ThinkAloud

Join Date 04/2004

GOP and US-Misfortunes

Coincidence or By Design

I have been watching from the sidelines for a few weeks now. So many things are happening I can’t help but wonder what is going on. So much nonsense going on I can’t help but wonder where these people are living. In the same universe as the rest of the country?

The more I watch and wonder and go back in time I can’t help but notice a very sad phenomenon. Since early 1980's till now the country, our USA, have suffered several major setbacks and calamities. The list includes: Challenger's disaster, Savings & Loan fiasco, Iran-Contra affair, Successive maintenance -related refinery accidents, First Gulf-War, 9/11 Attacks/war in Afghanistan, Iraq war, Corporate malfeasance epidemic, Katrina-Relief disaster, Columbia disaster, Mine-collapse epidemic, Bridge-collapse/High-way failures epidemic, and now the Sub prime rate/Mortgage problem.

It is really a long list. I may have missed few other calamities. Looking at this list and the presidents in charge at the time the following is very obvious:

From 1981 to 2007 we had 8 years of Democrat's Administration and 19 years of Republican's Administration. All the above calamities occurred during those 19 years of Republican's Administrations. Is that a coincidence or there is an underline cause for that.

Before we can decide which it is, let's examine the root-cause of these problems:

Challenger, Columbia, Katrina-Relief and Bridge-collapse/High-way failures: Gov. Agencies failure in following safety and maintenance rules

Savings & Loan fiasco, Corporate malfeasance epidemic and Sub prime rate/Mortgage problem: Businesses failures in following sound and ethical practices

Successive maintenance -related refinery accidents and Mine-collapse epidemics: Business failure in following safety and maintenance rules

Iran-Contra affair and Iraq war: Foreign policy deceit and lies

First Gulf-War and 9/11 Attacks/war in Afghanistan: Foreign policy and Intelligence failures

Why do Gov. Agencies become incompetent and Bus. follow unsound and unethical practices during GOP administrations?

Is that a coincidence? or is it because GOP Administrations follow their declared and highly admired "Get the Government off our Back" policy?

What is more noticeable is the absence of conservatives’ out-cries about these problems. You would think that those intelligent, thoughtful and patriotic people would care and raise their loud voices and sharpen their biting tongues whenever any of these things happen. But that is not the case. I didn't see anything from the intelligent conservatives regarding the recent problems of mines' collapsing, bridges and high ways failing and lenders reeling.

Are these things normal according to the smart-people's way of thinking?

Does that mean if the simple uneducated fools/idiots come to their senses and let the smart conservative people govern and run the country on a permanent basis this will be the normal mode of operations? i.e. Let things run according to whatever suits the Business Owner and don’t bother Gov. Agencies with responsibilities and competency standards.

If that is not the case, where is the outrage of those intelligent people? Why are they ignoring these major failures on the part of Businesses and Gov. Agencies?

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I'd be more interested to see who proposed the laws that govern all of the stuff you mentioned. Just because a republican sits in the oval office doesn't make existent laws suddenly non-existentent. If people vote a democrat in in 2008, things aren't going to suddenly change because of it.

What congress members voted on what? What was their party affiliation?

I don't know the answer, but the article itself describes someone who is ignorant about how government works. It's not all about the executive.

My opinion is that the vast majority of Americans, at any given time, would have no earthly idea what bills were on the floor nor what they all entailed. If you're going to blame someone, blame them.

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I don't know the answer, but the article itself describes someone who is ignorant about how government works. It's not all about the executive.

Typical smart/intelligent conservative's answer. when confronted with facts confuse the issue and start spinning things around.

If you are smart enough, as you are supposed to, you would know that it is not the laws, it is the implementation of the laws. Moreover, the Democrat's 8-year administration in the middle of this GOP sweep didnt face the same conditions? how come none of that happened during those 8 years?

The congress appoint the incompetent agencies' heads and supervisors? the congress refuse to allocate funds to maintain infrastructures? the congress tell agaencies to turn a blind eye to obvious violatations?

btw, congress was in GOP hands for 13 of the 19 yrs of gop administrations.

you sure know how Gov. works and not ignorant of the facts.

