Will Spanish cowardice cost lives?

Here's an interesting article on the matter:

http://www.coldfury.com/Sasha/archives/004682.html#004682

Here are some others I found courtesy of http://denbeste.nu

http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/Comment/Mar04/index205.shtml

http://www.itworked.org/

 

I think it is worse than cowardice. This sentiment isn't anything new. The Spanish majority have hated the Iraqi war since the beginning, but they didn't get their way. Now, in spite of the fact that the war is over, and in spite of the fact that the Iraqi people need support and protection, they are pulling out their troops to make a statement. All the humanitarian bullshit was just excuses not to side with the US. They never cared about the Iraqi people, or they would stay and provide protection with their token military presence. It isn't cowardice, it is apathy, spite.

Has Spain helped the Kerry Campaign ?
Will Al queda put a democrat in the White House ?

I hope the American public can sustain another attack without adopting the protectionist/cowardice policy of the Europeans.

Not the same possibility here. Kerry and Bush will maintain the war on terror.  There is no election scenario that involves the US pulling its troops out. Bombing the US would likely result in a more aggressive US position.

But you dont care what europe thinks.
So why the upset when we act in our best (short-term) intrest?
Let the Murderers focus on making America bleed and i can live out my life in
tranquility. You dont care what i think so why should i do anything you whant?
Its simple school-yard politics. And America i curently acting like the bigboy bully.

You whant to bleed alone? fine. You dont? maybe you should care what youre ally thinks.

The United States doesn't intentionally try to do things that will harm innocents in Europe.

But it's not just that, it's about one's national character. The US could have done the same thing on 9/11. Could have meekly backed off and let the French or Germans or other westerners with overt presences in the middle east by the next target. But we didn't because we don't cave in to bullies.

The US a bully? We're not the ones murdering innocent civilians en masse in an effort to cow them to our point of view. If we were a bully, the US would simply start nuking any European city that got out of line. That's a bully. That's what Al Qaeda would do if they had the means. But they don't. They don't mainly because of the work of the US and UK to prevent Al Qaeda from having that means.

It's a pity you aren't seemingly capable of coming to the obvious rational conclusion: Al Qaeda is the bully. THEY are the ones running around exterminating innocents. The US just happened to be one of the many countries that has figured out that the only way you stop bullies is to stand up to them.  The Spanish, apparently, think that the way to stop bullies is to suck up to them.

When the US starts bombing European nations that don't do what we want, then you can call us bullies.

I agree with Brad. If we were as evil as some think then we would be paying about $0.20 a gallon for gas because we would own the Iraqi oil fields.

I dont disagree with the result. The world is a better place without Sadam and all Al Qaeda should be shoot.
But, is making youre allys upset the right way to go about things? The same allys that whent to war when
mr Bush Senior whent to war with iraq.

And the CIA is a very good tool, they help USSR out of afganistan. Could the not have assisted a revolt in iraq?

I am not sure what point you're trying to make in that last post.

The CIA didn't help the USSR in Afghanistan. The USA supplied stinger missiles to the resistance which drove the USSR out. But that only worked because the USSR was a foreign invader. It is a lot easier to help someone fight off a foreign invasion force than it is to overthrow a stable government -- particularly one that is ruled by fear and oppression as was the case in Iraq.

Even with the US's help, Iraq is having a hard time putting together a government now. There was no coherent resistance in Iraq.

A lot of anti european here...

Spanish didn't react like US after 3/11, well, they have been suffering from ETA terrorists from quiet a long time now, You're very insulting against them and their 15 years of loss by ETA by calling them coward.

Part of their reactions can be attributed to the opposition against the war ,but as OG san pointed in another post here. In spite of their government, spanish were, in their great majority, against the war but would have still reelected Aznar before the attack. They change their mind probably due to the way the PP handled the crisis ,by trying to convince the public of ETA involvment in spite of growing evidences muslim fundamentalism. Thousands have been demonstrating for the truth to be known, sometime leading to riot and police intervention.

You can regret that such a small number of terrorists, can kill that much and have so much influence of a democracy.
If you remind US before 9/11 and do the comparison with Bush, you could see that Al quaida did influence american policy too...

Link

agree with Brad. If we were as evil as some think then we would be paying about $0.20 a gallon for gas because we would own the Iraqi oil fields.

If I were a conspiracy theorist, which I am not, I could argue that Bush has arranged for private oil companies (with which he would, of course, be associated) to assume control of the Iraqi oil, in which case they would control even more of the world's supply, in which case they could collude to drive the prices even higher.

If you remind US before 9/11 and do the comparison with Bush, you could see that Al quaida did influence american policy too...

End of quote

Of course they did by drawing military attention. And if they attack again I would bet the USA would show even more resolve.

If I were a conspiracy theorist, which I am not, I could argue that Bush has arranged for private oil companies (with which he would, of course, be associated) to assume control of the Iraqi oil, in which case they would control even more of the world's supply, in which case they could collude to drive the prices even higher.

End of quote

Well now that you mention it, you see there is this group called the illuminati that controls the world, and they......

Well not so stable. http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/H/HusseinS.html
Both the Kurdish people and the Shiite, could have had som help. But i see youre point.
Could then a coherent resistance not have been build up ?

We know that what mr. Blair said about WMD is a lie. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1113536,00.html
So why the rush to go to war? Why not take it a bit slower and have all the allys on board. That way
it might have been a more coherent effort from all of the western world.

