d3adz0mbie

Join Date 10/2002

Tell the dead children

Think Saddam was contained? Think he wasn't a terrorist? Do you think, in any fashion, that the Iraq war was a mistake?

More Iraqi mass graves
"The head of the unit, Greg Kehoe, who has seen more than his share of horrors in places such as the Balkans, couldn’t believe what he saw.
"I’ve never seen women and children executed, defenseless people executed in this fashion," he said. "I mean, you look at a young woman holding her 2-year-old child with a gunshot wound to the back of the head. I can’t find any reason to justify that."
When I saw the images I could only think back to Hilla, a town south of Baghdad where I went in the spring of 2003, just after the fall of Saddam. A mass grave of Iraqi Shiites was discovered there.
I will never forget it for as long as I live. Thousands of bodies. Thousands of families swarming over piles of clothing and flesh. Earth-moving equipment digging through the raw humanity. Digging up the past."

Tell the dead children "wrong war, wrong time". Tell the dead mothers "blood for oil". Tell the sons, daughters and fathers of the dead that removing Saddam was a "colossal failure of judgment."

Go ahead, I dare you.

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yup, it kicks ass that we punish a mass murderer by bombing the very people he used to murder

the logic is astounding

"I survived Sadaam and all I got was this Hellfire missile strike on my house!"

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Insightful for myrrander.

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by bombing the very people he used to murder

So instead, we should have negotiated 20 more years until we realized it wasnt going to work. In these twenty years, who knows how many more deaths would have occurred

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My response? Who knows in the probably 20 years we will have to occupy Iraq how many deaths will occur? The difference being, a lot of those deaths will be Americans. And then we can say what about all the deaths in (North Korea/China/Colombia/Israel/Sudan/Chechnya/Indonesia/et al)? Are you advocating that America go kicking ass all across the earth (or at least in those places where such human rights violations are occuring)? And thanks for the insightful, TW.

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Myrrander: Think about what you just wrote.

"we punish a mass murderer by bombing the very people he used to murder"

First, lets start with "we punish". Who said we were punishing the Iraqi people? In any liberation there are casualties. Its horrible and one of the many reasons why war is terrible. Yet, there is no alternative in war. The USA has the most precise missle systems in the world, created through years of research because we want to reduce the inevitable innocent deaths that result in war. And yet, even though it is US missles that cause casualties, is it our fault? Or is it the fault of the monsters that took residence inside the community? The beasts that slaughtered humans like cattle? Is it better to allow our fellow humans to be slaughtered like animals? Is that your answer?

"the very people he used to murder" is a mistatement and misleading. The people Saddam used to murder are dead, buried all over the countryside, by the thousands. Death tolls attributed to Saddams reign of terror rise into the 100,000's. It is too late for them. The "very people" you refer to are people that were living under an oppresive dictatorship, never knowing when a child or husband or wife could be taken in the night or day and shot. Never knowing if they would be next to tortured. These people faced nothing but death.

Tell the children the US punished them because of Saddam. Its thinking like this that encourages unfounded hatred of Americans world wide.

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I find that replies like the one given before mine are illogical, immoral, inhuman, and evidence of the lack of wordly knowledge that many people have. It eats at me that folks are so blind as to not be able to see beyond the political and societal barracades put up in their lifetimes that they can't see the complete disregard for human life shown by "leaders" of some countries to their own people. What ever happened to compassion? Are most people in the world mice, amoebas, brainless entities programmed within rigid, ignorant, robotic, selfish paths as to not want to venture into areas they know not? Is it a "better them than me" attitude that seems to have engulfed us? Any person that thinks and has any feeling can easily see past this garbage we are deluged in daily and grasp the significance of what is happening to our world and what has happened to these people we have never met. For the ones who do, it outrages and angers and frightens us. What happened to humanity? If nobody has the guts, the foresight, the integrity to stop this massacre of innocents, then where will we be when we turn over this world to our children? Why can't anyone get past the politics? Why can't people see the ramifications of sitting on our hands and turning our collective head? In order to criticize and be taken seriously for it, I recommend a visit to Iraq or any surrounding country first. Walk a mile, then tell me it was wrong.

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Tell the dead children "wrong war, wrong time". Tell the dead mothers "blood for oil". Tell the sons, daughters and fathers of the dead that removing Saddam was a "colossal failure of judgment."

Go ahead, I dare you.

Now that the Iraqi people have paid the price, let's compound that with an American body count. Makes sense to me!

It's sad these things happened, it's sad Secretary of Defense Rumsfield GAVE those weapons to Saddam in the first place, but sending Americans to die won't bring them back. Try less emotion and more cognitive locomotion (brain) deadzombie.

