of how much cash I'm getting from a bank/trade center would be cool too.
Reply #31 Top
Hey, there's still social waste according to the change log, from an economics perspective. Since excess social production isn't boosted by the bonuses to social or military production when it is moved over to military production, you are using your resources less efficiently than you could. That's waste. At least that is how it works according to the change log.

As for taxes, it seems to me that, if anything, the bigger the population (to a point), the more taxes per person you are probably going to get, if I was going to think of things intuitively. I am not sure what the real-world situation is though. Is it true that if you have a country and double its population (and the larger pop is divided similarly socio-economically--just more people, not different people), then you get less taxes from them? I'd think the more people would allow for larger industries and you'd get some economies of scale going. Of course, not everything has economies of scale (which don't scale endlessly themselves), so maybe it would balance out or result in a less than linear growth. I guess I am just curious as to the thought process of the design crew on taxes. Especially since the new system seems to the the SQUARE ROOT of the population, which is massive, massive diminishing returns (doubling the pop doesn't even increase taxes by 50%!). Given how taxes are linked to happiness and happiness to population, it is possible you might accidently stumble into a game where making farms is crazy, since you might be better off having a smaller population that is happier with more +econ buildings. That doesn't seem desireable to me.

Heh, the tax system is perhaps my pet peeve after twiddling around trying to get a feel for how it works (using numbers, which I usually don't need to do). I hope you don't think I am one of those awful 4s. (realistically, speaking of course, this is a game, so the tax system doesn't need to mimic real life, but it does seem very non-intuitive--at least how I intuit, which is that doubling the pop should "roughly" double the tax income, assuming you are not massively overpopulated).
Reply #32 Top
@ Drachasor

The tax system is for the beta only, Brad already said he has other ideas. It is a beta designed specifically to test things like these. Most likely, it will change back to the way it was or something more linear. As for social to military as waste. No it's not. It's waste when you have to spend money in social when it doesn't do anything. Just be happy that now when you don't have to build anything, all that extra production sitting in social does something. Sure, your social bonus doesn't carry over, but that's because you're not making social projects. This is definitely not 'waste'.


As for the rest of the posts,

I do agree that some feedback on how much you get when you build something would be nice, but frankly, I just plop them down pretty much instinctively anyways, so it probably won't help me too much. I'm not so much in the 'intuitive' camp, I'm just familiar enough with how the game works, so I can easily tell what would do what. Of course, adding this result-feedback can only help people who just start out learning the game, so I don't see why not.

As for the reason why the game documentation is inaccurate. You have to realize that game manuals are generally made long before the game even goes 'gold'. That is because it actually takes quite a bit of time to put it all together. You need charts, and graphs and pictures along with people who writes the stuff and put it together. If you can't concieve this, think of it as one of those term papers you get half a year to do, it's basically like that. But if you wait until the last minute when everything is finalized and ready, you end up delaying the game because of the manual (and you know people will be screaming "just release the game, we don't read the manual anyways!"). As such, it is nearly impossible to keep accurate information in the game manual, because of last minute testing and changes before the product goes out. Game Manuals have always been terribly inaccurate for most PC games (console games are more static, so it's better), but with a game like GC2 that have recieve so much work and updates, this is especially true. Personally, I prefer the dev team to update and fix their game as they need, rather than not do it simply because the manual said it was otherwise. If you are looking for accurate information, the only thing I can tell you is to look through fan-sites or the GalCiv2 wiki. The information there is pretty accurate, perhaps more indepth than you would care for.
Reply #33 Top
Nasa doesnt build more space shuttles when our construction industry slows down...


No, but the U.S. build more weapons when the industry slows down. Which is Military spending..


Anyway, I feel that I am split between the #2-3-4. 4, because I often come up with some crazy idea about new system in the game (cycled trade routes, and idea dead in the water as I remember, or "same time" turns option), but it doesn't mean that I criticized GalCiv2. It's just that, since I am a realist (part #3), I would some some more option to turn:

- The closest thing I have to my "dream game" (GalCiv 2)
into
- My dream game (Same as GalCiv 2, but with even more realist options. A game I could play and forgetting that I'm just playing a game. I could loose myself into thinking that I am really a galactic overlord. And in the real world, troops move at the same time, and a trade routes, when made between 2 planets, gain more money if it opens a franchise on another planet it pass close)

So that's from my #4-#3. But I still LOVE you game, Stardock, and LOVE everything you do about it. But, come on, you worked on this game for about.. what? 5 years? I bet that when we'll hit 2015, GalCiv 4 will be the Best Game Ever, our civilisation will crumble and die because everybody plays it

and #2.. well, it's just that when I play a simulation, I am not playing a board game. I play against a computer, and if we can compute a billion operations/seconds, then let's create a game that uses that capacity, and forget the "simple systems" for the sake of advancement!

And to conclude:

GO STARDOCK! YOU RULE!!
Reply #34 Top
For instance, I traditionally come from the camp who play games intuitively. I don't like having every number spelled out. I was, for instance, against letting users see the tech tree. Not even in a manual.