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The Republicans and the Democrats just like to blame each other. The Reps have the facts to show the Dems are responsible, and the Dems have the facts to show the Reps are responsible. Why? Because they're both responsible. Because they don't know how to run a country, only how to run for office.

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Because they're both responsible. Because they don't know how to run a country, only how to run for office.

I partially agree. However, it is noticeable that major troubles happen when there is a GOP in the white house. may be it is just their bad luck. but it is very strange phenomenon. i can't attribute all that to just bad luck.

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Who owned Congress during the years the democrat was in office?

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Island Dog

Join Date 06/2003

+1048

You also left out the first WTC bombing, USS Cole attack, Kobar towers attacks, the miserable attempts at fighting terrorism in the 90's. Who was in charge then, I can't seem to remember?

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Well, it's not his fault. He didn't know the definition of 'is', so he couldn't ask anyone what 'is' happening!

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Who owned Congress during the years the democrat was in office?

You still talking about the congress? the laws were there and they didn't change, congress has nothing to do with implementing existing laws. what is the matter with you? you are supposed to be smart, remember that?

You cant blame Congress , Republicans or Democrats, for the incompetence and mismanagement of ANY president.

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You also left out the first WTC bombing, USS Cole attack, Kobar towers attacks, the miserable attempts at fighting terrorism in the 90's. Who was in charge then, I can't seem to remember?

Also OKC, Ruby Ridge, Waco, Columbine...

The first could have been considered as much a security failure as anything, the next two were directly caused by crappy government policy, the last is an example of improper school security.

But it's mighty nice when we can point out the OTHER party's mistakes, eh? Would be nice if we could catch our OWN!

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Mine-collapse epidemic,

For the record, TA, mines have collapsed in every administration. 24 hour news networks just over sensationalize it.

And frankly, I have not seen ONE other person on JU besides myself who talks about the mine safety issues who has ANY idea what they are talking about. Underground mining is a different world, and unless you've been there, you have no farking idea what you're talking about.

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You also left out the first WTC bombing, USS Cole attack, Kobar towers attacks, the miserable attempts at fighting terrorism in the 90's.

First i am talking about misfortunes which happened at home not abroad.
Second, i am talking about all kinds of misfortunes and not necessarily terror-related ones. But you are correct regarding WTC bombing. Yes Clinton gets the blame for that failure. but the trend is still there.

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Underground mining is a different world, and unless you've been there, you have no farking idea what you're talking about.

you assume a lot. Don't you? i designed and managed major projects inside mines in Wyoming and Overseas Gid. you really dont know whom you talking to. just because i dont talk about what i do doesnt give you the right to assume that i dont know what i am talking about. The same goes for Refinaries btw. What i do and what i know is too important to talk about it here on a blog.

Also, i am not talking about crimes and voilence in general. This is another issue. I am talking about misfortunes due to administrations' policy failures that are not local in nature and have major impact on the country. You didnt see me listing Virginia Tech shooting or other similar incidents.

Oooh, I forgot. I am liberal, accordingly i am ignorant and dont know what i am talking about. yes you are correct. smart/intelligent/know-it-all man.

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you assume a lot. Don't you? i designed and managed major projects inside mines in Wyoming and Overseas Gid.

Then you've seen mine foremen hand out red tags to maintenance personnel and order all equipment red tagged and all stopes fenced off? Do you really expect George W. Bush to accompany MSHA inspectors personally on Air Force One?

I witnessed deliberate coverups by mine managament; coverups only the most nearsighted investigator could have missed. I attempted to report violations to the union, to MSHA, to OSHA, and in one particular case (illegal Mexican workers handling explosives post-9/11) to Dept. of Homeland Security. The failure does not fall on Bush or upon Congressmen, TA, it falls on the people entrusted to actually DO the job.

YES, Bush's administration has failures. But to imply that such failures were absent during Bill Clinton's tenure is to be completely oblivious to the facts.