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...I just have to add this... it's amazing how effective the Bush campaign's rhetoric has been in seizing American hearts and minds with patriotic / religious snake oil. Bush feels just like I do! Oh, he does? You believe that...that's what's sad. I like how people think Bush is just so deeply spiritual when his background is lacking in any religious substance aside a "I'm born again! Amen!" All the while amidst the third debate, Kerry is pulling out scripture quotes and Bush can barely muster (or is that bluster) a "God Bless America."

Sick Sick Sick

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Who said we were punishing the Iraqi people?

I did.

The people Saddam used to murder are dead

Very well, I will change my statement to "People OF THE SAME SORT as he used to murder," since you want to play the semantics game.

Tell the children the US punished them because of Saddam.

I don't have to. They seem to be coming to this conclusion all on their own. The one about "oil for war," too.

There are some other mothers you forgot to mention. Also fathers, wives, husbands, children, relatives, and friends. They're American, and over 1,000 of their people are in mass graves like Arlington Cemetary. They didn't have to be. I don't want any more of my countrymen and women to die.

I still hold with John Quincy Adams: "America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."

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d3adzOmbie:

Well, the counter-argument would run something like:

How about Darfur? What do you say about the U.S. lack of response? If you say "well, we can't be the world's policeman" what were you doing in Iraq? If you say, "not our problem" what were you doing in Iraq?

The thing is that there are lots of bullies in the world. Many have a government address. But if we are going to be selective in our choices, then no war is any better than any other.

So, let me ask? Are you saying we should have gone to war solely to stop Saddam's cruelty?

If yes, I can give a list where it probably has been just as great.

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yep, CrispE, I made a similiar point above. But I think you were better-spoken. Have an *insightful* from me.

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To clarify, I speak of Myrrander.

Since 1941, no deaths on the scale of September 11th have occurred on American soil. Within the last 60 years, we have become complacent. We have watched through the unblinking, unhuman eye of a television camera as the rest of the world has come under attack. In many situations, America has stepped in. In some instances we have been on the wrong side. That is evidence of selfishness over selflessness. You don't give this generation enough credit for their actions. All you see is death of American soldiers (unneeded in your eyes), while disregarding their reasons for becoming soldiers. You have just spit on the graves of all soldiers that have fallen for what they believed in. What the soldiers have done is not just for you, but for every person in this world and every person yet to come. If freedom for all isn't your bag, baby, I'm sorry, the majority believe it is. The reason young people go to war while the old men direct it is simple. Fire and fearlessness. When it goes, you can't ever get it back.
I don't believe America should be the only ones skirting the globe to stop bullies and murderers, but if we have to go it alone, then so be it. Someone always joins. There is a right and wrong, a black and white. After 2001, young men and and women saw it. They chose to defend our country against enemies both foreign and domestic. They raised their right hands and swore an oath to do the same. It is not an oath to be taken lightly. Nothing should ever be done halfassed. You hear John Kerry talk about "winning the peace." You do not win the peace, you win the war. Peace follows by definition. To win the peace is to appease the enemy. Peace comes from killing or neutralizing all the bad guys. Period.
The United States military is a voluntary service military. These kids signed up to do a job, they opted to give their lives for freedom for all. If you feel guilty about it, tough. If you want to do something about it, help out a military family. Send care packages, write letters to the troops. It does make a difference, trust me. If you believe in Utopia, believe there is no evil there. War is hell, but slavery and death by the hands of a murderer are far worse. This is not about you anyway, it's about generations yet to come. Can't you see that?

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How dare you speak for the families of these soldiers! You have no idea the background of these people, or the motivation behind their decision to become soldiers, airmen, sailors. You have no right to denegrate, belittle, begrudge their service. Ever. They fight and die, not for themselves, but for you, and everyone else who cannot. You are the selfish one, complaining, lamenting their death because you will not be able to see them again.

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blah blah blah

Who the hell's denigrating, belittling, or begrudging the soldiers? Not me. It's not their fault the President lied 1000 of them to their deaths. If the Iraq war had never happened, my life would be almost exactly the same as before, kiddo, so don't hand me that "for you" crap. When America is threatened, I'll buy it. When we "preemptively" attack somebody (and by the way, that's what happened on Dec 7, 1941 -- a preemptive attack -- we were just on the receiving end) -- that's not fighting for me.

You are the selfish one, complaining, lamenting their death because you will not be able to see them again.

This is, perhaps, the most insensitive thing against the families and loved ones of our troops I've ever heard. You should be ashamed.

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These kids signed up to do a job, they opted to give their lives for freedom for all

Since when does our military allow 12 year olds to patrol Baghdad?

