What Liberals Fear » Forum Post by Leauki

Interesting list to say the least.

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It is interesting.... as a liberal, I would not mind seeing a few of those....and I doubt the possibility of others.

IG

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1. Not afraid of that
2. Would actually like to start seeing some of those.
3. If they want to abandon their heritage, that's their problem. Shoving our western culture down their throat is wrong, though.
4. I'm a Christian, Jews are cool, capitalism got me this computer I'm typing on.

5. Equality's fine by me.
6. Well, I don't particularly like conservative views...some are okay.

So I only fear maybe 1/2 of number 6...then again I'm probably more moderate than I am liberal.

~Zoo

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Zoologist03,

1. Very good. But many liberals would rather see the Jewish state disbanded and the Jews expelled to Europe or America (as if liberals would welcome them there).

2. The computer you type on, probably. Everything you use in your daily life. The freedom you have, the wealth, all of it are American successes. Don't be greedy for many more.

3. That's the point. Their heritage sucks. They have traditional beliefs that make them think that sleeping with a virgin cures AIDS and that tribes must fight each other. Shoving our western culture down their throat is right. Why would it be wrong?

4. Many liberals hate capitalism.

5. Very good.

6. 1-5 are conservative views.

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Shoving our western culture down their throat is right. Why would it be wrong?

Because it is not for us to decide how to police the world. That is ethnocentrism at its worst. This is the same attitude Euro-Americans used when destroying Native American culture. "Civilizing the Savage" and that's exactly what you're proposing.

I can't stand people that want to "Americanize" the world. Our culture doesn't apply everywhere. Just because there are a few beliefs you don't agree with doesn't mean we should come in and demolish their entire culture. We can try to educate them about the reality of AIDs and are taking steps to do that. As for tribal warfare...that's always been around, and is not likely going to stop anytime soon. The US can't come in like and tell them to play nice, they won't listen. American arrogance and egotism severely pisses me off. We can try to help them come to agreements between themselves, but other than that we shouldn't be forcing our culture onto them.

The reason for the genocides in Africa is pretty much a result of Europeans who divided up Africa into random political boundries. Grouping tribes that hate each other in the same country was just asking for all hell to break loose.

~Zoo

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Because it is not for us to decide how to police the world. That is ethnocentrism at its worst. This is the same attitude Euro-Americans used when destroying Native American culture.

You cannot just say "ethnocentrism" and pretend that it is an argument. You will have to explain it.

I believe that all races are equal but that some cultures are worth more than others. The latter follows from the former. If all races are equal, yet some nations can build aircraft carriers while others believe in fairy tales, it follows that culture makes the difference.

And there is nothing wrong with everyone adopting a superior culture. For me, that is the opposite of ethnocentrism. I totally reject the view that it has anything to do with ethnicity or that western culture is in any way related to the ethnicity of the people living in the western world. It is not a "white" culture, it is a superior culture.

Native American culture was backwards. Some tribes didn't even farm yet. Live expectancy was lower than in European societies and the culture supported fewer individuals. It was GOOD that "Native American" culture was largely replaced. It would have been BETTER if the Indians had adopted the culture faster and if the whites had not believed that Indians were not capable of doing so and should hence be killed or moved west.

I can't stand people that want to "Americanize" the world. Our culture doesn't apply everywhere.

I love those people. I was born in West-Berlin. It was Americanisation that protected us from the Soviet Union and made it possible for us to enjoy what we have now. Without Americanisation, Germany would still celebrate the Prussian military culture (which was fine but worse than the British and American culture) or even worse, the German version of fascism. In fact, in Europe our stupid native culture which resulted in the fascism of Italy and Germany that cost the world so dearly, was totally replaced by a new and superior culture brought by the British and Americans.

As for tribal warfare...that's always been around, and is not likely going to stop anytime soon. The US can't come in like and tell them to play nice, they won't listen.

Have you looked at a map of Europe lately? We were big in tribal warfare. Germany alone consisted of hundreds of states (really!) that were constantly fighting each other. When they united, they fought everybody else. And the rest of Europe kept fighting as well. Until the US came and told us to play nice.

We listened.

My aforementioned belief of the equality of all races tells me that the same must be possible for Africans (and Arabs etc.). If you disagree, explain the difference between the races.

