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d3adz0mbie
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October 12, 2004 5:37:57 PM from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Over the past few months I've seen the Democrats cry foul everytime President Bush or Vice President Cheney talk about an attack on our homeland, and it's time someone put this into perspecitive. Let's look at why the American public SHOULD be afraid, and what the most important issue of this election really is: Biochemical or nuclear attack within the borders of the United States of America.

Consider this scenario: Militant jihadists aligned with any of the multiple anti-American terror cells (Al-Queda is not the only one) decides that it is time to once again strike America. Unable to acquire nuclear fissele materials, they are able to acquire RICIN in a minute protected capsule delivery. Once they have the hundreds of thousands of tiny ricin capsules, patience and careful planning allow this deadly poison to be smuggled into the USA, perhaps into the hands of an established agent, with a long standing public retail store that allows access to the public.

Using chat boards, forums or even blogs (ack!), the terror cell contacts are activated nationwide. Perhaps a group of ten, both local and abroad, make travel plans to go on vacation with their family to the same city as the business is located in. All of these people look and act like normal, established US citizens. While they are there, they visit the store and make a purchase of a specified item, perhaps a fake cell phone or PDA or maybe even an article of clothing. Hidden inside such normal wares would be the encapsuated ricin, now being driven to different areas across the country. Tens of thousands of capsules could be hidden in such a small, personal item. And nobody would give a second glance to someone with a hollow cell phone or iPod.

This is where it gets scary. These average citizens have all taken jobs at food distribution & packaging plants. Coca Cola, Pepsi, Frito Lay (chip dips) and others only see these people as good, hardworking employees. Some may be specialists, some may merely work on the packaging line. Either way, ricin would be easy enough to smuggle in and distribute into these mass packaged foods.

Tens of thousands across the country would die.

Another scenario: The same terrorist cell has been able to acquire nuclear fissele material in the form of a 'suitcase bomb', sold onto the black market by a rogue ex-Soviet officer in the 90's (you know, back when these guys weren't getting paid and had to sell of military equipment to make a living). This scenario, the terrorists are once again patient, masking the radiation through heavy encasement and transporting the package to Mexico through illegal shipping means.

Once in Mexico, it is only a matter of patience to deliver this suitcase under the US/ Mexico border, using a series of established tunnels along the Texas border. A quick truck drive to a rented warehouse, the package is moved to a Uhaul truck, which then goes on the road to New York. Stopping only for gas, the Uhaul hits New York in under 48 hours.

Millions would die, New York state and much of the eastern USA would be uninhabitable.

In this last scenario, the terrorist forego the cost and hassle of acquiring nuclear fissle material and make a home made bomb, similar to what was used by Tim McVeigh. Except this time, they package it in a small private jet on a small private airfield somewhere in the remote Northeast. Their target? Indian Point nuclear reactor outside of New York.

Millions would die, New York state and much of the eastern USA would be uninhabitable.
And there are many, many more very real scenarios lurking in the minds of people that take no greater joy than to slaughter us.

Are you scared yet? You should be. This election has no greater issue than a WMD attack on American soil. The next time you hear John Kerry say the Republicans are using scare tactics to win votes, instead you need to ask why he isn't addressing a very serious concern about the future of US citizens. It's not fear mongering, it's our new reality.
Why are Democrats afraid to confront it?

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d3adz0mbie
Silver_and_Jade_Tears
Join Date 09/2004
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Reply #1 October 12, 2004 5:45:56 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
You should be in the FBI... they need more imaginitive thinkers in their circles... esp. since most of them don't think at all...
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Alex Gottschalk
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Reply #2 October 12, 2004 6:24:01 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Wow, well I really hope this doesn't happen. I live in NJ, so I would get killed. Damn! That's why our Homeland Secuity is scewed up. Montana gets what $70 or something dollars per person! New York gets only a few. I was really scared about the Newark/ New York scare this summer. So I think NY, Ohio and other big states need more money per person than Montana.



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sunwukong
Join Date 08/2003
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Reply #3 October 12, 2004 7:05:59 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
One point: all of the latest cases of Ricin being used against Americans have been by other, disgruntled Americans.

