Fire first, ask questions later or keep letting bad folks...

Opening up the kangaroo court for the readers to take sides and tell me which approach is 'right' or 'wrong' here.  Please offer your verdict (opinion) in the commentary and feel free to take offense with the approach that others may have for this subject.[more]

Before we start, lets all remember that in the U.S.A. the approach is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.  That's a pretty basic expectation, or perhaps it's a 'right' that is guaranteed by the constitution or the bill of rights, but you get the idea -- it's IMPORTANT that everyone is treated as if they are innocent until they have been proven guilty by a court of law.  I think most people would chime in say this approach is invaluable and precious and that everyone should enjoy this protection under the law, but then again perhaps there are times when that approach shouldn't be used, no?

For example, see the following article (from The Washington Times, originally from Associated Press): Reinstatement of fired guards sought

With this important information to consider:

CUMBERLAND, Md. — Two state lawmakers from Western Maryland have asked the state's prison chief to reinstate 23 fired correctional officers until investigations into charges of brutality against inmates at two prisons are complete.

The officers — 15 at the medium-security Roxbury Correctional Institution near Hagerstown and eight at the maximum-security North Branch Correctional Institution near Cumberland — were fired this month. None of the unidentified officers has been charged pending the outcome of criminal investigations led by the Maryland State Police.

Prison officials have defended their actions, saying that when correctional officers are accused of wrongdoing, state law requires the agency to take any disciplinary action within 30 days after learning of the misconduct. Any officers subsequently exonerated can be reinstated with no loss of salary or benefits — as two other Roxbury officers were, several days after they were fired.

End of quote

In most cases, I would expect that people would take the approach that until there has been an investigation and charges have been proven an individual shouldn't lose their job over claims of something bad having been done by the individual.  Most cases.  But... in a case where the public trust is violated, and where there are charges of brutality and abuse of power, would you perhaps change your mind and prefer the approach that the law apparently calls for (despite the concerns and complaints of the accused in this instance, and the lawmakers that are complaining on their behalf)?

If we're talking about a normal workplace and a fairly typical job, would you want the rights of employee protected and their job to be safe for them until there was proof something against company rules or against the law had been done?  I'd betting yet for that, but you might think otherwise (feel free to say so below in the comments area).  If we're talking about a case where someone is brutalizing someone else though, do we protect the supposed perpetrator or do we let the rights of the victim overrule those rights and instead err on the side of caution by not letting the accused perpetrator go back to work where they could inflict more damage or harm?

Please, tell me what you think.  I do want to know and would enjoy seing what other's opinions are on the matter.

4,523 views 9 replies
Reply #1 Top
There must be other actions that could be taken, suspension or limited duty or like that, until the investigation is complete. Seems that firing them and then saying, "Well, if we are wrong, we'll give'em their money back." is a cavalier method. Who pays the bills in the meantime? These cases can drag on for a long time. On the other side of the bars, if I were an inmate who had snitched on the guards, I would not like to see them coming on the midnight shift a few days later. I know, can't have your cake and eat it too, but there are always more than one facet to a gem like this.
Reply #2 Top

There must be other actions that could be taken, suspension or limited duty or like that, until the investigation is complete. Seems that firing them and then saying, "Well, if we are wrong, we'll give'em their money back." is a cavalier method. Who pays the bills in the meantime? These cases can drag on for a long time.
End of quote

I'll buy that for a bit, but then follow-up with this potentially silly concern or thought - is it possible that by having the penalty be a firing first instead of a suspension (with potential re-instatement and no loss of pay if no issue is found) that the message that is loud and clear to these employees that are serving the public is that there is an incredibly expensive price to be paid for any abuse of power or abuse of those you are supposed to be guarding (in this particular case)?

What I'm suggesting is that perhaps that lawmakers that passed the current laws assume that if the persons that get these jobs know that there's basically a zero tolerance policy in effect wouldn't that mean that the job holders should always be on there best behavior??

On the other side of the bars, if I were an inmate who had snitched on the guards, I would not like to see them coming on the midnight shift a few days later.
End of quote

That's definitely the other side of the coin.  If you've been abused by these guards and they get suspended or just walk back in the next day (or simply a few days later) and return to business as normal wouldn't you be pretty concerned for your own health and safety?

 

I have little sympathy for people that commit crimes and are sent to jail (assuming they are guilty), but I'm smart enough to know that there may be innocent individuals in jails, and regardless of whether someone is guilty or not, they don't deserve to be abused and brutalized.

Reply #3 Top
lets all remember that in the U.S.A. the approach is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty
End of quote


This is true in a court of law. But it is not true when it comes to private life. Although the state is the employer in this case, it is still not a state case (at this point only disciplinary), but private.

I dont think they should be fired for allegations. But I also do not think anything unconstitutional or illegal was done with the actions,hasty as they may be.

Reply #4 Top
Dr. Guy is right. Innocent until proven guilty is a standard for legal matters, not employer-employee relations. I agree with BFD that they could be placed on restricted duty until the matter is resolved, but the fact is they are under no obligation to do so.

Reply #5 Top
Dr. Guy is right. Innocent until proven guilty is a standard for legal matters, not employer-employee relations.
According to the highlighted article, there is a State Police investigation pending...therefore..."I" before "G" until after "C". It isn't an employee relations problem.

that there's basically a zero tolerance policy in effect
The problem with a zero tolerance policy is that there is no room for evaluation. In the Colorful State in which I live, we had a school shoot'em up a few years ago that got EVERYBODY'S attention and was immediately followed up by law makers and policy makers and trouble makers who insisted we needed stauncher gun laws and stronger inforcement and blah blah blah . Almost all the schools in the state began with their "Zero Tolerance" policies. No weapons of any description could be allowed on school grounds. Which led to dozens of STUPID actions by administrators all over the state, expulsions for having a nail file in your purse, a hunting knife in a tool box in your trunk, kids being arrested for schoolyard threats, cops called for squirt guns (don't tell me how real they look...until Glock produces a semi-transparent red plastic 9mm) and all other manner of rediculousness. I do not advocate making life any easier for prisoners, but I do not advocate the abuse of them either, whether they are guilty or innocent.

Besides, most police departments suspend officers during investigations, don't they? Why are guards treated any different?

Reply #6 Top
What's the difference between suspended without pay and then unsuspended, and fired without pay and then rehired?
Reply #7 Top
What's the difference between suspended without pay and then unsuspended, and fired without pay and then rehired?
End of quote


Permanent record.
Reply #8 Top
And, in the case of a state employee, pension. If they are suspended, the suspension period counts as service. If they are fired, it doesn't.
Reply #9 Top

Brutality??? They should be given extra incentive pay for that. Prison in most cases is just college for criminals. They should have been suspended with pay, until the investigation was completed. It fair to the guard, and would probably speed up the investigation since they are paying someone to stay home and watch Oprah.