Economy Questions

According to the manual, your maxium spending is based on your maximum industrial capacity but I confused over how research ties into this.

My starting planet has a capital project with 24 mp and 24 tp. When I set the spending rate to 100% it costs me 24 bc, which i assume is directly tied to the 24mp. Depending on the proportion spit between military, social and research, the colony then devotes an amount to each of those areas. Presumably the only restriction on social and military is the mp of the colony. However, what confuses me is how tp is tied into this.

The manual states "Research works similar to Social and Military Production. The
number of flasks that can be produced is limited by the colony’s
Technology Points. For instance, a Research Center provides
a colony with 12 tp. If Spending Distribution is set to 100%
research, then it will produce 12 flasks. If your Spending
Distribution is set to 50% research, then it will only produce 6
flasks. Each flask represents one technology point."

From this it appear that the amount spent on tp is dependent on the research capacity of the planet, not its industrial capacity as stated earlier in the manual. So if a planet has 50 tp but only 20 mp and reseaerch spending is set to 100% research, how many tp do I get? 20, which is the maximum manufacturing, or 50, which is the maximum research?

Confused

Steve
14,001 views 23 replies
Reply #2 Top
It costs 50.
Let me explain what I know and then aska few questions myself at the end.

Here's how the equations work:

Your spend rate for either military, social, or research is determined by the following equation:

Max Capacity x Total Spend Rate x Spend Distribution

So if you're set to 100% spend rate, and you have research set to 100% in the distribution, the equation is:

50 tp capacity x 1.0 x 1.0 = 50 bc

Here's what would happen if you kept your spend rate at 100% but moved the distribution around (you'll see the 20 mp production capacity come into play here) Let's say you set the distribution to the following.
Military: 33%, Social: 33%, Tech: 34%:

You'd spend
Military: 20 mp capacity x 1.0 x 0.33 = 6.6 bc
Social: 20 mp capacity x 1.0 x 0.33 = 6.6 bc
Tech: 50 mp capacity x 1.0 x 0.34 = 17 bc

Now I think the game rounds down, someone can check that. But you're going to have something close to:

Total Spend: 6 + 6 + 17 = 29 bc

Note that this is a lot lower than our previous 50 bc spend to generate the 50 tp.

So when you move those distribution sliders around, you are NOT divvying up a static amount of spend. You're deciding how much of various capacities you want to use. The total amount of money you spend will change when you move those sliders around. Hope that makes sense.


Now for my question

I'm playing as terrans, I have the 20% research ability and I picked the tech party, for an additional 20%. So when I look in my abilities section of the stats screen, I see a total research benefit of 40% (as I'd expect).

I have my first colony that has:
a. the capital - 24 tp
b. a xeno lab (9 tp) built on a tile that gives +100% research

I set my total spend rate to 100%, and I set the distribution to 100% research.

When I look at my colony I see the following:

I'm spending 45 bc to produce 54 tp.

A few questions:

- How did it come up with 45? the closest I can get is the 24 from the capital plus 18 tp from the lab, assuming that the research bonus is a straight bonus to capacity and that it turned the 9 tp lab into a 18 tp one. But that only adds up to 42 tp, where are the extra 3 coming from?

- 54 divided by 45 is 1.2, or 120%. It seems like I'm only getting a 20% bonus to research? Or am I not thinking about this correctly?

Anyone have any ideas?
Cheers
Reply #3 Top
Thanks for the explanation. I think the manual is confusing the issue as it manufacturing capability doesn't seem to have any impact on research. However, it seems strange that you have to reduce research to increase production and vice versa as the two are not connected at all.

Why is your spend as a proportion of tp capacity affected by the proportion of spend on mp capacity?

Steve
Reply #4 Top
It's all very confusing indeed.

The way I try to think about it is that you only have enough workers to do ONE kind of production (military, social or research) at 100%. If you want to do more than one you have to divide them and so they can do less for each kind of production. Now, if you build a lab, for example, you are enhancing the infrastructure, so that with the same amount of workers, you can research more.
Note that it's not really tied to the planet's population, so increasing the population doesn't change anything. It's just a model to make you understand why there is an artificial limit of 100% for all three kinds of production (instead of 0-100% for each of them).