Well now that you mention it, you see there is this group called the illuminati that controls the world

Hahaha, yes, and they all pass through the Skull and Bones Society first

The US a bully? We're not the ones murdering innocent civilians en masse in an effort to cow them to our point of view.

Indeed. I would forgo my US citizenship if that was the case.

If the Spanish did elect the Socialists because of wanting the truth and not because of the terrorists attack, then I could respect that, but changing parties because of the attacks would be cowardly on a scale that only the French can beat.

You are a victim of the media.
Far from being a hypocrite, I am a victim as well. Daily.
If you take the spin from media from sources such as the Washington Post, CNN, New York Times, USA Today, etc, you are looking at the perspective of the United States and her allies.
Spain was NEVER even close to supporting the United States. Her government ceded limited resources in order to retain favorable economic status with us. A small sacrifice, but one that never sat well with the populace.

The U.S. put the spin on Spain, so you would be antagonized and buy the paper or watch the television program.

Before we descend into another "U.S. vs. The World" debate, just a couple of comments:
First, pretty lame calling Spain a nation of cowards. It's that sort of insulting arrogance that gives so many a negative impression of the U.S. and it's citizens, and that same attitude from our leaders here in the U.S. has cost us alot of support that we could have had.
Second, is there a assumption being made that the election results in Spain were heavily influenced by the recent attack? I find that a bit of a stretch, though I am not up all the info from the election/opinion polls/etc. Is there any evidence showing a sudden "party switch" due to the attack? I find it more likely that the election would have turned out that way anyway, and now that the new administration has said it plans to bring their troops home (which I again guess it would have anyway, being the Socialist party), many Americans are pointing fingers at Spain and crying "traitor".
I think Spain is going the way it is not as a reaction to the terror attack against them but because what little "coalition" there was to begin with was fragile at best, thanks to the Bush administrations terrible foreign policy skills. Most if not all of the U.S. allies in the Iraq situation face highly negative public opinion in their countries---that is their people speaking (and now Spain's government changing because of it)---and it should be no surprise to the U.S. that they are not fully "on board" with our program.

I don't know if they are cowardly. I do know that the main premise for being against the ousting of Saddam Hussein was supposed concern for the people of Iraq. Now that Saddam is gone and they have the ability to rebuild their country, Spain wants to pull out to make a statement, abaondoning the Iraqis.

The US invaded, and now is spending billions of dollars and the lives of their personel to provide stability for the Iraqi people. We could have simply bombed them into oblivion and left. Spain joined in the initial overthrow, but now they back out to appease EU cronies.

At least the US is trying to keep its commitment to the Iraqi people. The Spanish have an election and discard their responsibility. All to make a point about pacifism? Human rights? Cowardly or hypocritical?

The Spanish, as a collective, have expressed their cowardice at the ballot box.

The first action of their new leaders does nothing except harm innocent Iraqi people and embolden the very terrorists who attacked them. Bullies prey on the weak. Spain can look forward now to more attacks I fear.

How long would it take the average American to find Spain on a world map? For that matter... what about the UK? Dont forget that European countries are much easier targets for Al Qaeda to get to than the USA - purely on geographical level. Its easy to get so pis*ed off with Spain for doing what most other countries in the world think we should have done a long time ago, when you are half way around the world from middle eastern hot-spots. Dont forget that Spain, the UK and many other European countries have been dealing with terrorism for many years now, and its something which is reletively new to the United states.

Something which I find difficult to understand, is the term "War on terror". How can you declare war on something which isnt actually anything? I if felt the need (and lets face it, these people really feel the need) to do something drastic, I could probably do it. Nothing on the scale of 9/11 but I could probably set fire to a building, or find out how to build a bomb... or what-ever. Its just very difficult to track such a hidden few down. The English have never been able to find the IRA's weapons, and its only really Ireland they needed to look in!

You say the war is over, but its not over! More coalition soldiers are killed every day. You say that the USA doesnt murder innocent civilians, but they do. Many many hundreds of completely and totally innocent civilians, like you and me, have been killed over the past 2 years by American weapons. Just because it was accidental, it doesnt mean its not murder in many families minds. These actions upset people. Some countries, dont want to be associated with such a "shoot-first ask question later" government, which is what America seems to be.

Cowardice is not the right word to use at all. Were the Americans cowards for pulling out of Vietnam? Of course not... They just realised they were not doing things the right way.

I think we all have to admit that this entire situation has not been dealt with in the best way. A lot of what has happened since 9/11 has gone exactly as Osama planned. The world is becoming more and more divided, and people, particularly Americans, just dont see it happening.

It is worth noting that Spain have said their troops WOULD stay under a UN led peace keeping force. Just not a US one.

The Spanish are not cowards. It's time people look at their point of view. The population were against a US led Iraq war. The population are for a war on terror though. Just separate the two issues.

I do agree that backing out on a commitment is bad, but it's not cowardice.
No a real coward would have kept the troops there against the wishes of the population for fear of the US economic backlash. I'm surprised no one has yet suggested boycotting Spanish products. That's usually the US response when they don't agree with another country using it's soveign right of self determination.

Paul.

Their population switched supporting the incumbant who supported the US to the challenger who is against the US after being attacked.

In other words, their population changed their collective position after faced with an attack to a position favored by the ones who attacked them.

That's not cowardice?