WHY ISRAEL MUST NEGOTIATE WITH HAMAS

You describe Hamas. But you make no case for why Israel should negotiate with them.

Furthermore, you don't even make a case for why there is a question of whether Israel should negotiate with Hamas. Since Hamas don't recognize Israel and want to destroy it, why should Israel talk to them? There is simply no reason.

The Arab Palestinians should be treated by Israel like any nation that votes to attack another is usually treated. And the rest of the world should not aid them in any way. It's very easy. There is simply no reason to talk to them, to give them money, to even recognize them as a nation.

The Arabs could have gotten their state several times. They always refused. What on earth makes you think that Israel should continue to give them a chance to say no?

(Why do you always screem the title of your articles?)

It is likely that the Hamas leadership will have to moderate its views in conformity with power. However Israel will have a tough act to follow.

Don't you mean the other way around? It is Hamas who has to change to a similar level to that of Israel and so it is Hamas who has a tough act to follow. You see Israel is already moderate in it's views in conformity with power, it is Hamas, as you so nicely point out, that has to moderate and so they will be the ones with problems not Israel.

And as Andrew J. Brehm said, you made no argument as to why Israel "has" to negociate with Hamas.

Hamas has 2 choices now, they can either continue to be the terrorist they have been know to be till now and continue to attack Israel and ignore their responsability as leaders of a nation and responsability to their people while now being an easy target for their enemies, such as the US, since they are now the Gov't and there are not many places to hide when you have to lead an entire country. Or they can take their duties as leaders of Palestine, move away from terrorism and become part of the rest of the world, try to form new relationships with other countries and find a more diplomatic solution to the problem with Israel.

We all know what they will chose, or have already.

It is likely that the Hamas leadership will have to moderate its views in conformity with power.

Why should they have to moderate? They were elected by the oppressed Palestinian people to stand up militantly to the Zionist invaders. Moderation is capitualation, and the Palestinian people have spoken. They are sick of surrender and dehumanization.

Zionist invaders

Priceless!

After four or five Arab wars with the goal of driving the Jews into the sea (after driving them out of all the other Arab countries), the Jews have now become "invaders".

Next on this program: the pieces process, where Hamas attempt to hack the Jews into pieces.

I wish the "Palestinians" really were an oppressed people. They would be much cheaper for the EU and the US if they were. Real oppressed peoples don't get hundred of millions of Euros in aid. And real oppressed peoples do not try to kill their neighbours all the time.

Real oppression might be a good change for a bit.

I am sure Hamas will implement the required bits.

palistinians attack and kill jews= freedom fighter against the zionist invaders.

Jews target a "freedom fight" {read terrorist}= horrible use of power to keep the poor palistinians down!

gahhh

#4 by Just passing by (Anonymous user) Tuesday, February 14, 2006

I would recomend you take your name as advice to yourself.

palistinians attack and kill jews= freedom fighter against the zionist invaders. Jews target a "freedom fighter" {read terrorist}= horrible use of power to keep the poor palistinians down!

Got it.

It's easy enough once you get the hang of it.

Also note:

anti-Semitism"
noun
Hostility or prejudice against Jews in the past and theoretically in the present unless targeted at Israel. In fact, classic anti-semitism and its major crimes ended on May 15 1948.

"expansionism"
noun
Israel's policy of defeating Arab countries that try to destroy the Jewish state.

"freedom fighter"
noun
A peace activist targeting Jews (see "peace activist").

"Palestinian"
noun
A non-Jewish inhabitant of Palestine (see "German" in Hitler's dictionary) and any descendant living anywhere else. Some Palestinians are Egyptians. Most Palestinians are Muslims. There are Christian Palestinians, but they are often Palestinians for a shorter time.

http://citizenleauki.joeuser.com/index.asp?aid=81628

This is why Israel never killed Arafat all those years. There is actually far worse... should anyone be surprised that the Pals would select the most repugnant people to lead them?

Of the Quartet only Russia has been pragmatic enough to invite the Hamas leadership.

Really?