Since it is apparent that you don't want to discuss here, but only engage in partisan attacks, I'll leave you to your thread. Too bad, TA, you're too intelligent to let partisanship grab hold of you like this.

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You didnt see me listing Virginia Tech shooting or other similar incidents.

Fair enough. But Waco and Ruby Ridge were direct failures of federal administrations directly under Clinton's watch. I'll take Columbine off the list if you take the Minn. Bridge (an incident "local in nature") off the list.

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Let me further clarify, TA. You say the GOP is responsible for gross incompetent and mismanagement. I say you're only HALF right.

How's that?

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Do you really expect George W. Bush to accompany MSHA inspectors personally on Air Force One?

No Gid. But OSHA and MSHA have suffered a lot of personnel cuts (and policy directives to ease things out) and this undermines their effectiveness. that is the problem. Every time anyone says anything about this administration you guys go to Bush personally. do i have to tell you that any president doesnt do anything himself, but he sets the policies and appoints people who do. you are a conservative and supposed to be smart, why do you say these things?

You say the GOP is responsible for gross incompetent and mismanagement. I say you're only HALF right.

That is the whole point. not half of it. if there is any other half, it is that the GOP presidents usually dont care about what is happening to most of the people or the resources of the country.

I am in no way saying that Dem's presidents are perfect or have no failures. It is the obvious fact that the most and wide-spread failures belong to the GOP's presidents.

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Since it is apparent that you don't want to discuss here, but only engage in partisan attacks,

Far from it, i will be glad to discuss any issue, but jumping to conclusions and personal attacks are not my style. I am not liberal in the first place, if that means anything to anyone. but i am also not conservative either. i call it as i see it. i dont generally assume anything or accuse anyone of anything they didnt say. Calling people ignorant and have no idea of what they are talking about is not a good way to discuss anything. is it?

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S**t Happens. The real issue is LEADERSHIP (or the lack of it). We need a President who is able to chart a course that effectively deals with the major issues facing our country and is able to get Congress to enact laws that will accomplish those solutions. That has been lacking to some extent for a long time but especially during the past 7 years! We are ignoring the most important challenges and misallocating our resources to areas that do not resolve our problems. In fact we are creating new PROBLEMS AS WELL AS NOT RESOLVING EXISTING ISSUES!

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Calling people ignorant and have no idea of what they are talking about is not a good way to discuss anything. is it?

I didn't call you ignorant. I DID state that I was tired of people talking about underground mining who had no farking idea what they're talking about. I stand corrected in that you aren't one of those; but think about it, TA...for the most part, do you see my issue on this one?

The deaths from the mine disasters are a result of a system that has simply not enforced laws on the books...and that was long in place before Bush.

You say you're not a Dem. I believe you. Then let's talk about a President that sold us down the river on NAFTA. Let's talk about the fact that EVERY national level politician is bought and sold by corporations, and the people no longer matter.

Yes, TA. Bush sucks. On that we can agree. The problem is, Bush is not running for President in 2008. If you focus your attack solely on Bush, that means Dems will sweep in with vote totals that will make them declare a "mandate" and the country will suffer for it. Diligence means looking for enemies under any uniform they wear.

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The real issue is LEADERSHIP (or the lack of it). We need a President who is able to chart a course that effectively deals with the major issues facing our country and is able to get Congress to enact laws that will accomplish those solutions. That has been lacking to some extent for a long time but especially during the past 7 years! We are ignoring the most important challenges and misallocating our resources to areas that do not resolve our problems. In fact we are creating new PROBLEMS AS WELL AS NOT RESOLVING EXISTING ISSUES!

Can't agree with you more.

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If you focus your attack solely on Bush, that means Dems will sweep in with vote totals that will make them declare a "mandate" and the country will suffer for it.

Comon Gid. Did i even mention Bush? you guys brought him up. i talked about a trend that included 3 other presidents. Doesnt that tell you that you guys are hyper-sensitive about your darling Bush.

whether he is running or not doesnt make any difference. i was talking about the GOP for god's sake. are you fixated on Bush?

the reason i started with Reagan's era is something i dont think any one of you guys remember or even noticed at the time.