Now, about the RESEARCH BONUS:

I experienced a similar problem as Burianek. My 30% research only amounted to about 15% when looking at a planet. Same with Social Production. I had a bonus of 10% and nothing seemed to happen (I did get the 10% bonus from my planet, though, but for military *and* social).
I don't want to cry "BUG!!" immediately but I think it might be one.
Reply #5 Top
The math to Burianek 's tech spending might be like this

capital = 24 x 40% = 33.6 round down to 33
lab = 9 x 40% = 12.6 round down to 12

33+12 = 45,
lab tile give 100% of 9

so total research = 45 + 9 = 54
Reply #6 Top
The math to Burianek 's tech spending might be like this

capital = 24 x 40% = 33.6 round down to 33
lab = 9 x 40% = 12.6 round down to 12

33+12 = 45,
lab tile give 100% of 9

so total research = 45 + 9 = 54

So this means that tile bonus are free: you get benefit but aren't paying them
Reply #7 Top
Interesting idea. It didn't occur to me to round down before adding.
It would also mean that tile bonuses get no additional bonus from your racial abilities. I think it's time to do some tests.

EDIT: Nope, it doesn't seem to work that way.
Reply #8 Top
- How did it come up with 45? the closest I can get is the 24 from the capital plus 18 tp from the lab, assuming that the research bonus is a straight bonus to capacity and that it turned the 9 tp lab into a 18 tp one. But that only adds up to 42 tp, where are the extra 3 coming from?


Your spending in the planet window is the total spending. It includes the maintenance fees. It is most likely that you spend 3bc for buildings. If you have a single planet in your empire, it is easy to see in the economy window.

However, my understanding is that Phoenix explanation is correct. I would put it like this

You pay:
capital = 24mc
lab = 18mc (=9mc+100%)
maintenance = 3mc
total = 45mc

You get:
capital = 24tp+40% = 33tp
lab = 9tp+40%+100% = 21tp
total = 54tp

Is it fine now? I have checked it on social production where I had 300% benefit for factory. So you still have to pay for the the bonus, you just do not pay for that 40% of research
Reply #9 Top
Thanks for clearing it up MxM111
Reply #10 Top
No. Maintenance fees are not included, they have an extra number right below "Spending".

Another example where it fails: 100% spending, 30% on research, Research +50%, only a Civ Capital (24tp).
According to what you say, it should be:

capital 24tp+50% = 36
Spending 30%: 30% of 36 = 10.8

But what do I get? Only 8.

Now putting research on 100% should yield the 36 mentioned above. Instead I only get 32 (and spend 28 BC for it)

I tell you, this whole thing doesn't work the way it should.
Reply #11 Top
No. Maintenance fees are not included, they have an extra number right below "Spending".

Yes they are. I do not know why they included them into this number, but if you have only single planet, you can see how much money is spent on research in the same screen where you set up spending. Create a custom race, remove all bonuses (and technologies as well) and see for yourself. The number in the planet screen does include the maintenance fee.
I tell you, this whole thing doesn't work the way it should.

I know, and I found even stranger cases, when I was playing with manufacturing. Basically military manufacturing reacted one way on 10% bonus, and social reacted in a different way on 10% bonus, everything being the same! You can go to the bug forum and read my post about it. I think that application of the bonuses is bugged.
Reply #12 Top

Note: I make some rough criticisms, only because I like the game a lot.  If you dont believe me, read my love letter to SD in the last paragraph



I am NOT an advanced player but since GC1 I have been wondering why stardock had done it this way.  It makes it harder to balance the budget since you do not allocate a certain amount of cash to production.  Instead you choose a sum total percentage at which you want to drive all 3 of your industries.  Then you break down that percentage among the 3 industries.



It gets a little funny with research because maximum research capacity is determined differently from max military or social industrial capacity.  One reason for why the sliders operate on % and not on money is if your industrial and research capacities are mismatched, it would be possible to allocate more cash to one department than you'd be capable of putting to use.  For example, your industrial capacity is 500 and your research capacity is 10.  If you were to split the -money- fifty-fifty, chances are you would be allocating way more to research than it could make use of.  Then whoever designs the game would have to decide if that money should be wasted or unspent, should the player be notified and how, etc.



So that's why it works the way it does.  But i'm not totally happy about how it does work, because it makes for some improbable scenarios.  Let's say you have 500 industrial and 10 research capacity, and the main industry slider is at 100%.  If you want to go 50-50 on military and social, the reasoning works like this: "OK, we're using 250 points of industry for military and 250 for social.  We can't put any more points toward military without taking away from social because military and social draw on the same industry resource."  Makes sense.  But what if we go 50-50 between military and research?  "We're using 250 industry points for military and 5 research points.  Those other 250 industry points are sitting idle.  We cannot use them for anything.  If we want to bring those other 5 research points online, it will cost us the 250 industry points.  Maybe it's because of a manpoiwer issue, but then again if we had twice as much industry, we would still be wasting half of it."



