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Draginol
Draginol
Join Date 03/2001
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Kerry in a bunny suit or sperm?

Sometimes it's better not to make a fuss...

July 30, 2004 1:00:16 PM from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

While visiting NASA, John Kerry posed for the cameras and Nasa put the results up.

Kerry, who apparently found the pictures unflattering, cried foul. And he cried foul loud enough to gain the attention of the national media and bloggers who turned a picture that nobody would likely have seen into one everyone is going to see.

Sometimes, it's better to let sleeping dogs lie.

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Draginol
web_poet
Join Date 07/2004
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Reply #1 July 30, 2004 1:04:22 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Thats hilarious Draginol,I like it!
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Draginol
bakerstreet
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #2 July 30, 2004 1:20:50 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
People also say he looks like the Oompa Loompas in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. I think he looks more like Mike TeeVee.
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Draginol
Don Bemont
Join Date 06/2003
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Reply #3 July 30, 2004 1:36:49 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Well, let me tote up myJohn Kerry scorecard:

The plusses:
* his environmental beliefs
* his plan to take the money away from a high income tax cut and use it to extend health care benefits

The minuses:
* he looks silly in a NASA suit
* he is silly about complaining regarding an unflattering picture

Geez guys, this is such a close call, I just can't decide whether the plusses or minuses carry more weight.

Seriously: this forum being dominated by outspoken conservatives, I came here today to read intelligent answers to John Kerry's proposals last night. I'll admit, I was afraid that I might instead find dumb distractions instead -- broad characterizations of a negative sort, voting record references meant to be misleading... But you've got me here, I am blown away by the effectiveness of this counter attack.
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Draginol
Draginol
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Reply #4 July 30, 2004 1:47:40 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

No Don, your problem is that you came expecting to read a bunch of liberals agreeing with your own views.

As I go through the forums, I see lots of people on both sides.  I'd argue that of the people who regularly post, most are liberal.

In fact, looking at the top 20 users, about half are left of center and the other half about right of center.

I don't, btw, consider it a "plus" to confiscate money from one group to pay for the health care for another.

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Draginol
bakerstreet
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Reply #5 July 30, 2004 1:49:47 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I find the forums much, much less hospitable to conservatives than to liberals these days. I think it you'd have to be blind to look at this site and pretend conservatives have a free ride, or are even in the majority.
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Draginol
Draginol
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Reply #6 July 30, 2004 1:56:01 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

I want to add one other thing: The only reason why JU isn't overwhelmingly full of left of center people is that some of the more prolofic posters in the past have either gotten banned or asked to leave because of their intolerance for other points of view to the point where they would use heavy amounts of profanity and make personal attacks from thread to thread against those they disagree with.

One tactic I have noticed from some left of center people here is a tendancy to try to intimdiate or harrass those they oppose into silence. 

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Draginol
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Join Date 02/2004
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Reply #7 July 30, 2004 2:01:17 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
The only reason why JU isn't overwhelmingly full of left of center people is that some of the more prolofic posters in the past have either gotten banned or asked to leave because of their intolerance for other points of view to the point where they would use heavy amounts of profanity and make personal attacks from thread to thread against those they disagree with.


Sorry to be off topic--But Draginol--haven't only 4 people been banned? And with the exception of one (and maybe two, the first was before my time), it would be hard to argue that they were overtly political. I don't necessarily see that the site leans one way or another--but I'd have to say that I've seen hostility and anger from both sides.

Back on topic: I think the picture is funny--I would vote for sperm!
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Draginol
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Reply #8 July 30, 2004 2:01:53 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Bakerstreet: Indeed.  I find there there to be a lot less tolerance of conservative ideals by liberals than vice versa.  The amount of Bush trashing that occurs on JU is pretty major.

I also find that liberals, though when confronted, sometimes demand their opponents silenced.  That the mere presence of conservatives is enough to drive them away. 

That said, I think that the conservatives in the blogsphere, generlaly do better because they tend to stick to it.  I give credit to Wisefawn because while I strongly disagree with her views, she at least sticks to her work -- though she's removed a lot of her articles which blunts her effectiveness.

But popularity online depends on staying with it over a long period of time.  Left of center bloggers either flame out (Mikimouse for instance) or just fade away (Wahkonta).

Props to Stevenadalous who has built a solid library of articles. I wish there were more writers left of center like him.

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Draginol
shadesofgrey
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Reply #9 July 30, 2004 2:02:10 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I would vote for sperm


That could be taken the wrong way! I mean that I vote that he looks like a sperm more than he looks like a bunny!
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Draginol
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Reply #10 July 30, 2004 2:04:21 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Shades - more recently a couple of people did get banned.