"The group of international mediators (the USA , the EU, the UN and Russia) laid down three conditions to Hamas: to recognize Israel 's right for existence, end the armed struggle and follow all the previously signed agreement. Brussels and Washington will not negotiate with the new Palestinian government if it refuses to meet the three requirements." PRAVDA 14Feb06

While Russia maybe willing to talk to Hamas about thier Charter, they are far from willing to open their wallets. At this time the US, EU and Russia has declared that they will not give money to a Hamas ran Government until Hamas changes its charter.

Until Hamas changes Charter number thirteen, there is no reason to talk with them. Because they even spell out that talks are a waist of time:

Article Thirteen: Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.


Link

So the sins of one group cover the sins of another? Oddly, I don't see that. If Hamas ejected everyone that had helped and promoted the killing of innocents, maybe it would make sense. Instead, you seem to be saying that if your government has done bad things, the best thing to do is legitimize other people's crimes.

Not everyone agrees that the acts of Hamas are understandable given the situation in Palestine. People don't excuse senseless violence just because the violent were wronged. I'm glad that isn't the case, since only a perfect nation, totally free of historical sins, could reject the legitimacy of any authority, know matter how evil.

. Moderation is capitualation, and the Palestinian people have spoken. They are sick of surrender and dehumanization.Bonus Rating: Trolling Insightful

While Russia maybe willing to talk to Hamas about thier Charter, they are far from willing to open their wallets.

Furthermore, you don't even make a case for why there is a question of whether Israel should negotiate with Hamas. Since Hamas don't recognize Israel and want to destroy it, why should Israel talk to them? There is simply no reason.

Let me start with the last post. Power ans governace and its everyday problems will bring about moderation in the views of the Hamas leadership, if not the rank and file. Therfore Israel and the Quartet must negotiaste in good faith.

The first post. It is impossible to go back to 1948 and set the clock back. What happened was a tragedy of gargantuan propotions and the time has come to be pragmatic. There is no way USA will allow any war against Israel, and hence it is better to be prudent than sorry. I know it is difficult but an attempt must be made. Moderation is not capitulation afterall did not Sharon withdraw from the West Bank. No I dont think suicide bombing had much to do with the decision. It is the realization that only a Two State solution as envisaged by the road map is a practical solution.

Russia may notr be willing as yopu say to open its purse but squeezing the Palestinan Authority of funds will not go well in the world and it will escalate into sustained militant campaigns.

Not everyone agrees that the acts of Hamas are understandable given the situation in Palestine. People don't excuse senseless violence just because the violent were wronged. I'm glad that isn't the case, since only a pe

It may not be a sensible thing to say but I think it is best to leave the Middle East to settle its own disputes. As for the Palestenians, in 1948 they were betrayed by their own Arab Governments and with the on set of the Cold War the problem became worse. I think it is just atrocious that Palestenians are denied basic human rights that the rest of the world takes for granted. This includes the Palestenians in Israel.

"It may not be a sensible thing to say but I think it is best to leave the Middle East to settle its own disputes."

I may be a pessimist, but I think the last thing the powers that be in the Middle East want to do is settle this dispute. Granted, they have shifted more toward tolerating the existence of Israel, but they've shown time and again a Palestinian state isn't nearly as profitable and edifying to them as the Palestinians suffering where they are, and the 'great struggle' continueing. HAMAS's favorite time to attack is on the eve of talks to settle the dispute.

" I think it is just atrocious that Palestenians are denied basic human rights that the rest of the world takes for granted. This includes the Palestenians in Israel."

Again, not to be insulting to the Muslim world, but there aren't many nations IN the Middle East that don't deny the basic human rights that the rest of the world takes for granted. Even in the most moderate and secular nations, Westerners would find things that trouble them deeply.

As you say, you can't turn the clock back to 1948. Millions have been born in Israel for generations since. They aren't interlopers anymore, they are natives. In a perfect world, sure, they should leave freely alongside Palestinians, but since the day the nation was founded they've had to protect themselves from people like those in Hamas.

Make no mistake, it isn't just Hamas in a vacuum. Other Middle Eastern nations have been fighting a proxy war with Israel through these terrorist organizations. Will it be different when Hamas finally accomplished the Palestinian dream and has a seat in the UN? Or will it just be a more stable foothold with which to launch further fundamentalist attacks on Israel's right to be there in the first place?