There's nothing wrong with having a hidden but intuitive tech tree. The problem different people have different intuition. More complex tech trees are notorious for this (Divine Right requires Monotheism? Why can't *multiple* gods say I should be King?), but it's kind of omnipresent in all aspects, disagreements on military/social production being a major example for this game. You need to at least give an idea of what's going on behind the scenes or you'll get complaints about something being "unintuitive"/"unrealistic" without the complainer seeing where you're coming from or why things are the way they are.

1) The board gamers (grognards). They want every number, every detail spelled out. There should be a way to click on anything and find out precisely how it came from. The cleaner and simpler the mechanics, the better.
[...]
2) The intuists. These are the people who want the game to be more like a simulator. The more complex, the more realistic. They don't want the numbers spelled out because they want to use their intuition to lead the way. They considering learning how the relations work as part of the fun.

Between the two, I'd count myself as a nice amount of both - I like a realistic game where I know what does what just by the description, but the mechanics of games always intrigue me (I've bought several wargames just for the rules - good luck finding anyone to play any game with hexes in the middle of Wisconsin ). I'd think you'd kind of need that to get any useful advice though - someone who has an idea of (and cares about) what's going on behind the scenes, but also wants everything to make sense if you just watch without seeing any numbers fly by. I've always liked simulations (including most realistic strategy games) for that kind of "simple complexity" where you could get what was going on without knowing what was going on.
(Relating to grognards and intuitivity, ask any WW2 wargamer about armor overruns/exploitation and the increased movement they provide. Maybe they'll remember their early wargamer days and understand you trying to make things intuitive. )

...ok, blah over.


[EDIT: I'm still not used to the formatting here. Capital I, *CAPITAL* I!]
Reply #35 Top
(Divine Right requires Monotheism? Why can't *multiple* gods say I should be King?),



True, Egyptians governed because their leader was the descendant of a God.

However, that could lead to some frustrating experiences. Because, if you pushed the more primitive social techology around the Polysteism, you could eventually reach "Divine Right", version multiple-Gods. But if you ever want to switch to Monotheism, you would loose ALL benefits the polyteism-techs gave you.

That would result in either 2 situations:
- Players would not switch to Polytheism toward Monotheism
- Players would not research very far the Polytheism tech tree, in order to reach Monotheism ASAP.

I bet most of them would choose options 2, but it would not reflect reality. It is not logic for a society to rush toward monotheism.
Reply #36 Top
You have to realize that game manuals are generally made long before the game even goes 'gold'. That is because it actually takes quite a bit of time to put it all together. You need charts, and graphs and pictures along with people who writes the stuff and put it together. If you can't concieve this, think of it as one of those term papers you get half a year to do, it's basically like that. But if you wait until the last minute when everything is finalized and ready, you end up delaying the game because of the manual (and you know people will be screaming "just release the game, we don't read the manual anyways!").


Bah. Over the course of perhaps 10 hours, I was able to make this: Link.

It's not a true instruction manual, but it is a human readable form of exactly what the game sees. Once 1.1 goes fully live, I can run my batch process once again, and within a minute, I have a new copy of these HTML pages that contains 100% of the information that would be of value.

I could do, given another 10-12 hours of work on it, is build a system that could convert the game modable information into a large .pdf. Or, turn it into a linked SVG tree, thus creating a true tech-tree that can be generated any time the tech tree is changed.

My point is that there are ways of making your documentation that don't take hours or days or weeks to update. Charts, tables, etc, can all be generated dynamically from the actual .XML that the game reads. The on-disc manual can be accurate up to the minute on changes in code (requiring either that there is a system for extracting these changes into an XML file, or that the coder who made the changes properly update the documentation for it), if you create a system that makes this possible. The StarDock guys did not. That's their fault for not prioritizing it.

it's just that when I play a simulation


Ahh, but is GalCiv2 a simulation or a game? Because these are diametrically opposed constructs. Adding elements that a simulationist player appreciates means greating play that the gamist player cannot appreciate. The very least that the gamist player wants is to know the exact nature of what his choices will bring. A simulationist player wants a simulation of something (even if it isn't a real-world thing). And if it makes sense for the simulation to hide the exact results of an action to the player, then so be it.
Reply #37 Top
True, Egyptians governed because their leader was the descendant of a God.
However, that could lead to some frustrating experiences...

Thus "intuition" is not enough, my point exactly. In order to have intuition be the sole basis of a certain aspect it has to be so simple that no-one could realistically assume anything else to be the case. It essentially has to be devoid of life or any complexity, which would probably ruin the game.
Ahh, but is GalCiv2 a simulation or a game? Because these are diametrically opposed constructs.