Mikimouse (I was on vacation when that happened so I am not sure what happened) and David St. Hubbins who is about to get unbanned to see if he can get along better.  But both were prolofic left of center writers but both, IMO, showed an amazing level of intolerance towards views that didn't agree with their own.

Maybe because conservatives are used to being the minority in these kinds of situations that we're used to having to tolerate views that differ from our own.  Most political communities tend to be left of center whereas most lone blog sites tend to be conservative.

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Draginol
shadesofgrey
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Reply #11 July 30, 2004 2:07:46 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Mikimouse (I was on vacation when that happened so I am not sure what happened) and David St. Hubbins who is about to get unbanned to see if he can get along better. But both were prolofic left of center writers but both, IMO, showed an amazing level of intolerance towards views that didn't agree with their own.


Sometimes I feel like you run a play school class rather than a blogsite. How do you put up with us?

That said, I'm glad you do.

I get equally annoyed by both sides of the political spectrum around here--does that make me a centrist?
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Draginol
bakerstreet
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Reply #12 July 30, 2004 2:14:01 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Mikimouse has no business being unbanned and honestly I think it would be the last straw for me here. The environment is acidic enough without welcoming people who post derisive, insulting articles aimed at ridiculing the beheaded vicitms of terrorism... LINK. I don't think I could bear to fequent the same site as that waste of skin.
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Draginol
CS Guy
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Reply #13 July 30, 2004 2:14:05 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I would vote for sperm!

I love it when a girl says that.
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historyishere
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Reply #14 July 30, 2004 2:28:59 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
I was always under the impression(perhaps wrongly) that the conservative side has always been a bit more tightly-knit than the left is...
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Reply #15 July 30, 2004 2:43:45 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
he conservative side has always been a bit more tightly-knit than the left


Yes, but the left makes up for it by being more tightly wound....
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Reply #16 July 30, 2004 2:55:57 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I think it seems like there are more conservatives than there really are here because Draginol is rather prolific and rights many conservative articles.

I think liberals are more tightly-knit but conservatives are more politically disciplined.
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Reply #17 July 30, 2004 2:57:39 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
But at the same time, I think the left is more apt to attack its own too.
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Reply #18 July 30, 2004 3:18:47 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I think it seems like there are more conservatives than there really are here because Draginol is rather prolific and rights many conservative articles.

Really? I guess that may be true, but it seems to me he writes more libertarian articles. But I guess if you consider the world in the dual light of liberal/conservative then his writing would seem conservative.
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Draginol
bakerstreet
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Reply #19 July 30, 2004 3:35:56 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
If you look at it that way, I think the average conservative here is a lot more moderate than the average liberal, as well.

If you look at "party lines", i think you'll find that most anti-bush folks here fall way left of the Democratic party, and yet most conservatives fall a bit to the left of the Republican mainstream. Don, imho, when he starts talking about the "outspoken conservatives", is counting a lot of moderates in there, and probably a few Democrats. They aren't "conservative", they are just more conservative than him, a state he seems to villify...

Brad has tried to make this point over and over, and no one seems to listen. The fact is that the most outspoken on the left are way, way left, and try to pretend that they are somehow demonstrative. They aren't, though, and they would consider most of their Democrat peers to be conservative.

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Draginol
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Reply #20 July 30, 2004 4:08:46 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Bakerstreet: Mikimouse isn't coming back.  I said David St. Hubbins who is restricted to his own blog.
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Draginol
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Reply #21 July 30, 2004 4:10:43 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Ah, sorry, didn' t mean to seem pushy. I have acquired a knee-jerk reaction to mikimouse. lol, i'll read better next time, thought you meant both for some reason.
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Draginol
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Reply #22 July 30, 2004 10:35:19 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Libertarian? The defintion I've stolen and found works well for libertarians is "A republican on pot." I don't think Brad comes across that way one smidgeon. He's very sound, with practical experience and history lessons behind his ideas rather than starstruck idealism.

Brad -- excellent job on the pic -- been hearing of it on the radio, but not seen the photo yet. I think Kerry is the pawn of too many people right now because actually allowing him to speak for himself, stating his beliefs on issues, would alienate more than half the country. I think he's rather tired of this. The sperm suit would be a blow to anyone's ego, especially after not being allowed to take a personal stance on issues or speak about them, including the controversial ones he so dearly loves.

