you can be religous but lost.  There are many religions out there who do not honor the God of the Scriptures. 

exactly because it had nothing to do with a sexual nature.  If it had, you would have heard much condemnation from God thru probably the prophet Nathan. 

Then what about this?    Moses said

"And the man that commits adultery with another man's wife, even he that commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."  Lev 20:10

it goes on and on about the man's role in engaging in sex outside of marriage in all sorts of diff situations.  It's all quite clear.  That's why it was so hypocritical when the Pharisees threw a woman on the ground infront of Jesus demanding she be stoned.   The woman didn't commit adultery alone.  There was a man involved...where was he?  Both were to be put to death. 

Besides all this..you said you've read this right?  What do you think Nathan was saying to David in 2 Samuel 12? 

where did you get this? 

You're still not understanding this whole scene.  This is a friendship of the once in a lifetime kind.  The Spirit of God cements two people together as part of his plan.  David was very important in the whole plan of God as he would be the future King of Israel and the one whom the Messiah's lineage would be connected.  God sustained David during this very difficult time with Saul trying to kill him by using Jonathan as a protector and friend.  God sent Jonathan to be part of David's life when he was alone and running, hiding out in caves. 

The friendship of Jonathan and David was far more than common.  They shared a common goal; the will of God.  They were bonded by this. 

but you said this: 

I just showed you where Moses made it quite clear (in the whole chapter) that man was to blame.  Not the women.  Man.  Read Lev 20 and tell me that's not what it says.    You say it has NOTHING to do with the man yet Moses is quite clear and I even underlined it for you.  Read this again carefully. 

"And the man that commits adultery with another man's wife, even he that commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."  Lev 20:10

you just told me (notice bold in your response) that men cannot commit adultery when Moses says men can (notice underlined in verse) so whom am I to believe?  You or Moses?  Not only that but the man was to die for punishment.  I would say that was sin.  "The wages of sin is death." 

I thought you said you read this?  How can you make all these assertions Leauki when you don't know the full context?   You don't know who Bathsheba is?    She was married btw. 

that's exactly right so stop saying it. 

no, I'm reading it literally and taking the whole story in context.  You're arguing a point with non-evidence over one line.   

why should it?  Everytime there's a friendship relationship between two men is it supposed to qualify it with a "we're not gay" statement?  What about Jesus and John?  We read about John laying on the breast of Jesus at dinner and that John was the apostle that Christ loved.  Does that mean John and Jesus were gay as well? 

You're getting this from somwhere so fess up.  This sounds like someone with an ax to grind against the scriptures probably someone with homosexual tendencies looking for something that's not there.  So not sure why you're grabbing ahold of such nonesense. 

and you're making a HUGE assumption that he was.  Why would David commit  something that is an outright abomination to God?  Especially after he was so broken up over the fact he sinned against God by taking another man's wife? 

what the text is showing us is their devotion to each other yes, but not sexual devotion and you're looking for something that's not there.  Jonathan showed selfless commitment to David even tho he recognized that David would succeed his father as King.  He was very loyal and committed to David much like we see in marital love.  But one can be loyal and committed to another being even of one's own sex without it being sexual. 

Homosexuality is such an abomination against God it's repeated in the NT when many other things are not. 

"If a man lie with mankind as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an obomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."  Lev 20:13

"You shall not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination."  Lev 18:22

There's no way God was going to say this was ok for David, the King that he chose because David was a man after his own heart.  Makes no sense Leauki.  Besides David lived to be an old man and died a natural death.  God did not put him down which he would have had this happened.   You're getting some really bad info. 

Oh I see....even tho Moses came right out and said "a man commits adultery" he doesn't mean it?  He means something else....because....you say so...or somone is telling you this?     And the fact that it doesn't say David was gay but he was because you say so just because he had a loving man relationship? 

You're twisting the scriptures Leauki to make them say what you wish. 

Have you talked to a Rabbi about this?  I would like you to ask a Rabbi if he thinks David was gay based on what you said here and get back to me. 

I just spoke to my husband and asked me if ever heard such a claim about David.  he said to "tell Leauki the OT scriptures either contradict themselves or not.  It's just that simple.   Either God contradicts himself or he doesn't.  He can't call David a man after his own heart after saying homosexuality is an abomination if David was engaging in such behavior."

I'm not sure I get your question.  Theft is diff than adultery.  Both men and women commit adultery probably pretty equally but stealing a wife would be much more common than stealing a husband especially in those days now wouldn't it?  I mean men are strongter than women.  I just don't picture a woman stealing a man (trying to picture her throwing the man over her shoulder and walking away with him )   I don't think it was even an issue.  What got addressed were the issues. 