The only way we can be certain it isn't is if we don't have to deal with people who are responsible for launching terrorist attacks and supporting the terrorist organization. Anything else is legitimizing their past behavior by telling the world all you have to do is create enough mayhem and perpetuate the suffering of the people you represent to become a diplomat..

Let me start with the last post. Power ans governance and its everyday problems will bring about moderation in the views of the Hamas leadership, if not the rank and file. Therefore Israel and the Quartet must negotiate in good faith.

Until this actually happens...there will be no talking! Israel must negotiate in good faith? Just how do you propose to negotiate with someone who has stated categorically that one of their objectives is to destroy your country totally! Like it's been said before....until Hamas changes it's tune, there will be no talks.

The prestige of Yasser Arafat was deeply dented when the Israeli government in wanton disregard to the canons of international law bombed the headquarters of Arafat and forced him to live the rest of his life in a hole ten feet under the ground. He was forbidden to travel and with the threat of Israeli state sponsored assassination hanging over his head, Yasser Arafat was essentially rendered irrelevant to the political sphere.

Arafat was under the threat of state sponsored assassination because he was a terrorist. He and his government both aided and abetted terrorists and terroristic acts. Specifically acts against Jews in general.

"Like it's been said before....until Hamas changes it's tune, there will be no talks."

The problem is, they HAVE changed their tune. They have backpedaled over and over, and even this week said they would consider disarming if demands were met.

At the same time, Khaled Mashaal, their exiled leader in the Sudan said:

"There will be no recognition of Israel and there will be no security for the occupation and colonization forces," Mashaal told a rally in Khartoum. "Resistance will remain our strategic option."

You can't negotiate with murderers and the insane that talk out of both sides of their mouths. You can't even put conditions like changing their tune on it, because they can't say what their tune will be tomorrow.

There will be no recognition of Israel and there will be no security for the occupation and colonization forces," Mashaal told a rally in Khartoum. "Resistance will remain our strategic option."

The logic of the situatiion will eventually lead to the two state solution and public statements made for the consumption of the rank and file will not deter Israel from opening a dialogue with, yes, even Hamas. Tell me there is no alternative. And Hamas is certainly more moderate than certain other groups. Hamas will certainly give up its militancy once it comes to power and gets on with the task of governance. The Bush supported attempt to starve the Palestenian Auhthority of funds will be countercproductive.

"Hamas will certainly give up its militancy once it comes to power and gets on with the task of governance. "

No, they'll just do what Arafat did and separate their military and political wing, and pretend that they aren't responsible for what the militants do. Better still, they'll have the coffers of the Palestinian Authority at their disposal to both spend on arms and launder all the ill-gotten money the receive. They'll claim peace, and the boatloads of arms will keep coming, bought with the money meant to feed Palestinians, just as Arafat did before them.

As for the Palestenians, in 1948 they were betrayed by their own Arab Governments and with the on set of the Cold War the problem became worse.

That is true. But did you ever see any primary source from before 1968 that spoke of "Palestinians" as (solely) the Arabs living in Palestine?

I think it is just atrocious that Palestenians are denied basic human rights that the rest of the world takes for granted. This includes the Palestenians in Israel.

Which basic human rights are they denied?

How do they compare to the inhabitants of other countries in the region and in the world, specifically with other occupied territories?

For example, how does Palestine compare to Western Sahara, human-rights-wise?

Do you differentiate between rights the Arab Palestinians cannot make use of because they are in a war against Israel (which they wanted) and between rights Israel took from them for fun? Did they have any rights when they were under Egyptian and Jordanian occupation that they don't have any more?

Should Israel recognize the supposed rights of a population that does not recognize Israel or the human rights of Jews?

Why?

And which rest of the world takes human rights for granted? The middle east? Arab countries? Jews are not even allowed in Saudi Arabia, and homosexuals are executed. Are these the human rights Arabs take for granted? Is that what Israel denies them?