Do you know what he said when he came to office? i remember that speech. i was working in the office and have the radio on listening. and he said: We must change this country to "SERVICE" economy. I was shocked. I said to myself " this guy is going to transfer us to a society that depends on others for our goods and materials?" that was the most stupid idea i ever heard.

But sure enough, he gave huge tax breaks for companies who build "new" plants. not fix or expand new ones !!!!!.

the transfer was on. and you tell me NAFTA. if we transfer our manufacturing to other countries, how do you think we can guarantee access to them ? we have to insure no-interference from those countries through regulations or taxes . now you see why NAFTA and GAT were invented? and it all started by a guy the GOP holds as an icon. now all we have are low-level service jobs. The great manufacturing empires died ..... on the hands of the GOP. and you know why? because at the time, UNIONS were really stupid, really astonishingly stupid and over-played their hands. instead of fixing the problem and getting them in check, the GOP/Busin. alliance said to the heck with you guys. we are going out. and they did. no thought was paid to the impact on the country or its future....... if GAT or NAFTA were not there, you think we will get those products as cheap as we get them now? all those countries will impose Export taxes because they know they will still be cheaper and they know we NEED them.

I Hate NFTA and GAT but unless we restore our manufacturing base, we need both .... Badly.

You think a Dem in 1981 would have done that? .... i dont think so.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2420

Wow. I mean, talk about living in glass houses.

How about talking about definitive actions in history. That is, things that a given party explicitly supported:

Slavery - Democrats were the party of slavery.

Undermining the Civil War - During the civil war, northern Democrats unsuccessfully urged an end in the fighting - a two-state solution

The income tax - The Democrats were the ones who we can thank for this.

World War I - Thanks to Wilson, hundreds of thousands of Americans died for no particular reason.

Massive taxation - For decades, the most productive Americans had the vast majority of their earnings taxed away by Democrats

Communism - at best, you can say the Demcorats were far more..sympathetic to Communism than Socialism (Democrats love calling people Nazis because to them, that's an insult but never seem to consider calling someone a Communist an insult).

Segregation - Democrats were the ones in favor of segratation. It was Eisenhower, a Republican, who had to send in troops into Little Rock to enforce integration.

The Vietnam War - if you think the Iraq War is a bad thing, thank the Democrats for getting the US into the biggest and most expensive quagmire ever. Over 60,000 Americans died with nothing to show for it.

Iran - We can thank Jimmy Carter in particular for the mess we have with Iran today.

Next to these explicit events that the Democrats either directly caused or explicitly supported the ambiguous and petty list you have in your post seems silly. I mean really, blaming the Challenger disaster on the Republicans? That's like blaming the weather on Republicans (oh wait, Democrats already blame the weather on Republicans).

Many of the other things in your list are really a stretch (either not bad - like the first gulf war) or just an exmaple of stupid government that has nothing to do with party (Katrina relief).

The Republicans aren't perfect but anyone with even a casual grasp of history can see that the Democrats, by far, have a long track record of being on the wrong side of history.

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lets see you forgot the energy crisis when we didn't have one.

you forgot the health care scare. which is still going on.

you forgot about the to many doctors scare. and now we don't have enough. it takes 10 years of school, and i don't know how many years after school to become a doctor. we also don't have enough nurses.

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The Republicans aren't perfect but anyone with even a casual grasp of history can see that the Democrats, by far, have a long track record of being on the wrong side of history.

your list is a haphazard collection of false information and fact-spinning.

Dem's are responsible for Communism and also started the Vietnam war? why fight it if they support it?

and also Dems responsible for segregation and at the same time get the Civil-Rights laws?

and they were the ones who put the Shah back on the throne against the well of the people of Iran?

and they started the Vietnam war?

and you want to build a superpower with no taxes?

and we should have stood idle while Germany are sweeping Europe?

and why didn't you list WWII also? A Dem was president during that one too.

and who pushed for the integration laws in the first place?

check the dates for the things you write and you will see who started what.

your response is a proof of what i said in the article: huge tendancy to lie , spin the facts and confuse the issue.

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