When Honesty Is the Forbidden Policy

ThinkAloud

Join Date 04/2004

When Honesty Is the Forbidden Policy

Deceit ... of Citizens and Foreigners Alike

My niece who is an Assistant Professor of Political Studies has been working, since June 2007, on a paper for publication on "Deceit as a Tool in US Foreign Policy" . Last week she asked me to review her draft before she submits it for publication. I did and pointed out few points to her. One of these points was this: "not telling the whole truth to a foreign leader is not a deceit" especially if that leader does not support the US Government's policies regardless of whether those policies are right or wrong.

The US Government is not responsible for making sure that foreign leaders know everything they should know before they make their own decisions. The US is not a custodian of the world. The US Government is responsible for pursuing the best interest of its own Citizens not the interests of other countries. If the two coincide then great, if they don’t ... then we tell them what we think is best for us and that is not deceit if what we say is true. If it is not the whole truth ... then it is up to them to fill the gaps ... it is good enough that we didn’t lie. They can ask question and we should answer honestly.... but if they don’t ask we have no responsibility to educate them....

Or Do we?

That is what got me started on this article. .... Then things got worse in my mind.

This is not only happening in foreign policy ... it is happening in Domestic policies too ... here at home from our Government and the think tanks which guide and control its domestic policies.

The Foreign component deserves a separate article and there are many reasons to adopt a not-the-whole-truth policy with foreign leaders. But this article is about using the same attitude with the Citizens who elected the US government to Govern, supposedly, in their name.

The question is not only addressed to the elected officials but to every one involved in shaping or supporting these policies.

Is it legitimate to portray certain proposed ideas in a way that deceives the public and get them to agree to something that is really not what they think it is?

When dismantling the Social Security program is presented as "giving the people control over their own money" while in fact it will destroy the program and leaves great number of people with no (or vastly reduced) income after retirement …. Is that legitimate?

Every one knew that the minority who know a little about finance will be ok and may be do a little better while the majority who don’t know much about financial planning or how things work in the financial markets will be either worse off or lose their shirts in the process which negates the whole idea behind the program being a "Security" not an investment. It is an income insurance not an investment vehicle. There is the 401 K and IRA and other programs for investment ..... The SS program is not one of them.

But it was portrayed to the citizens as a better way of investment..... Was that legitimate?

When Medical Expenses savings accounts are portrayed as more economical for the individual than paying for health insurance which in fact it is for the minority who can afford paying for expensive private treatments while the majority will face a financial disaster if they need a serious operation or treatment..... Is that legitimate?

When Universal Health Care is portrayed as socialized medicine while in fact it is more efficient and less expensive for all than the current system which only benefits the Insurance Companies..... Is that legitimate?

When "getting the government off your back" is portrayed as less taxes while in fact it makes almost everyone pays much more in property taxes, college education, local services for maintaining roads and school buildings, ..Etc than what they save from Fed Taxes ... Is that legitimate?

When a program is intended to increase emissions of air pollutants and is called "Clear Skies" ... is that legitimate?

When a program results in mass exodus of manufacturing jobs from the country to foreign lands and portrayed as giving Businesses the freedom to operate where it is more efficient.... is that legitimate?

When deregulation of the communication industry results in more filth and violence on public airwaves and portrayed as less interference by government ... is that legitimate?

The examples are endless but that is enough to make the point and illustrates the dishonesty of the policies and the policy makers and supporters.

The first thing that comes to mind is this: if all that was legitimate why was it portrayed otherwise?

If destroying the SS program is the intent and they are convinced that it is the right policy ... why be dishonest about it?

If You want to save money for businesses by not giving employees health benefits and you think that is really better for businesses and employees alike..... Why lie about it?

If you want to relax the air pollution standards to save money for businesses why not say so?

No reason to keep asking the same question again and again....

Is it acceptable policy or politics to lie in order to achieve your goal?

Every citizen needs to think about that and be careful in swallowing what he/she is being fed. Many times it is dangerous for your health.