Not necessarily. I didn't mean a Simcity-style, Aircraft, or whatever simulator (I don't play those much at all really). I mean games that try to have an air of plausibility about them - Victoria or Europa Universallis as opposed to Risk or Chess. All four are games, three of them good ones (I hate risk ), but it's hard to get into a game of Chess in the same way you can get into a "plausible" game - the Bishops, Knights, Pawns, etc don't really represent anything other than... well, a playing piece within a game. An armor unit in a World War II game could represent Paton's Third Army; a factory in Hearts of Iron could represent a variety of factors that lead to the production of war supplies (such as the actual factories, people to work in them, the infrastructure to supply them, etc); and a single square of land on a planet in Galactic Civilizations doesn't necessarily mean that every single bit of that square is a factory or that every single factory is condensed on that part of the planet. Granted a variety of liberties were taken to make it a game, but the concept started as a story ([http://forums.societygame.com/?ForumID=164&AID=100828]), not a variation of Chinese Checkers that eventually evolved into this.
You'll never hear someone complain about how the Rook is overpowered compared to what it should be since it doesn't really represent much of anything - game balance is all that matters. It's a little more delecate in these kinds of games since making sense matters just as much as having a fun game, but I enjoy the posibility for intuition to apply, the "feel" of controling an event, and the mechanics used to represent it. I guess the first is the simpleton in me, the second the dramatic, and the last the nerd.


EDIT: *Still* getting used to the formatting on these forums.
Reply #38 Top
My point is that there are ways of making your documentation that don't take hours or days or weeks to update. Charts, tables, etc, can all be generated dynamically from the actual .XML that the game reads. The on-disc manual can be accurate up to the minute on changes in code (requiring either that there is a system for extracting these changes into an XML file, or that the coder who made the changes properly update the documentation for it), if you create a system that makes this possible. The StarDock guys did not. That's their fault for not prioritizing it.


No offense to your work, it's a nice thing you pulled off with the xml, but if you consider THAT a manual, then you have some serious misunderstanding. A manual is something that teaches people the basics of the game, people who doesn't even realize how to install it in the worse case scenario. It is a step by step guide though screens, and shows a player how to do something, everything, kind of like the video tutorials in the game, except in text. That's where the real work come in, explaining the game in the most simplistic manner you can imagine. That, is a manual, if you are just looking for a list of "stuff" in the game, you buy a strategy guide, with pages and pages of info. No one realistically look at that stuff, at least not me, the only reason *I* buy strategy guides is for the art. What you've put together doesn't mean much, it's 'neat' but I can see all that right in the game myself, so why bother going through that when I can just play the game?

That having said, I *did* compare it to a term paper that you have to pull all the research together. The problem isn't that the charts are inaccurate, hell like I said, you can see it right in the game, so these chart doesn't even matter. What matters to people is how the game works, and there's no XML charts for that. They are hidden rules like how weapon and defenses work, the roll system, tips and tricks that takes them ages to learn after play testing their own game only to be thrown out the window with a tweak. These kind of changes just can't be 'parced' and updated so easily. Worse, you have to keep in mind that realistically speaking, manuals aren't meant to be .pdf files, they are meant for print. So it is very traditional for them to be static objects that never changes. Any gamer knows this, and gets used to it. To ask them to make parcers, and programs to update their pdf with every update is like asking them to send you a new manual every update. IMO, the team have done an excellent job 'documenting' their changes, how else would GC2 fan sites/wiki be so accurate? It's just a matter of where you look.
Reply #39 Top
I belong to group number 3 more or less
I like to see why things happens and not have to experiment everything before I get a hand at how it works and what's the best way to become powerful enough to beat them all
Reply #40 Top
but it's hard to get into a game of Chess in the same way you can get into a "plausible" game[/qutoe]

No, it's hard for you to get into it. You want the aspect of realism. A gamist approaches the game for what it is, and doesn't ask questions about why (unless he's analysing the game's mechanics) something is the way that it is in the game.

if you consider THAT a manual


Wow, talk about serious overreactions. I specifically said, "It's not a true instruction manual," thus making the rest of your tirade pointless.

To ask them to make parcers, and programs to update their pdf with every update is like asking them to send you a new manual every update.


They're the ones who insist on sending me a new game; remember, this whole updating-of-content thing is their idea. It seems only fair that they provide a new manual.
Reply #41 Top
They're the ones who insist on sending me a new game; remember, this whole updating-of-content thing is their idea. It seems only fair that they provide a new manual.


I believe the entire thing is optional. They aren't streaming it to you by force, you are the one who decided on downloading it because, "ooh, that's so cool, I want it". And to call my "tirade" pointless because I used "THAT", then it clearly means you didn't bother reading what I wrote. So if 2 little paragraph is too much for you, I'll "shorten" it. The whole point was that they document their changes very well, all you have to do is READ the damn history.txt file. It's all there. They don't need to come up with some quirky program to go around updating manuals, when they can be doing something better. Seriously, it's people like you who don't bother reading this stuff that no one bothers doing a good job in the manual in the first place.
Reply #42 Top

As a Developer in learning, I say go with your gut.

Reply #43 Top

For those of you just joining us, welcome to a thread from nearly two years ago.

Reply #44 Top

Quoting Uranium, reply 18
For those of you just joining us, welcome to a thread from nearly three years ago.