If Israel treated Muslims like Saudi Arabia treats Jews, would that satisfy the demands that Israel respect the humen rights everybody else takes for granted?

In what ways does Israel have to change?

And what would be the benefit to Israel?

No, they'll just do what Arafat did and separate their military and political wing, and pretend that they aren't responsible for what the militants do

It is difficult for a state actor to claim deniability, but very easy form non state actors: this is the reason why Hamas must be incorporated into the styate structure. Put it cynically, you might say that it is safer to deal with Hamas as a legitimate political actor than ignoring it and driving it underground. I am reminded of a famous line from Nixon : it is better to have them iside the tent than outside.

That is true. But did you ever see any primary source from before 1968 that spoke of "Palestinians" as (solely) the Arabs living in Palestine?

Palestine and a nationality Palestinean is recognised by the Balfour Declaration of 1919. True Arabs were a part of the Ottoman Empire but after the end of the Ottoman Empire distinct territories were carved out keeping the interests of the Oil companies. Kuwait over which the First Gulf War was faught had no independent existenxce as a state before the emirate was created.

Palestine and a nationality Palestinean is recognised by the Balfour Declaration of 1919.

1917 Balfour Declaration:

Foreign Office November 2nd, 1917 Dear Lord Rothschild, I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet. "His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country." I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation. Yours sincerely, Arthur James Balfour

It doesn't speak of a Palestinian nation, only of all sorts of people living in Palestine. The idea that a "Palestinian" is, specifically, a non-Jewish (and possibly non-Druze) inhabitant of Palestine came up very late. In fact I have never seen any pre-1968 or pre-1948 primary source that used the word "Palestinian" to describe an Arab living in Palestine.

Kuwait over which the First Gulf War was faught had no independent existenxce as a state before the emirate was created.

That is true for all countries in the world. None of them had an independent existence before they were created.

Kuwait, however, was established in the 18th century and was not a part of the Ottoman Empire (and hence not a part of Iraq).

(Btw, the first Gulf War that I remember was between Iraq and Iran. You mean the second Gulf War.)

The logic of the situation will eventually lead to the two state solution

There will be a two-state solution as soon as the Arabs accept a two-state solution.

They had all the time in the world to accept it. It was offered in 1948, between 1949 and 1968, and in 2000. They rejected it, rejected it, and rejected it.

There is no "peace process" requires to arrive at a two-state solution. Israel is fine with it. Israel has always been fine with it. The Arabs simply have to accept it.

Do you know the story about the woman and the 12 books of wisdom? She came to a city and offered to sell them the 12 books which she said contained all the wisdom in the world. The city refused.

She then burned 6 of the books and left with the rest.

The next year she came back and offered the city the remaining 6 books for more gold than she asked for for the 12 books. The city refused.

She burned 3 of the books and left with the rest.

Again she came back and offered to sell the remaining 3 books of wisdom, a quarter of all the wisdom in the world. The city refused and she burned 2 of the books, leaving with one.

And when she came back again the city paid her much more gold than she even demanded for the 3 books for thr remaining 1 book.

This is what the Arab Palestinians are doing. And they still think they can get all the books for free.

They could have had Gaza, the West Bank, East-Jerusalem, the old city, and much of the Negev plus much of the north, but they refused.

They could have had Gaza, the West Bank, and East-Jerusalem including the old city, but they refused.

They could have had Gaza and the West Bank, they refused.

Now they will get whatever Israel wants to give.

My guess is Gaza and the West Bank sans Jerusalem and without the area needed for the fence and several of the larger settlements.

But the Palestinian Arabs will never learn that they won't throw the Jews into the sea. And the Arab nationalist dream of a Jew-free middle east will not come to pass.



Israel is there to stay. But don't blame Israel for the Arabs' inability to accept that fact.

I seriously wonder you people have ever negotiated ANYTHING with anyone. Would you ever negotiate with a car dealer if his opening price for a Honda Civic was $150,000? You people don't actually negotiate, though. You assemble a coalition of freaks to DEMAND someone give you what you want.

I guess you could consider Hamas moderate next to Islamic Jihad. They don't even bother with social services or a "political wing". They're all suicide bombings, all the time.