The reason for the genocides in Africa is pretty much a result of Europeans who divided up Africa into random political boundries. Grouping tribes that hate each other in the same country was just asking for all hell to break loose.

In contrast to widely held belief people do not really need a reason to commit genocide. They just hate other tribes. Your ethnocentrism shows when you claim that these things were caused by Europe.

Germany's borders were artificially and somewhat randomly defined first by Napoleon and then by the victors of World War I. But I wouldn't blame anybody but the Germans for the genocide they perpetrated. It's a common error to blame not the perpetrator but somebody else.

If you make statements about Africa as if they were universal truths, you better check whether it is. If you say that artificial borders cause genocide, better check whether a) there might be another reason and

whether genocide happened wherever borders were artificially made. You'll be surprised.

The US itself is divided into 50 states, many of which have rather random borders (Colorado's borders are NOT natural borders). But somehow Americans manage not to kill each other, despite the fact that you have a good hundred or so different nationalities living in those states (Germans, Jews, Poles, English, Irish etc.). You must be doing something right and the Africans must be doing something wrong.

Tribes that hate each other will fight each other whether there is a border between them or not. Why would a border stop them? It never stopped anybody before. Why would it in Africa?

The reason for genocide in Africa is the same as the reason for genocide in Europe: some Africans and some Europeans are evil and hateful. The reason the US lived without a genocide on its soil for over a hundred years (if you want to count the Indian wars as genocide), is a superior culture. Europe is adopting the culture, most of Africa is not yet.

You say it's a bad thing to adopt American culture.

I say that I have seen American culture and the original continental European culture (the same one you blame for the genocide in Africa, no less), and I thank G-d that World War II _forced_ American culture onto us. I am extremely thankful for the very thing you consider wrong. But that is because I have considered what the alternative was.

American culture applies everywhere.

American culture is not dependent on a certain locality (like some pagan cults were) and American culture is not dependent on a certain race (because race does not imply a culture). Hence American culture applies everywhere. It cannot be different, unless my assumption about races is wrong and race does matter.

American arrogance and egotism... are you American? If so, do you even notice how arrogant you sound when you reject the very culture that makes your life so much better than almost everybody else's in the world?

People from all over the world are trying to move to and live in America. And you live there and hate the culture. THAT is arrogance. Maybe there ought to be an exchange programme. I am sure there are people in many countries with cultures you prefer that would gladly switch citizenship with you.

Unfortunately, most of these countries have cultures that produce very little wealth. For example, many African and Arab countries exclude women from the economy, thereby making sure that about 50% of the talented people that could do certain jobs are not available to do them and are replaced by less talented people of the "right sex". Countries like Nazi Germany and Saudi Arabia didn't/don't allow Jews to be citizens, costing them dearly in educated manpower. Iran doesn't allow minorities to hold certain government posts, again depriving the country of talent.

The list of mistakes made in certain cultures goes on and on. America doesn't make those same mistakes. And America doesn't make any worse mistakes either. THAT is the greatness that is American culture.

No, my friend, it has nothing to do with "ethnocentrism" to believe that American culture applies everywhere. It is the very oppositive of ethnocentrism to believe that culture and race are not related.

But you have just told me that the very European culture that you blamed for the genocide in Africa should not have been replaced by an American culture forced on Europe. And that doesn't make a lot of sense.

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ethnocentrism

Ethnocentrism is the belief that the culture someone is from is the "right" one and everyone else is "wrong" on some level.

I see you support a uniform American culture (Apple pie, democracy, baseball, HDTV, Christian majority) around the globe and I'm not going to bother arguing.

My point is that I don't believe one way of life is superior to another...it's all about perspective.

~Zoo

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Zoo,

I know what ethnocentrism is. I was asking you how ethnocetrism makes an argument here. You failed to explain that. You failed to explain why ethnocentrism is wrong and you failed to explain why it would apply. It's the typical leftist "Nicaragua" strategy. Say one word and you win, you don't have to explain it, not when you are a liberal and trying to make a point.

I didn't say anything about a "uniform American culture". But I must admit that I prefer apple pie, democracy, Baseball, HDTV, and a Christian majority in Germany over the indigineous culture. I playd Baseball in the American barracks in Berlin during the occupation. Guess what, I am STILL glad American culture was forced on us.