Are you seeing proportional improvements in security against the domestic terrorist?
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d3adz0mbie
Deference
Join Date 04/2004
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Reply #4 October 12, 2004 7:06:45 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Wow, well I really hope this doesn't happen. I live in NJ, so I would get killed. Damn! That's why our Homeland Secuity is scewed up. Montana gets what $70 or something dollars per person! New York gets only a few.


Well, at least we know Wyoming is safe with all the security dollars alloted to them...
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d3adz0mbie
CrispE
Join Date 05/2003
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Reply #5 October 12, 2004 7:48:45 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
d3adzOmbie:

The scenario you present (and most of the ones I've looked at over the past 3 years) rely on a complete revamping of the concept of what security means in a free country. As someone who travels to Canada quite often I can tell you that anyone who really wanted to get a weapon across the border would have no trouble doing so. Someone who wanted to ship a bomb into a port for transport across the U.S. would have no trouble doing so. Someone who wanted to assemble a truckload of explosives would have no trouble doing so. Someone who wanted to put explosives on a train would have no trouble doing so.

But you have one thing askew. Bush is not a Democrat. All of these vulnerabilities are here now. Security is not a political issue.

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d3adz0mbie
cactoblasta
Join Date 04/2004
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Reply #6 October 12, 2004 7:58:39 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Overall I agree with your statement - it requires only planning and patience to launch a probably successful terrorist attack against the US. But without extremely draconian measures (which probably still would be insufficient due to technical and technological limitations) there is no realistic way of guaranteeing that such attacks would be unsuccessful. Unfortunately when it comes to violent crime, it is near impossible for the police to prevent it unless they are either lucky or extremely well-informed. With a beat containing over 6 billion people global intelligence agencies will have a great deal of difficulty stopping such threats, although if they manage to break one link they'll probably be able to wrap up the others.

To the best of my knowledge the US lacks the technology to remotely prevent someone from exploding a nuke or biochemical weapon without relying on such weapons themselves. That noone has succeeded yet is probably more due to luck than anything else. The sad fact is though that although it would kill millions the chances of such an act affecting US policy is nearly nil, so realistically these attacks would be for absolutely nothing. But then again it's not always possible to rely on the intelligence of terrorists.
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Abanamore
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Reply #7 October 12, 2004 9:13:00 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
This will be the last of my itermittent posts as I will get so IP banned for this.

Dear America,

The reason why 9/11 happened is because of America's support for Israel.

Don't take my word for it; take the word of the guy who actually planned 911 (Mohammed Rugback). He clearly states that his personal motive for masterminding 9/11 was because (like rougly 1 billion Muslims) he was pissed off about how America has supported Israel in the Palestinian conflict.

Are we clear on this? The reason why 9/11 happened is because of America's support for Israel.

Need more proof, a meta-reason? Who exactly is this Mohammed Rugback? No one seems to dispute he is member of Al Quada. So he likely got his orders from Bin Laden, if not money and a fatwah.

Ah, yes. The fatwah. Do you know why Bin Laden wants to fly planes into your buildings? Bin Laden offered the following provocations in his fatwah:

1. America's support for Israel (billion in weapons and pure cash) in the Palestinian confilct.
2. American military bases in the 'Muslim Holy Land" of Saudi Arabia.
3. Thousands of lives lost in the Iraq embargo.

More evidence that 3,000 people died on 9/11...because of America's support of Israel, not to mention various bullshit and sundry skullduggery Americans are pulling all over the Middle East. By the way, Ariel Sharon is a terrorist in the purest sense of the word (google it), not to mention a bloodthirsty Asshole. An Israeli official admitted last week that they're not even pretending to adhere to the roadmap to peace anymore, they're gonna do what the fuck they want. And they're going to do it with American weapons and money. As for America's other biggest ally in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia, good news! They're holding they're first-ever kinda-sorta elections...er, soon. Bad news: women can't vote (or drive, work, or go to school without their husband's permission - hey security moms, how you digging that?). So America is in bed with some nasty folk in the Middle East and frankly hasn't done right over there.