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Yeah, I don't think I know a soldier in Iraq or Afghanistan right now under 21 years of age. Hardly kids. Furthermore Voodoostation -- you support an article that laments the loss of Iraqis and reprimand me for lamenting the loss of Americans. Something doesn't smell right.

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we punish a mass murderer by bombing the very people he used to murder

ummmm......did he used to kill terrorists? Let's see, I'm a soldier, have I killed or help kill any innocents lately, ummmm, nope.

Have I helped stop killings, car bombings, and arms dealing? Yeah. Hmmm. Don't remember wading through a sea of the blood of women and children. Maybe I was sleepkilling again. Oh well........

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P.S. When you criticize what we do in Iraq, you criticize me, and the people I work with. Not acting and allowing others to die in mass quantities to take no risks, and to keep your hands clean, avoid the problem is the act of a moral coward.

Innocents die, I admit that, but we go to great extremes to save life wherever possible, even at the cost of our own. American soldiers are not kids, not innocents, blindly following orders with no idea of the risks involved. We make the choice, if some of us die, we die helping others.

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Myrrander, you are the reason why I hate civilians. You have absolutely no foresight. All you believe is the propaganda. You believe the President lied. Shame on you. If you only had a brain. Try this. I hate you and when I get a chance I'll beat your brains in. Now, are you going to wait for me to swing, or will you punch me right in my nose and make me go running home with my head in my hands?
I lament the loss of Iraqis. The graves found were conceived and dug under the instruction of a murderer. I also lament the loss of our soldiers and every other country's soldiers on our side of this fight. Yours was not a lament, Myrrander, yours was a selfish complaint. You want to call Arlington Cemetary a "mass grave". You have absolutely no right to do so. You sicken me. Your gutless statements only serve to fuel the divisiveness of this nation.
You better check the average age of soldiers serving in the military. You may be surprised. i joined at 17. The guys (and girls) I served with were all about the same age. So don't give me that B.S.

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Well you know Spc NS some people have been there in their dreams or through television.

While others like you have been there in person.

Am I supposed to take the word of someone who has not been there over someone who has? How about we let the soldiers over there right now talk their peace and I think Lee would know the thoughts of a lot of soldiers who are going over there, along with our (JU Community) in-house Army/Navy/Marines/Air Force who have been over there.

So, who is right? The soldier in (or has been to) Iraq or the civilian in the United States?

As for myself, I will always side with the soldier over the civilian and I am willing to suffer torture eternal for it!

- Former US Army - Active Duty: SPC Stebbins
"Grimollow Xe!" Motto of the US Army Grimantry

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When you criticize what we do in Iraq, you criticize me, and the people I work with. Not acting and allowing others to die in mass quantities to take no risks, and to keep your hands clean, avoid the problem is the act of a moral coward.

I have to disagree with that. I don't think we should be policing the world, and while our soldiers have accomplished some great things in Iraq, it doesn't change the fact, in my mind, that the war in Iraq is wrong. Soldiers don't make the policy. It's not their fault. I have no criticisms for you or your service to our country . . . I feel gratitude that you are willing to do the work and make the sacrifices for the benefit of myself and my children. I DO have criticism for the man calling the shots.

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You have some valid point, Tex. Soldiers are not policemen. That being said, we do have a responsibility to clean up the country and train the country's militia to be self sufficient. There are books written on war, but I've yet to read of a war that was textbook perfect. I do not understand how any human being, possessed with a functioning brain can believe a war that removed a man who massacred his own country men and women and children on a whim is wrong. Do you have no sense of responsibility to your fellow man? Are you that self absorbed as to not care about life?
My only criticism of the progression of the war is that we have not doused these insurgents in pig's blood and levelled the mosques these cowards hide in before they can blow up any more innocents.

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I do not understand how any human being, possessed with a functioning brain can believe a war that removed a man who massacred his own country men and women and children on a whim is wrong. Do you have no sense of responsibility to your fellow man? Are you that self absorbed as to not care about life?

Wow. Kinda harsh considering that you don't know me . . .

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I can still judge by the words you write.

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Actually, you know me from a couple paragraphs on this thread. Far from comprehensive understanding of my heart and my motivations. To answer your questions . . .

I do not understand how any human being, possessed with a functioning brain can believe a war that removed a man who massacred his own country men and women and children on a whim is wrong.

I think it is good that Saddam is gone, but look at the cost. How do we decide when to intercede? There are atrocities being committed all over the world, and we do not have the capability to resolve them all. Maybe I am selfish, but I believe in putting the US first.

Do you have no sense of responsibility to your fellow man?

Yes I do. Do I need to provide anecdotes to prove this to you or would you like to take my word?

Are you that self absorbed as to not care about life?

Can you be more specific with that question? Who's life do you not think I care about?

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