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Rather, it's municipal, state and federal government over spending, waste and fraud ...and entitlement programs are a big part of it.

Oh so true.

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Dont get your panties in a twist just because not everyone accepts those talking points without thinking

What talking points Doc? I dont even hear anyone talking about that anywhere from the Left or the Right. That is why i wrote this article. You and I can argue till the cows come home but the facts on the ground face us every day on the ground. Manufacturing Jobs migrated already and God knows how can we get them back. if you think this is a talking point .. then i really cant help but say you are not looking. Yes many investments are still being done here, but that is not the question .... what kind of jobs these investment provide .... mostly service jobs with wages less than 50% of manufacturing jobs.

If we bury our heads in the sand we are not going to see anything .... like we doing now regarding farm jobs. Because the fuss about illegal workers ,,,, farmers start moving their operation across the border ..... if we are not careful and solve this problem, soon we will be getting our food from other countries like we doing now with our industrial needs. ..... Is that the way to go Doc?

All for the sake of making more money or because we oppose many foreign workers?

Money is not everything Doc. producing our industrial needs and our food at home is much more important and vital to our own security than making few billions more in profits.

I am just surprised that you are not recognizing the enormity of the loss of manufacturing jobs and basic industries to other countries. It is very serious Doc. That is not a talking points of any one and THAT makes me upset even more. Do you hear anyone talking about it? I wish it was a talking point of someone.

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mostly service jobs with wages less than 50% of manufacturing jobs.

you just answered your own question.

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What talking points Doc?

The facts are not what you were listing. You were listing the talking points. The Jobs going over seas is a fact. the reasons why (and your spin on the blame) are the talking points since none of that is Fact, just conjecture.

But I will add, you like to jump around. I appologize for the long post. It should have been an article unto itself, but the problem with a long post on that is you jumble it to estract a debating point that was not made or even insinuated. It would be best to take each issue as a response onto itself and that is why I have not commented on every one of your points as that would be way to long.

I am just surprised that you are not recognizing the enormity of the loss of manufacturing jobs and basic industries to other countries.

Recognize? I recognize global warming. What I do not recognize is that man is causing it. Likewise I recognize that manufacturing has gone over seas. What I do not recognize, and perhaps will get into an article on why I do not, is your reasoning. The fact is that this nation was founded as an agrarian one. Why are you not lamenting the loss of farming jobs? before we were industrialized, we were agrarian. Yet when we "lost" farm jobs, the nation did not collapse and people found other jobs - just as they have done today. Our Unemployment stands today at 5% (just bumped too), so that means all those "jobs" lost to overseas must have been accompanied by a mass migration according to your logic in order to keep the unemployment rate so low.

It has not, now has it? So perhaps while the fact that manufacturing jobs have gone overseas, your opinion on the why and also on the impending doom is not supported by reality.

No where have I denied the fact that manufacturing jobs have gone over seas. I fail to see how you can leap to such an erroneous conclusion.

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Why are you not lamenting the loss of farming jobs

i did Doc. didnt you read it?

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It's not Bush's tax cuts....they are helping keeping the economy rolling.Rather, it's municipal, state and federal government over spending, waste and fraud ...and entitlement programs are a big part of it.

it is superfecial tax cuts for most people Lula. and waste and fraud is not going to stop as a result of tax cuts.

Fed and State politicians alike waste money regardless. In fact making people pay more in state and local taxes give these local politicians more to waste from. In washington, the tax cuts doesnt affect their waste at all ...... it is still big enough for them to waste as before the tax cuts.

Stopping the waste and corruption is what we have to do and talk about .... when we do that ... Tax cuts and even elimination will be natural and easy to do.

the Gov wastes money and the politicians squander more money than any program including Defense spending.

If we concentrate on that we will be in much much better state than we are now.

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i should revise my statement about honesty and the rock hitting new York.

if i felt that more people would survive through the panic then i would tell them to get out of town now.

however if i felt that more people would survive by not knowing i would not say anything.