Now, having said all of that, what do you suppose would be the best way to ensure New York City doesn't get nuked back to the stone age?

a) Elect Bush, invade more Muslim countries. Especially nuclear armed Iran, with their new missles that can reach Europe. What could possibly go wrong?
Continue supporting the Saudi dicatorship and the Israeli Terrorist/Prime Minister Areil Sharon. There's no way any of those hundreds of missing Russian nuclear warheads could've fallen into the hands of a group of oil and heroin rich Muslims.
c) Er...that's it.

Howsabout none of the above? Elect Kerry. Or vote Badnarik. But don't vote Bush. He has violated the trust of the American people. He lied to you and he lied to my Prime Minister when he asked us to invade Iraq because of Saddam's WMD; we told him to stuff it.

That's the great thing about being Canadian. We do good in the world and we are *always* on the right side, that's why no one is flying planes into the CN Tower. We didn't join in Vietnam and we knew Iraq was another bullshit war. True story: A Canadian got abducted in Iraq by Al Quaeda the other day. Scott Taylor, a former soldier who now is publisher of a military magazine. He was beaten and threatened with death for a few days, but was released with no 'hostaging' or deal making. He was told that he was the first westerner ever released by Al Quaeda, likely because he was Canadian. So when we had our e

Getting back to Bush. In addition to lying his way into war, he's done a shitty job waging the war. The majority of Afghanistan and Iraq are no-go zones, and the coaliton forces are confined to a few major cities. The rest of his foreign policy, not the least of which the Middle East portfolio, has been a well documented disaster. In poll after poll more people on this planet identify George Bush as the biggest threat to world peace than anyone else.

The best and smartest thing America can do to prevent another major terrorist attack is STOP PISSING OFF EVERYONE ON THE PLANET. Take away the motive for a terrorist attack (spare me the 'appeasement' bullshit - peace is not appeasement) and the likelihood of one occuring drops dramatically.

Bush has failed and he must go.


Onward and Upward,
David St. Hubbins





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d3adz0mbie
IPlural
Join Date 11/2001
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Reply #8 October 12, 2004 9:29:47 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
fear...

mindless fear is always a good political tool, sooo, welcome to the machine, Tool...
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Grim Xiozan
Join Date 08/2004
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Reply #9 October 12, 2004 9:34:01 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Funny we, the U.S., give as much money to the Israelis as we do the Palestinians, hmm guess some people don't like money?

- Grim X
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Alex Gottschalk
Join Date 10/2004
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Reply #10 October 12, 2004 9:40:17 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
How Dare you David St. Hubbins- called our support for Israel- our greatest ally in the Mid-East and in the top top-5 in the world, the cause of 9/11. You are such a SOB. I'm a Jew and a supporter of Israel, so don't PISS me off with your stupid remark!A supporter of ISRAEL!
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d3adz0mbie
Evorg
Join Date 12/2003
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Reply #11 October 12, 2004 10:54:59 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Interesting article

But I think the key word is scenario.

There are thousands of different scenarios one can use in an unconventional warfare. This is very difficult to defend against. One has to defend against the scenarios that intelligence assessments have determined is a direct or likely threat. Be flexible to a continuing, changing threat, and take the war to the enemy.

The populace should be informed of threats and know what to do, but not driven to fear. Fear will only do the work for the enemy.

Security cannot be affected by emotion or indifference.
It's not a task that I envy the people that have to do it.
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d3adz0mbie
IPlural
Join Date 11/2001
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Reply #12 October 12, 2004 10:57:25 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I guess the office who shot and killed the 13year old girl and then emptied his pistol before dumping a clip from an assault weapon into her dead body is a grand example of something to make one go HM, Or a 10 year old girl shot through a window of her class room in the head, also.

I support those or Israel and Palestine that are sick of holding up their dead children as proot that the destruction is right...

