ACLU's Not-So-Secret Agenda

Indeed they are.  But in a sense, they are pure and honest.  They truly beleive their own rhetoric.  Which makes them that much scarier.  When they cannot tell the difference between propaganda and fact, the cease to be sane, and become delusional.

Another Baldwin quote: So long as we have enough people in this country willing to fight for their rights, we'll be called a democracy.

You're forgetting that he was born in another time: 1885 to be exact. If you want to take quotes out of context, here are a few more for you:

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.
Thomas Jefferson

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
Thomas Jefferson

This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religions in it.
John Adams

Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the private school, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and state forever separate.
Ulysses S. Grant

If you want to take quotes out of context, here are a few more for you:

I love trolls. They are a great way to keep your mind sharp.

First of all, I think that Baldwin's actions belie his true ideals. Sure, he may have said some slightly patriotic things, but his principles and his heart lay in the ACLU, which has been and continues to be an enemy of the state to this day.

You're forgetting that he was born in another time: 1885 to be exact. If you want to take quotes out of context, here are a few more for you:

Jefferson, Adams & Grant were all correct, then & now. What exactly was out of context?

What exactly was out of context?

Again why I love trolls... they come in, plop a poopie down, and don't have to clean up after themselves.
I, like Daiwa, wonder what Baldwin quotes were taken out of context? I'm still not seeing it...

good article dave, I too think the aclu is one of the most dangerous orginazations in america.

Trolls are like those little "floaters" in the toilet, no matter how much you flush they just will not go away.

Nice

#2 by musicguy (Anonymous user) Sunday, February 12, 2006

Maybe you should just stick to music.

I love trolls. They are a great way to keep your mind sharp. - singrdave

I really don't see how post #2 qualifies as a 'troll post'. The poster used no derogatory language, made no smear attacks, and attempted to illustrate a point using researched quotes.

I guess because the poster doesn't regularly post here and used an 'anonymous' or non-registered account, he is automatically a troll? Come now.

What I enjoy is my feeling that everyone who posted in response felt a certain chord strummed by the poster's point.

The ACLU doesn't have an 'agenda' - but they do have a mission, that mission statement is found here: Link.

The heart of the mission statement says this:

The American system of government is founded on two counterbalancing principles: that the majority of the people governs, through democratically elected representatives; and that the power even of a democratic majority must be limited, to ensure individual rights.

Majority power is limited by the Constitution's Bill of Rights, which consists of the original ten amendments ratified in 1791, plus the three post-Civil War amendments (the 13th, 14th and 15th) and the 19th Amendment (women's suffrage), adopted in 1920.

The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:



Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state.



Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.



Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.



Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs.


Sounds like the only 'agenda' of the ACLU is to KEEP AMERICA FREE.

So singrdave, what is the insidious agenda you referred to?

No, the ACLU is pursuing a more insidious agenda?

at very least, they shoulda let rush spend a few nights in the clink before they took his case.

My problem with the ACLU is their opposition to sex offender lists and their defence of NAMBLA and others like them.

My problem with the ACLU is their opposition to sex offender lists and their defence of NAMBLA and others like them.

You can't claim to defend the constitutional freedoms if you don't defend the unsavoury ones as much as the PC. From what I've seen of ACLU's work they do a lot of good, and on the issues where they take a platform-required but morally suspect stance they get struck down, so no big deal.

I'm glad there's organisations like the ACLU and the EFF in the US, cos without them conditions would be worse world-wide.

and their defence of NAMBLA

nothing i know about nambla excuses nor mitigates its existence. in a better world, there would be no such thing.

abhorrent as it and its members may be, until it and they do something illegal, squelching their outrageous message does as much damage as censoring mohammed cartoons.

if nambla injures people or destroys property--whether by intention or negligence--they, like cartoonists or anyone else equally responsible, can and should be hauled into court to have the facts tried. should they be found liable, they should be made to compensate their victims.

that doesn't mean they aren't entitled to a defense...especially when this is the kinda case made against them.

28. Prior to joining NAMBLA Charles Jaynes was heterosexual

118. As a direct and proximate result of the urging, advocacy conspiring and promoting of pedophile activity by NAMBLA, Radow, Powers, Thorstad, Miller, Herman, Hunter, Schoen, Charles Jaynes became obsessed with having sex with a raping young male children

106) The Defendant John Doe Inc.'s malicious, willful, wanton or reckless conduct directly and proximately caused the death of Jeffrey J. Curley under such circumstances that Jeffrey J. Curley could have recovered damages for personal injuries if his death had not resulted.

note that joe doe inc is an internet service provider.

in other words, the the killer-rapists were not responsible for their behavior because they were led astray by the internet.

"You can't claim to defend the constitutional freedoms if you don't defend the unsavoury ones as much as the PC."

There's a difference between defending rights and inventing new ones. By stating that disseminating public information is somehow NOT the right of the government, they deny our right to have easy access to that information.

"abhorrent as it and its members may be, until it and they do something illegal, squelching their outrageous message does as much damage as censoring mohammed cartoons."