The second scenario bugs me.  The restriction in the first scenario makes sense because the military and social APPEAR to be drawing on the same resource (industry points).  The second scenario shows that the common resource between all 3 categories is actually the PERCENT UTILIZATION of ALL INDUSTRY, which must be divided among all 3 industries.  Doesn't make sense to me. 



I do NOT claim to understand the game better than SD, but from where this n00b sits I think it would make more sense or be more intuitive if you were able to drive the research industry independently of the military/social production industries.  And bringing in some of the above questions from other posters, I think the lack of transparency as to how the figures are calculated makes it incredibly hard to understand AND debug IF there were a bug.  (My favorite analogy, building a car without a dashboard...)  Remember in MOO2 how you could click on all the hammers and see exactly how it came up with that number of hammers?  Well GC2 does NOT have to be like MOO2 but help us understand what these bonuses and stuff are really doing



What we have now is that you research a new type of factory/lab, the game automatically upgrades your facilities, and since you set production by PERCENT and not credits, the game goes on using the SAME percentage of a LARGER capacity, which costs more money, and the budget gets broken, slowly and insidiously over the course of a dozen turns while the facilities are upgraded, all because you researched the next level factory.  Shame on you, don't ever research anything again.  



I would argue that the decision of how to allocate resources depends on what resources you HAVE, and your policy of saving / deficit spending takes priority over any kind of decision like "we should spend equal amounts on these 2 categories".  GC2 does NOT allow you to manage this way because the TOTAL spending value changes as you muck with the resource allocation sliders.  I think SD has already caught onto the problem and tried to address it with the 'focus option' (which, by the way, we have no way of seeing exactly what it is doing ).  The problem in GC1 APPEARED to be that all your colonies had to be doing the same sort of production (military or social) or else your allocation was wasted if you went 70% military but only one colony was actually building ships.



For anyone who miraculously is still reading this post, I think this is how it should work:  There should be 3 sliders total instead of the 4 we currently have (overall industrial drive %, military%, social%, research%)



1. Industrial drive slider, sets a number of credits to spend instead of a % to drive the industry.  The minimum is 0 and the max is what it would cost to use all your factories at maximum.  When you build new factories and the max value goes up, or you lose production abilitiy and it goes down, the SLIDER AUTOMATICALLY MOVES so that the same number of credits are being spent until you actually make a decision to spend more/less by moving the slider.



2. Military/Social Industry allocation slider, decides how many of the credits from (1) go to military and how many go to social.  Push it all one way for all military, all the other way for all social.  Slider never moves automatically.  Of course, to make the game accessible, we always display how many credits are being spent on each category.


3.  Research slider.  Remember in my fantasy world, you can set factories AND labs to work at 100% if you have enough money.  Minimum is 0 and maximum is the cost of driving all research at 100%.  Again, this works in credits similar to (1), and again, the number does not change until the player decides to increase spending.



Put these 3 controls somewhere on the main game screen if necessary, so the player can keep up by adjusting spending as capacity is changing... shouldn't take up too much space but make it hidable if it does, e.g. the FIND button is kinda huge

2a.  If a colony does not have a military/social project, do NOT waste the money.  Dump it all into military/social if one type of project doesnt exist.  Dump it into research if neither project exists.  If research overflows, return it to the treasury.  I have no idea if money gets wasted in GC1 or GC2 (blame the UI for that ), but this SHOULD NOT happen in these games only because the game does not provide the player with a warning or a means for tracking it down and eliminating the waste.


Has the following advantages:



1.  Lets the player decide how much to spend each turn, so that you can save/spend your treasury without having the game move the budget all over the place.



2.  Removes the artificial trade-off of spending 100 credits to power 10 factories in exchange for 10 credits to power 1 lab (or vice versa).



3.  Much easier for new players and non-mathematicians to understand what the game is actually doing with the money



4.  No fear of economic upset or a dozen turns spent  rebalancing the budget when you research a new type of factory or lab (now, on the other hand, Farm upgrade technologies are actually suggested by Dread Lord espionage agents posing as scientists )



5. Fewer UI elements (always a good thing)



YES I know this would mean redesigning the game.  Not asking for that.  Just posting it here to see if anyone agrees with my way of thinking, and so SD gets a good jump on doing it my way for GC3 (kidding... sort of.)  To reiterate, SD has done a fantastic job and has set an example for all other companies to follow, hopefully GC2 will be a great success and other companies will be shamed into dropping the sleaze act and following SD's example on how you really make money in the gaming industry.  Here's hoping.