Suport what you like, but throwing it around as a must follow to others is not ignorant, but if you want to get deeper into it. Totally against everything that our soliders have fought, killed and died for as citizen soliders.
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CrispE
Join Date 05/2003
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Reply #13 October 12, 2004 11:02:34 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
David St. Hubbins:

Not to be too confusing but what about the Air India bombing? I think that qualifies as a terrorist attack (although not Al Qaeda). The truth is that there is more than one reason for terrorism. Ask Tim McVeigh.... Well, not in this life, of course. And the Arar issue with CSIS?

We all have terrorism issues. The thing is, you either go to horrific lengths to stop it or accept that the possibility of an "event" will always be there.
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Myrrander
Join Date 09/2004
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Reply #14 October 13, 2004 11:38:05 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
blah...

Bush wants to build more nukes himself. Talk about a madman with the bomb.
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d3adz0mbie
RedneckHunter
Join Date 02/2004
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Reply #15 October 13, 2004 11:39:11 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums


The Truth Does Hurt.
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mgosh
Join Date 01/2004
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Reply #16 October 13, 2004 12:52:11 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
David so your recommendation of appeasement and allowing the terrorists victory over Isreal would somehow equal security of the United States then you are more nieve then I thought. This would encourage terrorism as they would see that they can affect policy. Look in Iraq and see the increasing amount of kidnappings and beheadings. Once you set policy as to negotiate with terrorists, you will encourage them to continually attack the U.S.
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T_Bone4Justice
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Reply #17 October 13, 2004 12:56:37 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
d3adz0mbie, we are not "afraid" of legitimate discussions on the threats of terrorism nor do we stick our proverbial heads in the sand regarding the real dangers posed by terrorists and/or al Qaeda. What we oppose are the blatant and/or inferred fear mongering tactics by Bush/Cheney in this campaign to get voters scared shitless of voting for anyone other than themselves. Now don't get me wrong, I know that the Dems have their own standard fear tactics to shore up votes, but it just seems to me that using terrorism as a scare tactic against the backdrop of 9/11 takes this fear mongering to a whole new level. And when criticizing the President and his policies is characterized as "treason" or "unpatriotic" I think that has taken things so far over the line, it constitutes a concerted effort to silence free speech and political dissent which is the very essence of our democracy. Lastly, just because we criticize the administration's policies on Iraq, terrorism, (etc...), doesn't mean we don't take the threat of terrorism seriously, to the contrary, what we fear is that Bush's policies have not done ENOUGH in terms of domestic security while at the same time embracing foreign policies that have done nothing but embolden the recruitment terrorists and the spread of terrorist neworks. Please don't confuse legitimate criticism with complacency. FYI I just posted an article today entitled "Iraq War Has Made World More Dangerous" where I make a pretty sharp critique of the Iraq war but I do so to illustrate that it was a bad policy decision that made us LESS safe and MORE vulnerable to the types of attacks you just wrote about in your article.
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Myrrander
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Reply #18 October 13, 2004 1:05:22 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
you know, we could go on all day with "what if" scenarios. what if a meteor the size of texas struck the earth? what if the queen of england decided she wanted the "colonies" back? what if india and pakistan launched nukes at each other? what if, what if, what if. Here's one I like...what if George Bush had listened to Bill Clinton and Richard Clarke and actually paid attention to al-Qaeda before September 11?

Cheers.
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d3adz0mbie
sandy2
Join Date 08/2004
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Reply #19 October 13, 2004 2:28:39 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Wow. Are you trying to scare the hell out of us? Guess what we have in this country. We have this thing called intelligence. We even had intelligence of 9/11. Don't you think, that if any of these possibilities were viable, that instead of crashing a few planes and killing "only" a few thousands, they would have used these methods to kill millions? Yes. It is not viable to crash an airplane into a nuclear reactor. The USA has looked into this, and we have fighter jets ready to scramble, intersect and if needed shoot down aircraft which come within a certain distance of a nuclear reactor or go off course. We do need to protect our borders better. Going in to Canada, (unless you are of foreign origin), is no hassle at all. We should have each car checked for radiation, and we should also have random biological searches for biological agents (at least 1 in 10 need to be searched). What we need to do is listen to our intelligence, not scare the population into a panic, and act responsibly in the event of an attack. It is not easy to prevent an attack, but responding appropriately is the best solution. If we had shot down the planes on 9/11 a number of innocent people would have died, a sad but worthy price to save the lives of the thousands that died.
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Myrrander
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Reply #20 October 13, 2004 2:57:06 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I think Dick Cheney is the real author of this article.
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d3adz0mbie
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Reply #21 October 13, 2004 5:07:31 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Sandy2: Actually, 3 seperate nuclear safety groups have accessed the threat to Indian Point nuclear facility as EXTREME. It was included in the first areas to have a no fly zone established on 09/11/01 because of its high vulnerability. IN FACT, the hijacked airplane that crashed into the north tower of the WTC on 09/11 used the Hudson valley as a navigation point, flying directly past (read: within seconds of) Indian Point. If the 09/11 terrorists had not been so focused on the WTC they could have EASILY made the Eastern coast of the US uninhabitable for the next 100+ years killing millions of New Yorkers and making New York state akin to the Chernobyl region.