I mean even today...thinking of all the sexual kidnappings.  Who does them?  Men or women?  It seems to be a man problem not a woman's problem.   Whenever we hear of a woman doing what men usually do, we are shocked. 

you keep saying this as tho you're trying to convince yourself.  Again, this is not biblical.  Moses was quite clear.  I think this goes way back to the women not being very honored by the Jewish men.  When Jesus came he elevated women to where he created them to be...by the side of man.  Men and woman were created equal and scripture doesn't contradict this although tradition does.  I think you're erring on the side of tradition Leauki. 

I did some digging Leauki and found this in one of my commentaries on 1 Samuel 18:1-4 which is what you brought up:

The ambiguous verb "loved" describes the relationship.  Tom Horner (Jonathan Loved David: Homosexuality in Biblical Times) asserts that the relationship between David and Jonathan was homosexual.  But the verb "aheb" (love) is not used elsewhere to express homosexual desire or activity, for which the OT employes "yada" (know), in the sense of "have sex with" (Gen 19:5, Judg 19:22).  The latter verb is never used of David's relationship with Jonathan.  Rather as conveniently summarized by Thompson (The Significance of the Verb Love" pp.334-38) "love" has political overtones in diplomatic and commercial contexts." 

Indeed, "we may suspect that already in 1 Samuel 16:21 the narrator is preparing us for the later political use of the term.  A clear example of the treaty/covenant use of "love" is 1 Kings 5:1, which says that Hiram King of Tyre "had always 'loved' David".  To summarize:  In vv1,3 the narrator probably uses the ambiguous word love "aheb" because it denoted more than natural affection however deep and genuine this may have been. 

He goes on to give quite a few other scripture references to look at and then goes on to say their intimate friendship was characterized by the phrase "nepes niqs rah b nepes"  (became one in spirit with or spirit bound with spirit).  I don't think you understand this quite because you are not indwelt with this spirit.  It's hard to explain but the relationship a spirit believer has with another spiritual believer is deeper than flesh and blood.  My church family (no matter what country I meet them in) are closer to me than my own immediate family because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. 

There's no doubt they had devotion for one another and a spirit bonding that made them so close but to say they were homosexuals is a perverse way to look at this love between two men.  We see this same love between Jesus and John as John was the beloved Apostle.  Wherever Jesus was John was right nearby. 

there you go.  Your rabbi is correct. 

It just dawned on me that I need to clear this statement up because it sounds like it came across awkwardly. I didn't mean that I was in the relationships all at once, I mean that i was in several - spread out. I'm completely monogomous.

~AJ

But when will I be so perfect that I have time to worry about other people's crimes against G-d? That'll be the day when I start worrying about other people's crimes against the lord. That'll be the day...

Wisest words I've heard in a long time. But then your positions, posts, articles are always very intellectual and interesting. Hope you keep posting for a long time Leauki.

I'm almost always late to these conversations or I post then forgot about them and there's been 20 pages and I don't feel like reading them.

First, someone made a comment about our sexuality never brought down fall to a society.  This statement is somewhat true. Yet if you look at the corruption of morals and people start getting really corrupted most society collaspe.  You can see this in Ancient Greece (there's a book called Ancient Greece: A political, social, and Cultural History and Rise and Fall of Athens its university book) and you can see this moral decay in Ancient Rome (heck they put phallics on their door posts as well as the did the Greeks this can be seen with Roman Civilizations: The empire and The fall of the Rome Empire by Goldsmith).  I am saying that moral decay had a huge impact on the downfall of these two societies.

Second, most of the surrounding nations during biblical Israel times were HIGHLY sexual in every form.  For example, Asherah poles were big phallic symbols.  I wonder what went on there during those worships services (not really they had huge orgies)? With history, we can see that most of the surrounding pagan nations were open to orgies, homosexuality, and beastuality.  Hence why G-D didn't want any Israelite to inter-marry with them.  With in the last 15 years scientist were able to find that the one nation that Israel didn't destory that 3 STDs probably originated there.

So this should lead to the conclusion that King David wasn't gay just by the fact how G-D kept telling the Isralites not to act like the surrounding nations as well as.

Third, I don't have anything against homosexuals.  I do feel that its wrong and just as wrong as if a hetersexual person would go around having sex with a bunch of people. 

Now, actually I have a fair amount of friends that I know are homosexuals.  I enjoy hanging out with them and I am not even remotely gay.  I enjoy hanging out with them because they are very open about life.  AJ, if you lived near me I would probably enjoying hanging out with you.

The issue with sexuality is that it brings a quick intimacy.  When you have multiple sexual encounters whether its homo/hetero or even with porn it dulls your ability to be intimate with a single individual. There's been case studies on divorce that have found that when an individual has had 3 or more sexual encounters that there is a correlation with a high divorce.

As a Believer of Yeshua (Jesus Christ), I wish more Believers would be more open but instead most believers in the States tend to act like they have everything together.