Reply #13 Top
I do not agree

I like the current system (as I understand it, still have no idea how all bonuses should be applied. But apart from bonuses I like it precisely because you have to chose what you concentrating on production or research. You can not do both at 100%. This gives you more flexibility/choices/problems to optimize.

Overall, it looks like you want to design the game in such way, that you minimise penalties if you do this or that. I am of opinion that the penalties should be large (as they right now) , e.g. you "loose" possible mp or tp if you do not build anything. Because those penalties makes the game more interesting, and the balancing act more challenging.

As for the need of constantly adjusting the slider because you are updating facilities or building a new ones, I kind of see your point. But

a) it can be solved by using bc instead of % for spending (total)
b) I actually like % better. Because usually your % is about the same through the game. You build new improvements, but you also have more taxes. I often in GC2 put spending to 100% and do not worry about spending at all. Instead I try to build only the staff that I need.
Reply #14 Top
Double post. And I can not find ways to delete the post
Reply #15 Top
Another example where it fails: 100% spending, 30% on research, Research +50%, only a Civ Capital (24tp).
According to what you say, it should be:

capital 24tp+50% = 36
Spending 30%: 30% of 36 = 10.8

But what do I get? Only 8.

Now putting research on 100% should yield the 36 mentioned above. Instead I only get 32 (and spend 28 BC for it)

I tell you, this whole thing doesn't work the way it should.


I suspect I know the reason. Your base research is 24tp. Then you have to calculate bonuses separately, rounding down each time. For example. If you have 5 separate 10% bonuses (like from government, abilities star bases and whatever), then each 10% bonus is 2.4, rounding down to 2tp. 2*5 = 10tp. So your total will be only 34. I do not know how do you get 32, because I do not know a particular composition of your bonuses.
Reply #16 Top
After writing my book above, I learned that the word on the forums is that the social production and research bonuses from racial abilities are not being applied properly. So those of you who are valiantly trying to actually calculate where in the universe those numbers are coming from have this to contend with.
Reply #17 Top
Personally I am in favor of techn0mage's idea for the control of spending. I dislike the artificial contection between research and industry. If my economy can handle (afford) it I should be able to use all of it. The only reason might be population but then again population is not take into account so that gets thrown out the window.
Reply #18 Top
How do you change the location of your civilization capital? Is there ANY way at all? Not the homeworld, the capital building (tile).
Reply #19 Top
I would have to agree with techn0mage, I really like maths... but I have spent half a day trying to workout how it all gets calculated... and it just isn't logical, I think simplicity would suffice in this case.
Reply #20 Top
Another example where it fails: 100% spending, 30% on research, Research +50%, only a Civ Capital (24tp).
According to what you say, it should be:

capital 24tp+50% = 36
Spending 30%: 30% of 36 = 10.8

But what do I get? Only 8.

Now putting research on 100% should yield the 36 mentioned above. Instead I only get 32 (and spend 28 BC for it)

I tell you, this whole thing doesn't work the way it should.


I suspect I know the reason. Your base research is 24tp. Then you have to calculate bonuses separately, rounding down each time. For example. If you have 5 separate 10% bonuses (like from government, abilities star bases and whatever), then each 10% bonus is 2.4, rounding down to 2tp. 2*5 = 10tp. So your total will be only 34. I do not know how do you get 32, because I do not know a particular composition of your bonuses.

Well, it doesn't work that way: capacity is calulated and rounded first, and after bonus are applied.
So it is:
base research = 24 * 100% * 30 % = 24 * 0.3 = 7.2 = 7
Research bonus: 1/2 is free, 1/6 is paid
free bonus: 7*50%*1/2 = 3.5 * 0.5 = 1.75 = 1
paid bonus : 0
=> total 8 research

All spending on research:
base research: 24 * 100% * 100% = 24
free research: 24 * 50% * 50% = 6
paid resaerch: 24 * 50% * 1/6 = 12/6 = 2
Total: 32 BC on research but only 26 paid. Are you sure that you have 28 BC and not 26?

Reply #21 Top
This is a very interesting discussion and helps players beging to understand the nuts-and-bolts of the economic model. But it would probably be more beneficial to extend the analysis to specific recommendations on how one should structure your economy. Is it a good idea to focus planets on either research or manufacturing? Should you build starports on almost all planets (like the AI does) or on a limited number of planets that are devoted to manufacturing? What's the best use of the various quality planets?
Reply #22 Top
I have to say, this whole system smacks of the Ork resource system in Dawn of War: needlessly complicated. techn0mage's system really does sound like the most logical approach to tackling the problem.
Reply #23 Top
I would also agree. I would much prefer an understandable and reproducable economics system where production and research are separated. This would also allow us to specialize planets where it makes sense to do so.