All it would have taken was a tilt of the flight path and about 10 seconds of flight to crash straight into Indian Point. We were a few breaths away from a holocaust.

The real danger of Indian Point is not just the reactor cores on site, but the 30 years of spent fuel rods (all higly radioactive) stored on site near the reactors. These are kept in swimming pools filled with heavy water. These swimming pools are sheltered in warehouses no stronger than a standard manufacturing facility. In other words, they meet local code requirements, but arent designed to withstand a bomb or a plane crash.

BTW, the average response time of a military fighter for the Hudson Valley is 7 minutes. Average time to divert a jetliner from established flight paths to Indian Point is less than 2 minutes. Scared yet? Im not, I dont live on the East coast.

Im not fear mongering here, Im just laying out the reality of the situation with facts. Why Indian Point was taken off the no fly zone list (while other, non critical areas have been left on the list) by the TVA controller is anyones guess, but I suspect it might have something to do with its recent purchase by Entergy.

Myrrander: Thanks for the compliment.
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sandy2
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Reply #22 October 13, 2004 5:18:31 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I hope you see the problem with anyone attempting a radioactive strike. If anyone tried that. ANYONE. We would bomb the hell out of any country that had ANYTHING that had to do with it, using wmd's if needed.
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d3adz0mbie
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Reply #23 October 13, 2004 5:37:09 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Sandy2:: (I wish my quote button would work) And to be perfectly respectful of your reply, I would hope that you could see the huge hole in your arguement: most terrorists do not align themselves with a country or nationality, but with a political or religious ideal.

Al-Queda for example, is comprised of extremists from at least 15 different countries (actually more, but I only found 15 countries in my quick search). What of someone like John Walker, who is a US citizen but sympathizes with the radical teachings of Jyhad? Would we then bomb California? What if they were from Canada? Canada has a large Muslim population, and even though Muslims, like Christians, believe in the tenants of peace, in every large group you will find fringe elements, even in Canada. Do we nuke Quebec if a fringe element diverts a private jet into Indian Point?
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sandy2
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Reply #24 October 13, 2004 6:52:29 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Al-Queda for example, is comprised of extremists from at least 15 different countries (actually more, but I only found 15 countries in my quick search). What of someone like John Walker, who is a US citizen but sympathizes with the radical teachings of Jyhad? Would we then bomb California? What if they were from Canada? Canada has a large Muslim population, and even though Muslims, like Christians, believe in the tenants of peace, in every large group you will find fringe elements, even in Canada. Do we nuke Quebec if a fringe element diverts a private jet into Indian Point?


Um.. if they have sympathy for the Jyhad, we would probbably go to war with the middle east and saudia arabia and Iran and Iraq and other Jihad strong holds.
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d3adz0mbie
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Reply #25 October 13, 2004 7:44:30 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Sandy2: My bad, I mispelled JIHAD. If I hadn't I'm certain you would have geared your reply to my reference properly in that jihad is a centuries-old Arabic term translated literally as "holy war" or "struggle." Sympathy for jihadists would mean those that aid muslim extremists in their war on America, and is used as a general term for the current conflict between civilization and terrorism.

Sorry for the mistake, I should probably use MSWord before posting.
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