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Our Unemployment stands today at 5% (just bumped too), so that means all those "jobs" lost to overseas must have been accompanied by a mass migration according to your logic in order to keep the unemployment rate so low.

you missing the point completely. Yes industrial jobs were replaced by other types of jobs. But what type did we get to replace the lost ones? all service and low payment jobs. In addition, we lost our industial base. That is dangerous and you cant put a cost on it.

you are the one who diverted the discussion to this issue. My point was the Reagan policy resulted in the loss of industrial jobs and base not whether it was good or bad. but that was never mentioned when the policy was introduced. that is my main point.

You still saying that loss is not due to those policies and say it just "conjecture" even after i showed you there were no other reasons for that loss. It is not labor cost as most people believe .... it is the tax policy ..... it is not even the environmental regulations ..... you may not believe it but it is a hard and documented fact. It is not possible for me to show the Excell documents that actually document that proof. it is business documents and should not be disclosed.

what is more, and i dont know if you are aware of that or not, those plants we built overseas face major problems in getting some of their materials that were available here. getting them from here to there is a major problem and wastes time and money .... all in all you see that the only benefit of doing bus. over there is the Tax policy.

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Actually, TA, with the impending retirement of the baby boomers, we face a pretty severe labor crisis in this country. Because we've aborted the next generation of workers, and because of increasing demands for health care professionals, we will soon be hard pressed to provide the labor for the jobs we HAVE.

I have very mixed feelings on outsourcing. On one hand, we're all citizens of the world and people in other countries need jobs, too. On the other hand, there are problems for some of the very reasons you cite.

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Thaink ALoud writes:

If You want to save money for businesses by not giving employees health benefits and you think that is really better for businesses and employees alike..... Why lie about it?

Businesses should be able to decide whether or not they want to offer employee health benefits...but that's no longer the case in many states.

Some governors, with and without state legislators approval, are imposing instructions to business owners to provide them.

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i did Doc. didnt you read it?

Only in relation to the illegal issue, not in relation (since the jobs were lost a century ago, and the illegal issue is only about 30-40 years old) to the comparison. You again jumped the track. I was talking apples and you are now talking oranges.

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If you want to get things fixed in government, start with local and state governments, where the vast majority of things happen in the first place.

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In addition, we lost our industial base. That is dangerous and you cant put a cost on it.

We lost our agrain base too, right? No, the number of jobs is not the indicator of either, but in some circles x=y all the time.

But what type did we get to replace the lost ones? all service and low payment jobs.

Now, prove that. Service, much to the chagrin of the liars, is not only McDonalds. It is also IT, IS, Health, and basically anything that does not grow or produce a tangible product. Are you saying that I am now a low paid person? hardly. But that is what they want us to believe, when in fact the truth is the jobs that replaced it are just as well paying, just not making steel plows of 100 years ago.

And the low paying service jobs? They are called opportunity. And job entry. Kind of like what I did back 40 years ago when I entered the job market and manufacturing was dying, just not being shipped overseas (automation was reducing it then, and now too).

BTW: as this is getting tiresome, but you keep saying "I say" when I have not said much other than to offer conjecture, challenge what "you say", and clarify some things probably written in haste and definitely in error. As I stated before, I am not here to debate the causes of change (and that is what it is) as that was not your premise. It was calling people liars for stating things you have a different opinion on.

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Doc, i really thought you are better than that. Are we in a court here? do you prove every word or fact you use? this is not a discussion. You are set in your mind ....

You talking about IT .... tell me about it. here is what is happening Doc

In the China project .... the Only IT done here .... is what we called High-value .... like yours , the rest in Philippines .... same with engineering and other deciplines in general

so the high value IT, Engineering, Accounting, Studies are done here ,,,,,,, that you , me and few others.

Drafting, 3D-simulations, .... Control systems details .... etc are not done here.

Doc.... if you think what is going on is ok ... fine .... i dont and i know why i dont and i am telling evryone that .... if you choose to ignore it till the proof hits us all in the face ... then so be it. I did what i think i can.

