If you're going to link a website and use it to prove a point, it's best if you don't use a "blog site".

It's not a blog "site". It's the website of the Free Muslims Coalition. It's article by the organization detailing their position on the cartoon/violence issue.

Instead, they donate money to terrorist organizations and vote them into faux-political validity. You'll forgive me if I don't rate "statements" as being as sincere and effective as what we have seen for the last month.

Apart from Palestine, can you name any other Muslim nations that have elected terrorist governments into power in the last 10 years? I can't think of any, but admittedly I'm not as expert on the Middle East as Draginol and yourself. I think though you can acknowlege that Palestine is a special case - Arafat's party was hardly an effective governing body, being riddled with corruption and lacking in leadership. Hamas was the only other major party. Did the Palestinian voters have a choice which didn't lead downwards?

NO, they wouldn't! And why is that you ask? You must not be a Catholic or you'd know that the Catholic church teaches abstinence and NO sex outside of marriage. So now explain to me "how" you'd get aids if you follow Catholic teachings?

Yes, I have seen their "teachings". Poor kids.

Here's one example for you Mr Superstitious. You can get HIV(which si the virus) through blood transfusion. How about that?
You learn something new every day.

marcus

Boy, you "really" shouldn't talk about stuff that you obviously have NO clue on. They don't eat pork because they consider it an "unclean" animal. A pig is the "only" food animal that eats it's own feces!

I have clue Mister. This is what differs us who work after facts and not Vodoo science .
Your quote here is a perfect example of such "mumbojumbo" superstition..

Does anyone here realise that. If Religion had their way we wouldn't even be sitting here writing this? If Religions had their way
we would still be living in mud huts and eating with fingers(much like they do in areas with heavy reliance on Religion). This is the sad truth. Everywhere, where you find heavy influence of Religion, you also find nothing but poverty, general problems and violence.

And of course there wouldn't be any medicine whatsoever because we would be hoping for "abstinence" and prayers to cure our diseases (including Cancer). This is the sad truth.

This the sad and true fact about Organized Religions(I am not counting heathens and philosophies like Confusianism). It has Contributed NOTHING of worth to humankind. Nothing. Except a lot of waste of paper perhaps? Let's face it. All those paper spent on Quarans and Bibles could have been used on something useful like Math books for instance.

marcus

The one thing you didn't do is ask me for evidence for some "claim" allegedly made. "What was the name of the rabbi you spoke to?" "You would certainly remember ONE of the names if you had [spoken with a few]."

And I said. There's no way I would remember that. They were and are not may pals or friends. Just
guys I've met on various occassions.

You know. I've met Clowns too. I have no clue what their names were either. I've met hmm Surgeons. No idea
what their names were either. Your claim that "you have met a rabbi so you must know his name" is not really the most
logical you made. You made a few but this was not one of them.

Religious groups are not individuals but organisations btw. So no individual was pointed at.
I did however claim that I have more respect for the Jewish faith than the others(partially perhaps due to my talks with Rabbis). But I don't see that as an insult exactly .
And that is that about that.

marcus

Btw, some of the misunderstandings here is because some think Religion is the same as Faith.

People can have faith(as in believe in god) without being part of organized Religion. Which is what I have serious problems with.


marcus

"Does anyone here realise that. If Religion had their way we wouldn't even be sitting here writing this? If Religions had their way we would still be living in mud huts and eating with fingers(much like they do in areas with heavy reliance on Religion). This is the sad truth. Everywhere, where you find heavy influence of Religion, you also find nothing but poverty, general problems and violence."

That's why History remembers China and the Soviet Union as prosperous places with freedom and only around 100 million people slaughtered. But your Randian religion is at dogmatic odds with Socialism, isn't it? Hmm, thinking about it, there really hasn't been much that doesn't piss off the Rand drones...

Sadly, some forget that it was people from within the Catholic church that were responsible for keeping scholarship alive through the dark ages and who preserved many classical works that we wouldn't have otherwise. Much of our modern philosophy has roots in the early church. Some people can't see past their noses or remember anything before Rand, though. In the last 100 years a lot more books have been burned by atheists than churchgoers, that's for sure. But, again, our Randian will class the tyrranies of the 20th century as socialists and just as bad as religion.

"This the sad and true fact about Organized Religions(I am not counting heathens and philosophies like Confusianism). It has Contributed NOTHING of worth to humankind. Nothing. Except a lot of waste of paper perhaps? Let's face it. All those paper spent on Quarans and Bibles could have been used on something useful like Math books for instance."

Heh, anyone that could claim to have studied history, claims to be objective, and still make a statement like that would have to be deranged. I think there's been waaaaay too much time wasted here. You can't reason out what wasn't reasoned in. This is rhetoric without substance.

" I think though you can acknowlege that Palestine is a special case - Arafat's party was hardly an effective governing body, being riddled with corruption and lacking in leadership."

That's a widely held belief, and it could very well be true. I don't believe it, though. Arafat's popularity always dipped when he sat down at acted the diplomat. He was always most popular when the Israelis were threatening to exile or kill him. Once Arafat died, any hope of his organization having teeth disappeared.