It really does look like he's swimming up a uterus... some great graphic work could be done to this...
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perhaps_the_only_liberal_here
Join Date 07/2004
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Reply #23 August 1, 2004 1:14:54 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
About the photo, it was not supposed to be released, and the pic of Kerry was portrayed in a similar light as the one of Dukakus when he was running against Bush Sr-- talking points to ridicule a candidate not on an action that he's taken, but on the most superficial way possible. I admit, certain pictures of Bush Jr. are laughable as well, and those that stoop to the level of trying to politically influence a person with a picture in a less than commander-in-chief light are on every part of the political spectrum. Of course, manipulating the media is nothing new (perhaps a future article ranting about Fox or Clear Channel? )

Also, about the conservative/ liberal remarks, I came here through a professor's site and at the time, the top articles seemed to all be written by those who have traditionally conservative viewpoints. I'm not saying that anyone is extreme, but from perusing different articles/blogs, I believed that I would be in the minority as someone left of center. For myself (as you can probably guess from the name that I chose), I have more traditionally liberal values and viewpoints. Given so many different issues not covered, I am certain that there is no black and white (tree-huggin' liberals/ trigger-happy conservatives) as far as views go, and that we can peacefully coexist as long as everyone is respectful and has a more mature argumentative style than using the system of "cheap shots" that plague prominent (conservative/liberal) commentators. That's why this community fascinates me.
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Draginol
Draginol
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Reply #24 August 1, 2004 8:56:55 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I don't really have a lot of control over what the most popular articles are. Hoewver, the MOSt popular articles on JU tend to be techie articles, not politics.
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Draginol
Don Bemont
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Reply #25 August 2, 2004 4:21:48 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
No Don, your problem is that you came expecting to read a bunch of liberals agreeing with your own views.
Pretty ugly statement, Brad... The old "I know so much better than you that I even know your own mind." It also happens that you are wrong. I came here to hear conservative reaction. I had already heard a ton of liberal reaction from the people around me, and I wanted the other side. I sought out and found conservative answers elsewhere.

The amount of Bush trashing that occurs on JU is pretty major.
There is a difference between stupid mockery and serious criticism of the direction that a leader wants to take the country. I'll readily admit that liberals are trashing Bush when they incessently refer to slips of his tongue -- the end of Moore's movie comes to mind. Same with all references to Bush's intelligence, IQ, school record, etc. I am WAY less convinced that there is more of that, on this forum, than there is of trashing Kerry. Personally, I'm not a fan of it in either direction, especially when it seems to be calculated to be part of a political debate.... As in: "Gee, my opponent gave a speech last night and I haven't figured out yet where he was wrong, but maybe if I come up with mockery that will serve as well as an anwer to his speech."

I suspect that when you tote up the Bush bashing, though, you are including the likes of calling Bush a liar on his reasons for going to Iraq, in the same category as a conservative mocking Kerry's wife or trying to get mileage out of an unflattering pic of Kerry. If so, then you and I part company.

I also find that liberals, though when confronted, sometimes demand their opponents silenced. That the mere presence of conservatives is enough to drive them away.
A questionable statement if you take into account the state of conservative talk radio where the standard method of dealing with liberals is to shout them down and cut them off... But if you mean this site specifically, I don't know. Doesn't seem that way to me, but we are all sensitive to the obvious idiots on the other side and deaf to them when they are on our own side.

I don't, btw, consider it a "plus" to confiscate money from one group to pay for the health care for another.
Now this would make a real discussion, rather than a partisan rant of who can deliver the more poignant mockery.

I disagree because, as I see it:
* It is not in the best interests of our country to allow citizens' health to deteriorate needlessly, and this is especially true of the young.
* If this is confiscation of money, then it is also confiscating our money to use it to fight wars, pave roads, enforce the laws, run our national parks, bail out failing corporations, and buy from politically well connected corporations. It is a matter of prorities, not amatter of theft of money. Bottom line: the most successful country in world can afford to rank much higher vs. the rest of the world in terms of caring for people's health
* Even if you were to isolate this one reason for taxation, and weigh the rights involved, we have two very real rights in conflict: the right to what I have earned vs. someone else's right to live... "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" refers to both -- but it refers more explicity to the right to live.
* Further, we need to remember that many of those who find their families in the worst position healthcare-wise are those whose jobs are lost due to the economic upheavals of a free market. (The problem is severe enough that even conservative presidents cave in and do some protectionist things, because the impact on real people can be so bad.) As i see it, free trade has enormous benefits, but one of the costs to a society is that you do then need to look after the human needs of those who get caught in the crossfire. It's okay -- you still come out way ahead.
*Finally, I would never join those who mock President Bush for following his religious beliefs, and I don't think we can ever separate religion from politics -- we can only avoid creating a state religion. Religious belief will always be the underpinning of our belief systems. And my understanding of Jesus is that He would never have favored others' economic rights over the health needs of people... If you find this last to be an unfair argument, then ignore it, but it is my personal viewpoint.
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