I noticed that everything you dont agree with and cant answer all you do is assume that it is false and ask for a proof. That is not debate doc ..... that is what talking points really are.

The facts are facing you and you refuse to accept the reasons, actual reasons for them. You need proofs ..... wait till you get them.

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Businesses should be able to decide whether or not they want to offer employee health benefits...but that's no longer the case in many states.

in order not to divert the discussion away from the point of the article (and your statement above is not on point) let me answer you this way: so why didnt they say that straight up? I already said that. I said "why lie about it ?", you even quoted it. Do you have an answer to that: why did they lie about it? That is my whole point.

Lying about it says a lot ..... and so was lying about every item i listed .... which by the way a very small sample.

They knew that what they proposing wss not right or better ..... they HAD to lie to deceit people .... sadly they suceeded TWICE.

Fortunately ... people are catching up with the lies ..... as they say you cant fool all the people all the time.

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don't even get me started on Emergency Management since you abviously have no idea what you are talking about.

what is going on here? can someone tell me please?

the fact that things are not managed properly is NOT a reason to scrap them out and just give up and go home.

Fix it ... fix it .... fix it .......

The problem in what you guys are saying, however, is that starving the Gov, or taking it out of action IS NOT FIXING.....

Unless you are sayaing that "These services are not required" then any talk about how bad things are dont justify killing it.

And if killing it is the solution .... well JUST SAY SO. DO NOT LIE ABOUT IT.

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How did I lie? When did I say kill it?

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You do not have to prove any word of fact. You do have to prove all statements that are not, and that one is not. So prove it. I will give you a hint. It cant be done because it is a lie. One of the ones that you have bought into. Here's another hint. Check out the Bureau of Labor Statistics site.

As for IT, it is going great. I have a job and more work than I can handle. Need a job? What certifications do you have? I can use the extra help.

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Need a job? What certifications do you have? I can use the extra help.

IT people work for me Doc, i manage the project's team including IT. You can't afford me anyway

And like i said so many times before .... it is not me or my job that i am talking about.

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When did I say kill it?

Did you propose these policies Ted? the lying and the intent to kill it was done by the policy makers ... not you. ok?

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Think Aloud posts:

The question is not only addressed to the elected officials but to every one involved in shaping or supporting these policies.

Is it legitimate to portray certain proposed ideas in a way that deceives the public and get them to agree to something that is really not what they think it is?

If You want to save money for businesses by not giving employees health benefits and you think that is really better for businesses and employees alike..... Why lie about it?

Lula posts:

Businesses should be able to decide whether or not they want to offer employee health benefits...but that's no longer the case in many states.

Actually, I was agreeing with your premise to a degree. What I'm saying, in the case of government mandating that businesses provide health insurance benefits smacks of government arrogantly over-imposing on its citizens, usually done under the radar, btw, but not necessarily of lying per se.

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usually done under the radar, btw, but not necessarily of lying per se.

WOW Lula !!!!

I never thought you would say something like that

Jesus will never approve of what you just said Lula. I will tell him about you

He was a straight-up guy. he would never say putting things under the radar is not "lying per se".

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lets see Jesus healed lots of people and told them to go and tell no one. i think that would be under the radar.

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Excuse me ThinkAloud, for some really insane reason, I thought the fact you wrote that as a response to the quote you cited meant that you were talking to me. ;~D

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Lula posts:

I never thought you would say something like that

Jesus will never approve of what you just said Lula. I will tell him about you

He was a straight-up guy. he would never say putting things under the radar is not "lying per se".

Danielost posts:

lets see Jesus healed lots of people and told them to go and tell no one. i think that would be under the radar.

I tend to agree. Good one, Danielost.

ThinkAloud,

Don't you know there is a difference between government officials deciding policy "under the radar" as in back room agreements and actually lying to the public. For example, it is common practice for town, state and even federal officials to hold "workshop" meetings in which they decide "under the radar" (beforehand) how they will make policy. At public meetings, they announce and vote in what they had already decided "under the radar". This is what I meant by them not lying per se.

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