Faced with what might well have become peace, the Palestinian people picked the folks they knew didn't have any qualms with killing people wholesale. Glass half-empty? Sure. Maybe an exageration, but that's how it looks to me. Time will tell which course of action keeps them popular. Dead Israelis have been the best bet so far, though.

If you're going to link a website and use it to prove a point, it's best if you don't use a "blog site". It's not a blog "site". It's the website of the Free Muslims Coalition. It's article by the organization detailing their position on the cartoon/violence issue.

Wrongo! BY "their own admission" it's a blog! This is a quote from their page:

FMC Blog

They even "tell" you it's a blog!

Yes, I have seen their "teachings". Poor kids. Here's one example for you Mr Superstitious. You can get HIV(which si the virus) through blood transfusion. How about that? You learn something new every day. marcus

Okay "smart guy" (and that's up for debate!) Explain to everyone how getting HIV from a "blood tranfusion" ties into following Catholic teachings and sex? And you "still" need a clue! You haven't shown any of us "anything" new, and I have serious doubts that you could! Have a troll cookie.

If you're going to link a website and use it to prove a point, it's best if you don't use a "blog site". It's not a blog "site". It's the website of the Free Muslims Coalition. It's article by the organization detailing their position on the cartoon/violence issue. Wrongo! BY "their own admission" it's a blog! This is a quote from their page: FMC Blog They even "tell" you it's a blog

I didn't say it wasn't a blog, I said it's not a blog site. Anyways, how exactly does that undermine the credibility of the message?

What is it precisely that you want? Press releases? A few sound bites on the news? And once you get this message that you want from Islamic leaders, what do you think it will accomplish? Will it stop bigots from impying that all muslims are terrorists and prone to violence?

Frankly, yes I do. I want Muslim leaders to be vocal about this violence. Why aren't there public protests calling for an end to it all? Where is the outcry from the Muslim community about all the horror being perpetrated in the name of their religion? Hiding on the internet? Being whispered in quiet meetings?

Look, I know a pretty decent number of Muslim people. They are wonderful, marvelous, peaceful people. And I bet the majority of Muslims are. But it is a PR game, plain and simple. I recognize that, but it is part of the game.

I am Mormon. Any time some splinter group starts behaving badly in the name of their Mormon faith the Church leaders very quickly and very vocally and publicly denounce those groups and their affiliation with the Church. They are excommunicated. There is no question the Church will not tolerate their activities. Why? Because that is part of the game, and they know how to play it.

What about all the outcry and venom spewed (from plenty of liberals as well I might add) toward the Catholic Church when it was felt their was insufficient public denouncement of the sexual abuse scandals? Church leaders were much more vocal against that then Muslim leaders have been against this violence, and yet it was still widely declared to be too little.

Oh, but wait, they are Christians. It is okay to hate them and be bigoted against them. I forgot.

So why hold Islam to a different standard? If these were Christians who were rioting because of blasphemous comics depicting Jesus Christ, with little or no action from Christian leaders, I can promise you the liberals would be having a heyday with that.

But I suppose it is much more sexy to defend Islam.

Again, I don't know a single Muslim person who condones terror and violence. They are wonderful people. But when the only public statement I have heard from any sort of leader is the President of Pakistan stating (paraphrased, I don't have the exact quote) "Bombing a mosque and killing women and children is tragic, but these comics represent blasphemy!", well, I can't help but be appalled.

Religion of peace huh? Then their leaders need to crap, or get off the pot.

The Free Muslims do indeed protest terrorism. Kamal Nawash (the president) makes a good case for his position. And they have probably the best solution for the Israeli-Arab conflict I have ever read.

BUT

When the Free Muslims organised a demonstration against terrorism few Muslims bothered to come. And despite Kamal Nawash's background (he is from Palestine) and achievements (he is an immigration lawyer and one-time Republican state senate candidate) few Muslims seem to take him seriously. It is more unfortunate that his peace plan wouldn't work since the Arabs in Palestine don't want peace.


Nevertheless I have the greatest respect for Kamal Nawash and his organisation. They have some semi-prominent members who can make a brilliant case for why Islam can indeed be a religion of peace. He is one of the few Muslims who keep me believing that Islam is, if not a solution, at least not the problem.

Finally, moderate voices rose above the din of extremist rhetoric to have themselves heard as thousands of ordinary Muslims — angry and embarrassed by the controversy over Prophet Muhammed's cartoons — held a massive rally in Trafalgar Square, central London, on Saturday against "incitement'' in the name of religion.
Link

The participants in the demonstrations summoned with a declaration the Arab League to announce economic boycott as well as other measures against the states desecrating the Islamic religious symbols. The authorities in Libya denounce the manifestation of violence and started investigation on the incident.
Link


"We are really bothered by this depiction," Araim said. "But we believe in peaceful expression of opinions."

Sundas urged Muslims to consider a story about the prophet when he was criticized.

A woman threw garbage at Muhammad every day as he walked by her house, Sundas said.