Your point remains unexplained. I explain why I believe that certain cultures are better than others. You just say that you don't believe that and hence the opposite is wrong. You have not explained anything.

"Perspective" is a horrible word to use in the face of cultural differences like stoning women vs equal rights for the sexes.

The reason you don't bother to argue is simply, as far as I can tell, that you are not used to arguing. You have not made a single point or argument above, you merely stated your opinion and demand that it be fact. It's not that easy.

May I ask, since Europeans are to blame for African genocide because they created random borders trapping two tribes in one country, who is to blame for the Shoah?

The Americans came to Europe and created a border between Poland and Germany, artificially. A few years later a genocide happened. Who is to blame? The Americans?

And after World War II Germany's borders were again changed, artificially and randomly, not based on tribal connections at all. However, no genocide happened. But you said that genocide is the result of such actions. How come it didn't happen?

No, Zoo, genocide is the fault of those perpetrating it, and nobody else's. It is NOT too much to ask for people not to kill each other.

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Some cultures are better than others. It is a racist belief that some races are not capable of embracing or compatible with a superior culture.

Racist beliefs are part of an inferior culture. It is NOT a matter of perspective.

The belief that race makes no difference is BETTER than the belief that it does. That is also not a matter of perspective.

The belief that equal rights for men and women are better than gender apartheid is another feature of a superior culture. It is a matter of perspective only for those who don't understand how bloody important equality is.

The belief that slavery is wrong is a feature of a superior culture. It is not a matter of perspective. All men are created equal. It doesn't say "except those". But in some cultures it does. Those cultures are inferior. And it is still not a matter of perspective.

Stoning women for adultery is a feature of the cultures of some peoples on this planet. Their cultures are also inferior to a culture in which women are not stoned for adultery. In England, as Sir Humphrey says, women get stoned first, and then commit adultery. That's a joke, but a good one, and it is BETTER than the other version. And it is not a matter of perspective, unless you are Sir Humphrey.

German culture of the 1930s and 1940s was to kill as many "inferior" races (there are your races) as possible to replace them with superior (racially) Germans. That German culture was evil and inferior to other cultures that do not feature a demand to kill other people and do contain beliefs of racial superiority. The Shoah was not a matter of perspective. The Shoah was the result of an evil and inferior culture, which thank G-d has been replaced by a new German culture with heavy American influences forced into it.

Japan raped China until American culture was forced on the Japanese. Current Japanese culture, with its heavy American influences and its love for Baseball (and possibly apple pie) is BETTER than the previous Japanese culture. It is a matter of perspective for the amoral observer, not for the Chinese victims.

Do the world a favour, Zoo. Do never ever use the word "perspective" again when you talk about the differences between superior and inferior cultures.

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Hmmm...

I support America.. With my life right now because I'm in service.

I don't deny that some of our policies are wrong... but hell we're ALLOWED to say that... and that above all means more to me than anything. Some of the countries I've been to have told me about how they can't even disagree with their rulers else that means gistopo (sp?) action...

1) I don't fear it one Lick...
2) Definately don't fear it, what the hell are you trying to say, liberals aren't patriotic?
3) Could care less really... believe what you want to believe I don't give a shit either way...
4) I believe you are just being hate spreading mongrel now... Opinion is one thing but saying we fear that? Fuck you..
5) Well I do admit that we push a lot of crazy legislations about inequality, but I DO NOT FEAR EQUALITY.
6) And OH MY F'ING GOD.. You just want points... WHO wants the team they are rooting for to lose? ANyone will be dissapointed when the team they are rooting for doesn't win... Doesn't mean we FEAR it...

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I support America.. With my life right now because I'm in service.

Very good.

I don't deny that some of our policies are wrong... but hell we're ALLOWED to say that... and that above all means more to me than anything. Some of the countries I've been to have told me about how they can't even disagree with their rulers else that means gistopo (sp?) action...

Gestapo.

But that's a matter of perspective, surely. Perhaps not being allowed to speak your mind is just as good as not being tortured to death for being a communist?