I know where you are coming from, and I agree to a point. The ACLU walks a fine line with they represent the rights of people who are trying to rob others of rights. That's one reason they are so hesitant to represent anti-abortion folks, and it would be understandable to me if they didn't at all considering they consider that a right. They put themselves in the position of being on the other side of the courtroom from the people they represent constantly.\

I guess that is what is so maddening about them to many people. It's a blind ideal. It's hard to get your mind around the idea that they are trying to make the world a better place when they so often represent people that are trying their best to accomplish things totally counter to the aims of the ACLU.

abhorrent as it and its members may be, until it and they do something illegal, squelching their outrageous message does as much damage as censoring mohammed cartoons.

Sorry KB but what they stand for is illegal in the first place. "North American Man/Boy Love Association".

"Sorry KB but what they stand for is illegal in the first place. "North American Man/Boy Love Association".

Well, some might say that the NRA stands for illegal activities, too, considering they are fighting to repeal gun ownership laws. The difference to me is that the acts that NAMBLA wants to permit immediately conflict with other people's rights, i.e. the right of children to be free from victimization.

People like MLK condoned breaking the laws to protect people's rights. NAMBLA thinks they are protecting kids rights to have sex with skanky old people. There are times you have to decide that blind fairness might not be the best policy.

Cacto:

if you don't defend the unsavoury ones as much as the PC.

Have you noticed that the most unsavory ones are the ones that are "politically correct"?! ::

Baker:

The ACLU walks a fine line with they represent the rights of people who are trying to rob others of rights.

And I am all for defending the rights of citizens. But when an organization takes a clear and unwelcome social agenda, and does so on the grounds of a mandate from the masses, that organization goes too far.
Does not matter whether the organization in question is the ACLU or the NRA.

And speaking of the NRA...

Well, some might say that the NRA stands for illegal activities, too, considering they are fighting to repeal gun ownership laws.

The NRA's basis for existence is the second amendment to the Constitution.

And speaking of the constitution... (do you like how this all segues together?)
Deference:

The ACLU doesn't have an 'agenda' - but they do have a mission

And thank you very much for finding the mission statement of the ACLU. I appreciate the posting because it illuminates the dialogue.

Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state.

The freedom to burn flags... freedom to piss on Jesus Christ's image... freedom to associate with young boys and have sex with them...

Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.

Unless you happen to belong to a church that tends towards social conservativism. The City of Salt Lake sold a parcel of downtown property to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who wanted to turn it into a park. A park open to the public, but on private property. Since it was on private property, the Church felt it could enforce certain rules, like no public protests, no loud music, no smoking. The ACLU intervened, trying to prevent the Church from banning those activities on its own property. After several appeals on both sides, a few years, and no small amount of money, the courts finally stated that the Church could enforce its rules on its own property.

From KSL.com:
A civil liberties lawyer says a deal giving control of a downtown Salt Lake City plaza to the Mormon church must be overturned -- because it gives church officials police power over a public area, violating the constitution.

American Civil Liberties Union lawyer Mark Lopez told a three-judge appeals court panel in Denver this morning that Salt Lake City retains some authority over the plaza, and must enforce free-speech rights.

A 2003 agreement called for the city to give up a guarantee of public access to the plaza, in exchange for church-owned land elsewhere in the area.

But Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints attorney Alan Sullivan claims the agreement guaranteed the church the right to refuse public access, and enforce its own rules.

at very least, they shoulda let rush spend a few nights in the clink before they took his case.

They did not take his case.  The filed an Amicus Curie Brief.

what they stand for is illegal in the first place

it's only illegal when acted upon. i can read & write about using drugs or committing burglaries nonstop for the next year without violating any laws. i can also legally call for the decriminalization of both drug use and burglary. i can legally display images of drug paraphenalia and burglary tools as well. it's totally legal to post first person accounts describing all the pleasures and profits to be had by engaging in both activities.

you--or someone you rob--can attempt have me arrested or file a civil suit to collect for damages by claiming any or all of my actions described above caused you to engage in the use of drugs and/or to commit burglary. to win, you'll have to convince a judge and/or jury danish cartoonists are responsible for causing a mob to burn down an embassy.

Well, some might say that the NRA stands for illegal activities, too, considering they are fighting to repeal gun ownership laws. The difference to me is that the acts that NAMBLA wants to permit immediately conflict with other people's rights, i.e. the right of children to be free from victimization.

Some might say it, but they'd be mightily wrong. What the NRA stands for is ALL about the second amendment. Now "how" is that illegal? Just an FYI baker.....most gun ownership laws are considered unconstitutional. Most of the laws you're referring too limit a constitutional right given to the citizens of the US.

Now what NAMBLA stands for is a perversion and that is something that is "not" guaranteed by the constitution.

Now what NAMBLA stands for is a perversion and that is something that is "not" guaranteed by the constitution.

Aren't NAMBLA's defenders using the 1st Amendment's "freedom of assembly" provision?
That's how the Boy Scouts were able to withstand the ACLU assault.

And thank you very much for finding the mission statement of the ACLU. I appreciate the posting because it illuminates the dialogue. - Singrdave

My pleasure. I always like to add to the dialogue...particularly when it is so tolerably conducted.