"One day she didn't throw it," Sundas said. "He knocked on the door to ask if she was OK.
Link

Riots have broken out around the world in recent weeks during protests against the cartoons that first appeared in a Danish newspaper last September. Members of at least one Montreal mosque say they will go ahead with a public demonstration over the concerns of other Muslims in the community.

"Our slogan will be no violence and we appeal for calm and peace," Zoubouer Hachani, a spokesman for the Al Qods mosque, told reporters Friday.
Link

And there are more where those came from. Like I said earlier, that's not in the news, so it must not be important.

And I'm not defending Islam, because it's sexy to do so, or otherwise. I'm defending the muslim people I know from bigots implying that all muslims are the same.

And there are more where those came from. Like I said earlier, that's not in the news, so it must not be important. And I'm not defending Islam, because it's sexy to do so, or otherwise. I'm defending the muslim people I know from bigots implying that all muslims are the same.

Again, thanks for the links and info.

I agree 100% that the news media is to blame in part for not covering this stuff more. And it is good to know it is happening. I just hope it happens on a degree sufficient enough to make a difference.

I'm defending the muslim people I know from bigots implying that all muslims are the same.

That is a worthy cause. One I agree to as well, and I hope I have made it clear in my posts that I don't believe the majority of Muslims are like those depicted in the photo above.

I don't listen to Rand because I think she was a kook. If she lived now, most people who worship her like a prophet would be condemning her for her homophobia. She was yet another self-deluded thinker passing off subjective philosophy as objective "reason".

The same could be said about most of the authors of the bible.

"One day she didn't throw it," Sundas said. "He knocked on the door to ask if she was OK.

That is a beautiful story, but it's not quite fitting here.

The west did not constantly insult Islam and suddenly stop.

In our case the story would go more something like this:

The lady constantly made fun of Judaism and Christianity. One time she made fun of Muhammed's beliefs. So he knocked on the door to ask if she was ok.

Of course current Islam would have him knock on the door and kill her.

The same could be said about most of the authors of the bible.

Yes, which is why Rand's philosophy should be considered a religion, although one without charity organisations.

"The same could be said about most of the authors of the bible."

I can agre with that. The authors of the Bible were folks just crawling out of the Dark Ages, and if you are talking about the sources for the individual books, your talking bronze age. I wouldn't expect them to be able to jive very well with the modern world.

That doesn't change the fact that I see just as much condemnation and and faux-superiority in Rand's 'followers' when I have to talk to them. There's always a problem with people who have the world all figured out and tied up into a neat package, and yet somehow it doesn't translate to much that is useful or beneficial to society.

Just do what they say and things will change and you'll have a great world. The proof comes later, after people accept the dogma. Have faith. Sounds oddly familiar...

I didn't say it wasn't a blog, I said it's not a blog site. Anyways, how exactly does that undermine the credibility of the message?

Because like "any" blog it's nothing more than someones "opinion".

Because like "any" blog it's nothing more than someones "opinion".

Isn't that what BlueDev and I were talking about here? Isn't that what I posted that in response to? Not enough muslim leaders taking a stand and voicing the opinion that they oppose the violence. It's the Free Muslim Coalition's official position on the issue, not some Joe Blow blogger. You should actually try reading things before you go off about them.

The same could be said about most of the authors of the bible.

Right on!

Can one then assume that they are more passionate about Cartoons than they are the murder of innocents?

Definitely.

You aren't implying that the government of Indonesia, or European nations, etc., prevent people from protesting terrorism?

But do Muslims actually protest terrorism, or do they protest the war on terror?

Anyone that posts anything that links to anything Michelle (My hubby really writes my stuff) Malkin has to say about anything has no credibility from the start.

Anyone that posts anything that links to anything Michelle (My hubby really writes my stuff) Malkin has to say about anything has no credibility from the start.

Whatever.

Anyone that posts anything that links to anything Michelle (My hubby really writes my stuff) Malkin has to say about anything has no credibility from the start.

Huh?

Isn't that what BlueDev and I were talking about here? Isn't that what I posted that in response to? Not enough muslim leaders taking a stand and voicing the opinion that they oppose the violence. It's the Free Muslim Coalition's official position on the issue, not some Joe Blow blogger. You should actually try reading things before you go off about them.

No it isn't what you said. This is:

Why aren't they speaking out against these ass hats? I truly believe that the 'majority' of Muslims are just as offended by this as I am, but it disturbs me that they are so silent on the matter. What makes you think that there are not muslims who are speaking out against the violence? Because you don't see it on the news? Link

Notice that no where in there did you even mention "opinion".

Baker, your adherance to logic is implacable. You could give both Mr. Spock AND Vito Corleone ("a man of 'reasonableness', whose logic was irresistable"---from the book "The Godfather", by Mario Puzo) a run for their coins. I wish I had that ability. Maybe I'd win more fights with my wife.

Well Sex is normally natural. I didn't mean the type where Priests "play" with kids in their spare time. Something that happens when people deny their natural needs.

--marcus

This was just unnecessary and lame; just a cheap shot from someone who doesn't believe. You can do better than this.