1) I don't fear it one Lick...
2) Definately don't fear it, what the hell are you trying to say, liberals aren't patriotic?
3) Could care less really... believe what you want to believe I don't give a shit either way...
4) I believe you are just being hate spreading mongrel now... Opinion is one thing but saying we fear that? Fuck you..
5) Well I do admit that we push a lot of crazy legislations about inequality, but I DO NOT FEAR EQUALITY.
6) And OH MY F'ING GOD.. You just want points... WHO doens't like the team they are rooting for to lose? ANyone will be dissapointed when the team they are rooting for doesn't win... Doesn't mean we FEAR it...

The list wasn't about you. Not every liberal fears those things. But some definitely do. It's a list of things liberals fear, it is not a list of things EVERY liberal fears.

I can give you a list of things people in Ireland eat. Fish is among them. But I don't eat fish.

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Fine, I concede...it's really something I don't want to go into, it honestly isn't.

I didn't prepare for this argument and I really don't have the time to do so.

I don't mind people preaching peace to other places...that's for a fundamental good. Making someone abandon their language, dress, religion, food, etc. because someone else deems it so is what I was really getting at. Losing your way of life is traumatic. Taking steps to stop genocide and war is great, I support it...but totally revamping a culture is not necessary for that to happen, and that's my point.

I will admit that I am probably wrong on the African genocide issue...I have not researched the subject in the same depth that you have and that will leave my argument fundamentally weak...so I won't keep going.

*sigh* This is why I stick to scientific arguments...at least I'm well versed in the subject.

~Zoo

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Andrew,

It was such a nice saturday evening and then you have to go post a piece of bait like this. What are you fishing for, hmmm?

In saying that all liberals fear the following six things you are painting many people around the globe with one brush-stroke, don't you think that's just a little ridiculous? Saying that all people of a particular political affiliation are afraid of Christianity and Judaism is just a little offensive thank you very much. I was unaware that Jesus subscribed to right wing ideology. I'm sure that Christ was thrilled to see a large gang of anglo saxon gentiles oppress and destroy other cultures in his name. I get it now! All that stuff about turning the other cheek, loving your brother as yourself and the meek inheritting the earth was really secret code for "take what you want and use force on anyone who gets in your way"

I'm also sure that capitalism is another Jesus approved concept. Considering that, you know, quite possibly the only time Christ got angry in the scriptures was when he went into a temple and saw it being used as a place of commerce, clearly a strong indication that he favours free market economics and encourages many mainstream modern churches to do the same!

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The list wasn't about you. Not every liberal fears those things. But some definitely do. It's a list of things liberals fear, it is not a list of things EVERY liberal fears.

And yet the title of this blog is.. "What liberals fear" Not what 'some liberals fear'

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a large gang of anglo saxon gentiles oppress and destroy other cultures in his name

Hey...that's kind of what I was saying.

~Zoo

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cactoblasta

Join Date 04/2004

+48

Yay for artysim!

I've never understood quite how Christians reconcile Jesus' example with warlike ways and genocide either, particularly nowadays when they can actually read.

If anything Jesus' example seems to demand a kind of primitive communalism instead of capitalist nation-states.

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Native American culture was backwards. Some tribes didn't even farm yet. Live expectancy was lower than in European societies and the culture supported fewer individuals. It was GOOD that "Native American" culture was largely replaced. It would have been BETTER if the Indians had adopted the culture faster and if the whites had not believed that Indians were not capable of doing so and should hence be killed or moved west.

Native American culture was not "replaced", it was "genocided"

I love those people. I was born in West-Berlin. It was Americanisation that protected us from the Soviet Union and made it possible for us to enjoy what we have now. Without Americanisation, Germany would still celebrate the Prussian military culture (which was fine but worse than the British and American culture) or even worse, the German version of fascism. In fact, in Europe our stupid native culture which resulted in the fascism of Italy and Germany that cost the world so dearly, was totally replaced by a new and superior culture brought by the British and Americans.

You were born in the focal point of American propaganda during the Cold War, by heaven's sake! Off course you wanted to join those peoples.

You are simply trying to justify what Stardock is simply calling "cultural conquest". As I've seen in a cartoon, "I'll stop being intolerant when these people will stop dressing like freaks and act like me".

You want a 1-culture world, where everybody play baseball/football (not likely, loool), are against abortion, and have a gun-worshiping culture?

Hey.. no, wait. He doesn't want an AMERICAN culture everywhere. He wants a CONSERVATIVE AMERICAN culture. I mean, he doesn't consider the liberals to be "american".

Oh, and I find your points from 1 to 6 pretty pointless, actually. You simply are propaging conservative propaganda that Liberal simply hate the country they live in, hate the jews, etc... Which is kinda.. ehh.. (darn, I've been stroked in another blog because I used that word..) it's stupid reasonning. It's slandering a valid political view.

I mean.. tell me, what is "your" view of the political life that should exist in America? An electoral contest between Conservative and... Conservative?

You know that the Democrat party in the U.S.A. would be considered strongly conservative in a LOT of countries?

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Native American culture was not "replaced", it was "genocided"

so says cikomyr, master of the half-truth.

Yes, it is true that many atrocities were committed against the Native Americans in the United States by our government. It is also true that our history, while bloody, is no more or less so than that of the majority of other nations.

Now, as to the genocidal destruction of the Native American civilizations, we came upon a continent full of people that had been destroying themselves through war and tribal infighting for centuries. Not one civilization was at its apex when colonization of the continent began. While we performed several atrocities, the conflicts between the tribes did more to destroy the Native American than the white man ever did.

But it's nice to stand on a pedestal of moral superiority, isn't it?

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the conflicts between the tribes did more to destroy the Native American than the white man ever did.

Really?...Far as I know they were pretty civil as long as everyone stayed in their own general territory. Some went as far to form their own confederacy. The Haudenosaunee(or Iroquois) for instance were composed of 6 nations in upstate New York. Of course there was fighting, there's always fighting when you get more than one uniform belief structure going. I don't think they were contributing to their own demise...seeing as how they haven't already killed everyone before the Europeans came. There were hundreds of tribes clustered quite closely together, and they weren't at war all the time.

I don't think a planned Euro-American genocide compares with tribal warfare in the least. Warfare implies that people are actually fighting...whereas genocide is a systematic extermination- men, women, and children.

~Zoo

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zoo,

You need to read history BEYOND what is taught in the schools!

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You need to read history BEYOND what is taught in the schools!

Okay, will do. You got a link or a book recommendation?

~Zoo

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

Native American culture was not "replaced", it was "genocided"

How profoundly ignorant. Where were the concentration camps to exterminate them?

We still have native Americans in the United States. There are a lot more native Americans in the United States than there are, say, Jews in Poland or native Tasmanians in Australia.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

I don't think a planned Euro-American genocide compares with tribal warfare in the least.

Can you provide me with the secret pass code to get ahold of the top secret Euro-American genocide plan so I can see how they carried it out?

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Can you provide me with the secret pass code to get ahold of the top secret Euro-American genocide plan so I can see how they carried it out?

Massacres don't seem like genocide to you? Forcefully moving them to tiny plots of land in the west is pretty similar to a concentration camp if you ask me. Not to mention the largest deployment of our military since the Civil War went out west to "watch over" them and arm the white settlers in the area.

~Zoo

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Yes, it is true that many atrocities were committed against the Native Americans in the United States by our government. It is also true that our history, while bloody, is no more or less so than that of the majority of other nations.

Well, native americans were massacred by Spanish, Portuguese, Enlgish, French & American governement. I do not layed the blame solely on the USA - how typical of you to react life this -. But simply because you were one of the last - but most efficient - doesn't make it any less right.

How profoundly ignorant. Where were the concentration camps to exterminate them?
We still have native Americans in the United States. There are a lot more native Americans in the United States than there are, say, Jews in Poland or native Tasmanians in Australia.

There are a lot more alive Jews than there are Native American, a fact that wasn't true before 1492.

Simply constant destroying of their food source, attack from the army, and constant attack from your army was well ennough. You don't need concentration camps to exterminate a kin. Simply killing them slowly, forcing them to move, preventing them from access to their food source, was more than ennough.

The genocide wasn't part of a "final solution" operation, but simply harassing policies that were simply extremely unfair to the indians. Europeans (and americans) wanted land, they moved there, claiming rights they pulled out of their hats, and killed the natives if they didn't complied - or, my gosh, defended themselves! -

Now, I want to know how you conservative are freaking out about 1 line I said, instead of talking about the topic?

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